maemo.org - Talk - questions regarding Neo900 Shop

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- - questions regarding Neo900 Shop (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=95482)

Re: questions regarding Neo900 Shop

Quote:

Originally Posted by endsormeans (Post 1485456)

In conclusion (perhaps too brief) the project we support is not crowdfunding.

Hmm, as far as I understand PayPal's classification, there is "crowdfunding" (money used to finance - more or less - every step of the project, and the outcome of it all not being guaranteed), "pre-selling" (company has other sources for conducting its business, and sells additional items, which it is certain to deliver, given that the underlying effort is already covered by those other sources), plus presumably a number of other categories not relevant in this case.

According to this scheme, the Neo900 project would be very much "crowdfunding". As I understand it, it is PayPal considering us doing "pre-selling", which causes them to apply those restrictions.

Again, to my understanding, the principal difference is that crowdfunding is a "best effort", where all parties involved accept the possibility of failure, while any form of regular sales, which would include "pre-selling", considers failure to deliver in itself as a breach of contract.

If PayPal were to consider us as "crowdfunding", it seems that they would not impose such crippling restrictions.

So I'm afraid you may have sent a message that could be understood as being quite contrary to what you have probably intended to express.

When clarifying this, perhaps it is best not get too hung up on specific terms, but rather focus on the underlying concept: the funds sent through PayPal are expected to be used by Neo900 UG (e.g., for purchases, remuneration, services, taxes) long before any goods can possibly be delivered, the parties involved trust each other to act in good faith, and nobody has any reason to expect PayPal to exercise any oversight.

Disclaimer: Joerg has the final authority on Neo900 UG's official interpretation of all this. Alas, he's probably sound asleep at the moment, and I'm commenting without first checking with him because I think there is a risk of proliferating misconceptions.

- Werner

Re: questions regarding Neo900 Shop

I believe I clarified everything succinctly.
1- parts/products is tested.
2- parts/products are sourced.
3- we are told the cost.
4- we pony-up the money to do a sane bulk purchase .
that is my understanding in short...
wished the customer support to understand I knew...
and what I said.

Doesn't sound like either crowdfunding or pre-selling to me.
Sounds like something else completely

If any of what I just said (in short) isn't the process ..
then I am completely misguided.

Re: questions regarding Neo900 Shop

Email sent. I modified the template a little bit, this one's a bit more generic in the sense that it applies to NeoN board down payments too (the URL and quotation differ so it made sense to reword it and leave them out). Feel free to use it:

Quote:

Dear PayPal,

I made a payment of €xxx.xx EUR on xx xxxxxx 2015 to Neo900 UG, Transaction ID: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.

I understand that PayPal have frozen these funds in a "Reserve" on the recipients account in order to protect my rights against any risks. My understanding is that the funds have been frozen due to a dispute between yourselves and Neo900 UG as to whether this transaction constitutes as presales or as a donation for a crowd funded project.

From the very beginning, Neo900 UG made me fully aware that this "down payment" would be treated as a donation towards sourcing risk components for this crowd funded project. I am also aware that as this payment is a donation, I may not receive the final product in the event of project failure. Having said that, I do not want this project fail and it concerns me that by PayPal freezing the funds, you are directly affecting the outcome of this project and are contributing to its possible failure.

Please release 100% of the funds to Neo900 UG for the purpose they are intended to be used for.

I confirm that I have read the Neo900 UG Terms of Service [1], I acknowledge that it is a crowd funded project and I understand the risks associated with it. I also waive any rights to roll back the transaction unless PayPal fails to release the funds to Neo900 UG.

Thank you in advance for the attention you will be giving to this matter.

Kind regards,

xxxxxxxxxxx

[1] https://my.neo900.org/index.php?id_cms=3&controller=cms&id_lang=1&conten t_only=1

There was no BCC option available in the web form but I will forward any replies that I receive to keep you (Neo900 UG) in the loop.

Re: questions regarding Neo900 Shop

PayPal have replied, saying that Neo900 UG have received the funds. I think they are completely ignoring the part about the funds being frozen!

Quote:

Dear Luke Bratch,
Hi! My name is Chris and I'll ensure you get the best support concerning your query today.

Mr. Bratch, you have my assurance that Neo900 UG (haftungsbeschränkt) received €380.00 EUR less the receiving fee amounting to €7.57 EUR.

The receiver of your payment incurs fee since the transaction was tagged as a commercial payment (Payments for goods or services)

Nevertheless, you've done your part as the sender of the payment and sellers are properly properly educated that they'll incur fee if they'll receive commercial payments.

I trust that this information is helpful. Should you need further assistance please let us know.

Thank you and I wish you the best in using PayPal.

Yours sincerely,
Chris

I'll reply to get clarification about the frozen funds.

FYI PayPal tried to call me first, but I was at work. They then "emailed" instead.

Re: questions regarding Neo900 Shop

Quote:

Originally Posted by wpwrak (Post 1485459)

Yes, that's exactly to the point. PayPal lets me know that they had to decide whether our project is crowdfunding or pre-sale (no other choices). And they decided to classify us as pre-sales which automatically ensues the reserve we are suffering from.
They base this decision on what they think is insufficient information about the crowdfunding nature of the project and the risks this implies.

So please everybody don't try to explain to PayPal how Neo900 project works or has worked so far, just let them know that you are aware about the risks since you a) have read the TOS and b) you understood them and you also understood from beginning that this is crowdfunding in the sense that PayPal sees the difference between crowdfunding and pre-sales. *)

There's yet another POV on this, which would be along the line that the "down payments" are a payment for already accomplished R&D and sourcing of some few components, so that we can use the funds we used for financing that can now be used again to do further sourcing and R&D.
But this POV is not the argumentation path we are currently following , and for you, our customers for now the only important thing is to let PP know you want the funds on our account to get unfreezed and you are aware of the risks and you waive any rights to roll back their payment for refund.*)

Please use wicket's very fine template above, and refrain from detrimental incorrect explanations of details about the internal working of the project - we already provided comprehensive and more precise data about all that to PayPal

*) In case you actually didn't understand that Neo900 is crowdfunding with risks, please let us know so we can refund your payment right away now
many thanks
jOERG

Re: questions regarding Neo900 Shop

Sure thing.
I have no prob at all with not explaining anything or attempting to.
Especially when others are far more informed than myself.
My intent was not to make things more difficult ..
rather the opposite..
it was to illumine the fact others were in the same situation as myself and to find out as well about this problem of the freezing of funds even if they were gotten to the Neo900 account...

I simply did not see it as an either / or

A- crowdfunding
or
B- pre-selling.

More like C- "down payments"

That Paypal cannot see that 3rd option and it must be either A or B ..
that is too bad. ( there always should be at least a rational 3rd option in my opinion).

Re: questions regarding Neo900 Shop

Quote:

Originally Posted by endsormeans (Post 1485525)

I simply did not see it as an either / or

A- crowdfunding
or
B- pre-selling.

More like C- "down payments"

That Paypal cannot see that 3rd option and it must be either A or B ..
that is too bad.

IANAL but I am actually with PayPal on this. It is either A or B.

It all comes down to the payment recipient's obligations to you, the sender, if the project flops and you never see the product. The seller either has an obligation to refund you the money or not. There is no middle ground.

The question that is left open is whether it is A or B. PayPal is very much skewed in favour of the buyer. I am not saying that it is a good thing but you need to keep that in mind. Treating the down payments as pre-selling makes it easier for them to cover you, the buyer, so they choose that option as the default. You need to convince them otherwise.

Re: questions regarding Neo900 Shop

I got a similar reply.

Quote:

Dear xxxxxx

My name is Anna a representative from PayPal Customer Support. I apologise if the automated response were unable to resolve your concern.

By looking at your original email, I understand that you want us to release the payment to 'Neo900 UG (haftungsbeschränkt)'. Mr. xxxxxx, I have checked the details of the transaction under the ID (xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx). I see that the transaction happened last 22nd of May for €250.00 EUR. I give you my assurance that this funds has been credited to the merchant on the same date you sent it.

The payment has been sent on the same day and there is no review placed on it, we also did not put the payment on any reserve.

If your merchant is stating otherwise, please ask them to contact us so that we can inform them about it.

Thank you for your time and I trust that I was able to answer your concern.

Yours sincerely,

Anna
PayPal

Do you have a case ID for the dispute so that I can reference it in my reply?

Re: questions regarding Neo900 Shop

Quote:

Originally Posted by wicket (Post 1485541)

Do you have a case ID for the dispute so that I can reference it in my reply?

Sorry, there's no usefull case ID since there's no actual open dispute. Until they answer the FAX my lawyer sent to them. Please refer to Neo900 by name and by the email addr you see in your payment details. You might add "to: Risk Management" on top of message body, maybe they actually do the right thing then and forward to whom it actually does concern.

However

Quote:

we also did not put the payment on any reserve

is pretty interesting a statement.

Quote:

Ihre Anfrage (KMM88332119V41078L0-K--M) : ppEU
From: "Europeanservices@paypal.com" <europeanservices@paypal.com>
To: "mapSoN Reisenweber" <reisenweber AT web.de>
Date: 2015-10-06 Tue 16:18

Guten Tag, mapSoN Reisenweber!

Vielen Dank für Ihre Anfrage zu den Reserven in Ihrem PayPal-Konto.

Wir haben Ihr Konto überprüft und entschieden, dass die Reserven
bestehen bleiben bis dies aus Risikosicht nicht mehr nötig ist. Dies
basiert auf den Vorabverkauf (Preselling) der über Ihr PayPal-Konto
abgewickelt wird.

Die Einrichtung von Reserven ist üblich in der Finanzindustrie und
Standard für Preselling. Weitere Informationen zum Thema "Reserve"
finden Sie unter Punkt 10.4 in unseren Nutzungsbedingungen. Weitere
Informationen zum Thema Preselling finden Sie unter dem folgenden Link:
https://www.paypal.com/ie/webapps/he...topicID=&m=ARA
https://stories.paypal-corp.com/home...and-preselling
Wie angesprochen können wir bis zu 30% des Reservebetrages vor
Auslieferung der Artikel freigeben. Bitte laden Sie dafür bezahlte
Rechnungen an Ihren Lieferanten in Ihrem PayPal-Konto hoch bzw.
kontaktieren sie uns sobald Sie diese zur Verfügung haben.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen

C. P.
PayPal Risikomanagement
Telefon: 0800 723 4456 (9 bis 16.30 Uhr, Montag bis Freitag)

Quote:

Wir haben in Ihrem PayPal-Konto eine Mindestreserve gebildet
From: "service@paypal.de" <service@paypal.de>
To: "XXXXXXXXXXXX" <reisenweber AT web.de>
Date: 2015-09-04 Fri 12:12

Guten Tag, XXXXXXXX!

Als Bank sind wir dazu verpflichtet, Sicherheiten gegen Zahlungsausfallrisiken aufzubauen. Aus diesem Grund haben wir in Ihrem PayPal-Konto eine dynamische Reserve gebildet. Das bedeutet: Wir behalten jeden Tag 100,00% Ihres Tagesumsatzes ein, bis eine Mindestreserver von 200.000,00 USD erreicht wird. In Ihrem PayPal-Konto wird der Betrag als "Nicht verfügbares Guthaben" angezeigt.

Warum eine Reserve für mein PayPal-Konto?
Mit dieser Mindestreserve möchten wir sicherstellen, dass Ihr PayPal-Konto immer gedeckt ist, um Rückbuchungen von Kreditkartenzahlungen oder Lastschriften bedienen zu können, die nicht durch den PayPal-Verkäuferschutz abgedeckt sind.

Was geschieht mit meinem Geld?
Den Betrag von 200.000,00 USD behalten wir dauerhaft als Reserve in Ihrem PayPal-Konto ein, bis das aus Risikosicht nicht mehr nötig ist. Weitere Informationen

Haben Sie Fragen?
Unser Kundenservice hilft Ihnen gerne weiter. Sie erreichen ihn unter <0800 723 4500> (Mo.-Fr. 8.00 bis 21.30 Uhr und Sa.-So. 9.00 bis 19.30 Uhr. Kostenlos aus allen deutschen Mobilfunk- und Festnetzen. Falls Sie aus dem Ausland anrufen, wählen Sie bitte +353 1 436 9003 – entsprechende Auslandskosten können anfallen.).

Herzliche Grüße
Ihr PayPal-Team

Bitte antworten Sie nicht auf diese E-Mail. Dieses Postfach wird nicht überwacht, deshalb werden Sie keine Antwort erhalten. Wenn Sie Hilfe benötigen, loggen Sie sich in Ihr PayPal-Konto ein, und klicken Sie oben rechts auf einer der PayPal-Seiten auf den Link "Hilfe".

Re: questions regarding Neo900 Shop

They are acting as if everything is fine, and that Neo900 UG is taking pretending they haven't received the money.

I really hate PayPal.

Quote:

Dear Luke Bratch,

Thank you for getting back to PayPal. My name is Shermaine and I hope this email finds you well.

Mr Bratch, you 100% assurance that you have successfully made a payment to Neo900 UG on 18 May 2015.

It is good that you used your PayPal account to make this payment. In case that the seller is still claims that the payments is not showing on their account and they have not released the item, kindly follow the steps below on how to file a claim.

By opening a PayPal dispute, you can communicate directly with your seller to work out the problem. If you're unable to resolve your dispute with the seller, and you have taken all steps to come to a resolution, you may then escalate your dispute to a claim.

You can open two types of disputes with PayPal - 'Non Receipt' (for items you have not received) and 'Significantly Not As Described' (for items that significantly differ from the original item description). If you wish to open a dispute for non receipt of your item, please wait a reasonable period for your item to arrive.

To open a dispute on a transaction, please follow the steps below:

Go to www.paypal.com/uk and log in to your account.
Near the bottom of the page, under 'More about your account', click Resolve a problem in the Resolution Centre.
Click Dispute a Transaction.
Select the button beside the transaction you want to dispute, then click Continue.
Select ‘Item dispute’, click Continue and follow the on-screen instructions.

You've 180 days after the date of the payment to open a dispute. A dispute can be escalated to a claim by either party within 20 days of the dispute being filed, at which point we'll investigate and decide the outcome.

Thank you for your time.

Yours sincerely,
Shermaine
PayPal