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-   -   Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=82014)

balisingh 2012-02-09 22:14
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
how come there was never a symbian phone runnin on an armv7 processor?
i say this because web browsing on the symbians phones is horrendous.
nokia should have gotten a special processor made with a simple arm core with another arm v7 core. one for most simple tasks and another for web browsing and such. achieving best battery life while getting great performance.

zeebra 2012-02-09 23:23
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rugoz (Post 1158323)
I am not so sure the N9 would have sold 5 millions, but I wonder what kind of lumia sales elop expected if he starts blaming the salesmen.
It was always clear that wp7 wouldn't sell like hot cakes just because nokia makes the hardware. The hope is that nokia can push wp7 adoption above a critical mass.
no wonder he blames the salesmen. its difficult to sell something you don't believe in for a company that has sold out.

selling something you believe in with passion for a company with integrity, now that is easy.

bingomion 2012-02-09 23:29
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeebra (Post 1162889)
no wonder he blames the salesmen. its difficult to sell something you don't believe in for a company that has sold out.

selling something you believe in with passion for a company with integrity, now that is easy.
Wow yeah your right!
that's a good way of looking at it!:eek:

misterc 2012-02-10 00:21
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by szopin (Post 1162811)
[...]
As to WP being niche: Nokia/M$ just started ad capmaign in PL, it is huge. Don't watch tv and I still got hit. Friends who own tvs confirm it is there also. Time will show[...]
you / PL got hit by the same hurricane (in an espresso cup) then everybody else...
espresso cup <=> popularity / fan-base
how many ppl use LostDOS imMobilized in your country (how many of the ppl who told you they got hit have (or ever had...) one?
even if they can increase there market share by 100% (at what cost?), that's still going to be twice nothing...
alas, for NOKIA :(

ossipena 2012-02-10 07:32
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by switch-hitter (Post 1162848)
You can say that as many times as you like but it doesn't make it true. Show us the evidence.

The fact Symbian's sales and margins were growing (verifiable facts) and the fact Ovi was growing rapidly (verifiable fact) right up until the moment Elop made his EOL announcement tells an entirely different story. At the end of Q4 2010 (the last quarter before the Elop induced meltdown) NOKIA was selling as many smartphones as Apple and Samsung combined.
which part of the word scenario you didn't understand?

don_falcone 2012-02-10 08:05
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
...I'm swearing, the longer i have to read quite childish terms like 'LostDOS imMobilized' / 'LostDOS Paralyzed' and colorized characters / company / brand names (i thought this had been getting better in the meantime!?), someone will hit the killfile AGAIN.

GrimyHR 2012-02-10 09:29
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by balisingh (Post 1162861)
how come there was never a symbian phone runnin on an armv7 processor?
i say this because web browsing on the symbians phones is horrendous.
nokia should have gotten a special processor made with a simple arm core with another arm v7 core. one for most simple tasks and another for web browsing and such. achieving best battery life while getting great performance.
try nokia 700, you might be suprised

zwer 2012-02-10 09:47
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by qwazix (Post 1161739)
Had they kept quiet, and ditched Symbian this february, with 3 Lumias ready to ship, they would have much more customers going to the store just asking for the new Nokia.
Had they kept quiet, WP wouldn't even exist anymore. It was failing badly (it still is, but that's a whole other topic) and Microsoft needed somebody that has some weight to throw it around for their platform's benefit. If they kept quiet they, even if they were to move to WP, they would not be able to sell anything bearing that name a year later. That's probably why Microsoft wasn't a cheapskate in the whole deal and offered all those $$$ to persuade the Nokia board more easily - Microsoft desperately needed it. Nokia, on the other hand, needed it like a an arrow to the knee, as the past year has shown...


Quote:
Originally Posted by tebsu (Post 1162141)
Unfortunately, they cannot sell it, because its in Germany. Note, that its now 15:00 here so there are still some hours where people might request that phone :P
Why would they not be able to sell it because it's in Germany? There are a lot of things never released for the German market per se that are sold all over Germany. After all, one of the best-price web shops, notebooksbilliger.de, operates from Germany and delivers only in Germany and Austria, and they've been one of the first ones to offer the N9.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rugoz (Post 1162781)
Being able to play crysis on any hardware with a wifi connection certainly is progress. It means I don't have to buy a console/pc and game developers are not limited by particular hardware.
As the 'terminal experiment' in the 70s and 80s proved - there is a good reason why you need a localized hardware: breakthroughs in silicon advance much faster than breakthroughs in telecommunications. There is a reason it failed then, and there is a reason it will fail now - Moore's law simply does not apply to telecommunications.

If it did, even if we take a starting point of v.34 modems when the most nooks were ironed out, in 1994 we had 28.8 kb/s (bauds, but let's roughly translate them to bits), we'd all be sporting 120Mbps connections now. For WiFi the stats are even grimmer - in 2000 we had 802.11b with 11Mbps rate, so if the Moore's law worked we'd all be having 45Gbps WiFi connections now. And I'm not even calculating the availability and general demand that makes deploying such networks, especially wireless ones with their limited frequencies and interference, next to impossible. To move everything to the cloud and still have a wireless access to it, we'd need to move the frequencies a couple notches up to the X-ray spectrum as radio waves cannot simply pack that much data. It's a physical limitation, not a technological one.

And then you have the issue of creating a server (farm) fast enough to serve all those terminals with such high demands, which means you'd have to build a couple of nuclear power plants next to it just to supply it with a juice, and probably put it on Arctic as there's just no way to cool off so much processing at one centralized location... No matter how optimized the solution might be, it just cannot work...

Those who dream of clouds providing them with the processing power that their localized hardware is providing don't know the first thing about physics, electronics, telecommunications and general computing. Sure, as an experimental setup it can appear amazing, but connect 1B people to it and you'll see what is a clusterf.ck of gargantuan proportions.

don_falcone 2012-02-10 09:48
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by balisingh (Post 1162861)
nokia should have gotten a special processor made with a simple arm core with another arm v7 core. one for most simple tasks and another for web browsing and such. achieving best battery life while getting great performance.
...guess what big.LITTLE is for? Hint: this is just _beginning_.

misterc 2012-02-10 19:05
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
agree with your post's general idea(s) as well as most examples [...]
have however one point where i beg to differ, namely networking respectively speed thereof:

Quote:
Originally Posted by zwer (Post 1163065)
[...]As the 'terminal experiment' in the 70s and 80s proved - there is a good reason why you need a localized hardware: breakthroughs in silicon advance much faster than breakthroughs in telecommunications. There is a reason it failed then, and there is a reason it will fail now - Moore's law simply does not apply to telecommunications.
this is nowadays replaced (or resuscitated?) with / by Citrix; plain office clerk doesn't need a i7, not even a i5, leave alone 4GB of RAM to work.
the few users that do actual number crunching, Computer Assisted tasks (CAx) or the like can still get a "fat computer" and connect to the (Citrix) network for office tasks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zwer (Post 1163065)
If it did, even if we take a starting point of v.34 modems when the most nooks were ironed out, in 1994 we had 28.8 kb/s (bauds, but let's roughly translate them to bits), we'd all be sporting 120Mbps connections now. For WiFi the stats are even grimmer - in 2000 we had 802.11b with 11Mbps rate, so if the Moore's law worked we'd all be having 45Gbps WiFi connections now. And I'm not even calculating the availability and general demand that makes deploying such networks, especially wireless ones with their limited frequencies and interference, next to impossible. To move everything to the cloud and still have a wireless access to it, we'd need to move the frequencies a couple notches up to the X-ray spectrum as radio waves cannot simply pack that much data. It's a physical limitation, not a technological one.

And then you have the issue of creating a server (farm) fast enough to serve all those terminals with such high demands, which means you'd have to build a couple of nuclear power plants next to it just to supply it with a juice, and probably put it on Arctic as there's just no way to cool off so much processing at one centralized location... No matter how optimized the solution might be, it just cannot work...

[...]
i live in a residential area where i can get 120Mbps; admittedly i have a cable connection.
with ADSL i'd be stuck @ 20Mbps, but this isn't a technological limit (2010 stats) , it is administrative rubbish (Moore’s Law and Communications)
this is simply the result of monopolistic markets (national carriers / providers) where entering is difficult; and the administrative decrees that competitors have to be allowed don't do the trick, as (in the mobile market) T-Mobile's efforts to leave the US market prove.
nota-bene: in South-Korea, the available speeds are not a consequence of competition but of the government giving the national operator the mission to provide that service

the same situation (i.e. dominant position in the market) that made NOKIA feel very comfortable until it was too late.
when Apple started the iPhone and Google followed suit with Android, they simply had no idea what to do... they kept doing what they had been doing for years, releasing Symbian (or Maemo) devices with outstanding hardware, but not up to market's expectations.
and then, Flopocalypse...
Quote:
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many bad measures.
- Daniel Webster

patlak 2012-02-10 21:48
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by balisingh (Post 1162861)
how come there was never a symbian phone runnin on an armv7 processor?
i say this because web browsing on the symbians phones is horrendous.
nokia should have gotten a special processor made with a simple arm core with another arm v7 core. one for most simple tasks and another for web browsing and such. achieving best battery life while getting great performance.
Omnia HD (i8910), Vivaz and Satio are running on an OMAP 3, just like the N900.

Rugoz 2012-02-11 01:49
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
As the 'terminal experiment' in the 70s and 80s proved - there is a good reason why you need a localized hardware: breakthroughs in silicon advance much faster than breakthroughs in telecommunications. There is a reason it failed then, and there is a reason it will fail now - Moore's law simply does not apply to telecommunications.
Bandwidth increases faster than screen resolution.

kureyon 2012-02-11 06:05
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ossipena (Post 1162692)
3. Nokias priorities are their services on top of wp (in west), wheres the problem?
What services would these be? Seems that most of their "Ovi" services have or are going to be closed down. The only good part is their Maps, but ROI to date has been negative.

Quote:
4. Increased hw costs are temporary, have you ignored every piece of news from wp camp?
Whether WP bloat will run on low-end hardware remains to be seen. Remember, for decades what Intel giveth Microsoft taketh away.

Zoxir 2012-02-11 06:54
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rugoz (Post 1163384)
Bandwidth increases faster than screen resolution.
Bandwidth does grow but it is not controled by you. ISP will throttle it when they feel like monitor it and lets not forget all the pro "economy" laws that are being pushed everywhere giving mofos like RIAA and MPAA the right to cut you off without needing a court order.

ossipena 2012-02-12 08:34
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kureyon (Post 1163424)
What services would these be? Seems that most of their "Ovi" services have or are going to be closed down. The only good part is their Maps, but ROI to date has been negative.
buy lumia and competitor and see. oh, you could also use the internet for researching concerning the issue, but that could be way too complicated for most of the people here nowadays...

pycage 2012-02-12 12:17
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
The Nokia services I see on the Lumia are navigation, maps, music, and mail. The store is the Microsoft store.

ioncelmare 2012-02-12 13:02
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
nokia should blame people for being so stupid and don't buy their phone.
:)

youmeego 2012-02-12 13:32
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
it is not too hard to know why lumia did not sell, tiles and metro ms theme is NOT beautiful and boring.

kureyon 2012-02-12 14:33
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ossipena (Post 1163809)
oh, you could also use the internet for researching concerning the issue
It was more of a rhetorical question since IMO Nokia have no compelling services. Except for Maps, and only because it can be used offline (except for the miserable N900 version - which to add insult to injury often does not even work online!)

GrimyHR 2012-02-12 14:39
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kureyon (Post 1163955)
It was more of a rhetorical question since IMO Nokia have no compelling services. Except for Maps, and only because it can be used offline (except for the miserable N900 version - which to add insult to injury often does not even work online!)
not only because they can be used offline but because unlike all other maps, nokia maps have street numbers for croatia, second is the garmin with much less detail and all others are useable to find a street here at best, so all other maps are CRAP when compared to nokia(which are also free unlike all other at least decent maps)

Dave999 2012-02-12 14:50
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
If nokia launched a lumia Note with a 5,5" screen and a 6 row qwerty and an updated version of office and the top of the line hw im interrested. The lumias of today could not be sold even if ms gave it away for free.

marxian 2012-02-12 15:08
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Norris (Post 1163966)
The lumias of today could not be sold even if ms gave it away for free.
They have been giving them away for free. I have one that will probably end up on ebay soon. £65 to test my own application on my own device? Fvck you, M$.

pycage 2012-02-12 15:38
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Norris (Post 1163966)
If nokia launched a lumia Note with a 5,5" screen and a 6 row qwerty and an updated version of office and the top of the line hw im interrested. The lumias of today could not be sold even if ms gave it away for free.
480 x 800 on a 5.5" screen? That would surely look awful! :)
And higher resolutions are forbidden for WP 7.x by Microsoft.

GrimyHR 2012-02-12 15:47
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pycage (Post 1163999)
480 x 800 on a 5.5" screen? That would surely look awful! :)
And higher resolutions are forbidden for WP 7.x by Microsoft.
it doesnt look awful on 7" when used properly(around 50cm distance from face...)

ibrakalifa 2012-02-12 15:56
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
come on its better developing maemo6 rather than talking bout that sh*tty WP,

kureyon 2012-02-13 03:33
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Norris (Post 1163966)
The lumias of today could not be sold even if ms gave it away for free.
What if they gave a free N9 with every lumia - that should work :D

ossipena 2012-02-13 07:00
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kureyon (Post 1163955)
It was more of a rhetorical question since IMO Nokia have no compelling services. Except for Maps, and only because it can be used offline (except for the miserable N900 version - which to add insult to injury often does not even work online!)
Point bolded. Some average cellphone buyer might be tempted for example with Nokias deal to be at least the first one to get EA games to their cellphones.

http://www.liveside.net/2011/10/28/e...indows-phones/

Zoxir 2012-02-13 07:43
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kureyon (Post 1164257)
What if they gave a free N9 with every lumia - that should work :D
That could work but people would just be like thanks you can keep the Lumia.

danramos 2012-02-13 07:53
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ossipena (Post 1164291)
Point bolded. Some average cellphone buyer might be tempted for example with Nokias deal to be at least the first one to get EA games to their cellphones.

http://www.liveside.net/2011/10/28/e...indows-phones/
Yes... and the last ones to get everything else.. or not get most apps that people want at ALL. Microsoft's ecosystem is still very small and growing very, very slowly. Very slowly. Very. I doubt that is an attractive proposition to the average cellphone buyer despite EA.

Dave999 2012-02-13 08:13
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danramos (Post 1164305)
Yes... and the last ones to get everything else.. or not get most apps that people want at ALL. Microsoft's ecosystem is still very small and growing very, very slowly. Very slowly. Very. I doubt that is an attractive proposition to the average cellphone buyer despite EA.
True, that's why I love my n9! It's for the guys and girls with fine taste...a delicat phone :D

youmeego 2012-02-13 08:43
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
what will he blame on for the first quarter 2012 (very likely very poor and very disappointing) nokia sales? blame iphone users for being lazy to learn tiles and metro?

Isamun 2012-02-13 09:30
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Sooo brave.

Zoxir 2012-02-13 09:50
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by youmeego (Post 1164319)
what will he blame on for the first quarter 2012 (very likely very poor and very disappointing) nokia sales? blame iphone users for being lazy to learn tiles and metro?
Blame solar flares for changing the magnet field of the earth which makes people not like the amazing everyday :D

rcolistete 2012-02-13 11:07
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by marxian (Post 1163980)
They have been giving them away for free. I have one that will probably end up on ebay soon. £65 to test my own application on my own device? Fvck you, M$.
Don't waste your time with WP7, keep your time to making softwares for Maemo & MeeGo :cool:

ossipena 2012-02-13 12:52
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danramos (Post 1164305)
Yes... and the last ones to get everything else.. or not get most apps that people want at ALL. Microsoft's ecosystem is still very small and growing very, very slowly. Very slowly. Very. I doubt that is an attractive proposition to the average cellphone buyer despite EA.
this is all about the commenters preferences. I know a lot of users who are fully satisfied only with the EA games, and another lot who are fully satisfied when they log on to their office365 with lumia....

for me that sounds like step 6/5 with maemo aka the step nokia couldn'n anticipate in 2005: cloud services.

raghavmurali 2012-02-13 20:26
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
can we vote elop out of nokia. is anyone from board seeing this.

gosh 2012-02-13 21:01
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danramos (Post 1164305)
Yes... and the last ones to get everything else.. or not get most apps that people want at ALL. Microsoft's ecosystem is still very small and growing very, very slowly. Very slowly. Very. I doubt that is an attractive proposition to the average cellphone buyer despite EA.
When Microsoft eco system is big enough eco systems isn not important anymore. With apollo you will be able to compile C++ code for windows phones. C++ works on other platforms and it is easy to port apps. HTML5 is also something that will make eco systems less important.

WP before apollo will never get a good eco system. It is C# and WP lacks important functionality.

Cue 2012-02-13 22:06
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ossipena (Post 1164291)
Point bolded. Some average cellphone buyer might be tempted for example with Nokias deal to be at least the first one to get EA games to their cellphones.

http://www.liveside.net/2011/10/28/e...indows-phones/
First WP cellphone to get their games, there is a difference. They are not the first cellphones to get those games. So that itself is a loss since other platforms have had those games earlier already. I bet the low sales of WP allows EA to do things like this in this partnership since convincing them to give up potential sales on other WP7 phones is not that hard seeing as they are not giving up a large market.

ibrakalifa 2012-02-14 01:43
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
go to gsmarena.com

voilaaaa, N9 got better and better position, where is that WP??, LOL, wake up nokia wake uuup!!

kureyon 2012-02-14 16:50
Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoxir (Post 1164303)
That could work but people would just be like thanks you can keep the Lumia.
Doesn't matter because MS could still claim that as being sold. MS has been cagey about WP7 sales - they only seem to give out the number of units "shipped" rather than the number of units sold. And by shipped they probably mean the number of licenses sold to manufacturers, eg HTC buys a bulk license for 500K units, but has so far produced only 100K devices and have only sold 20 to end users (these numbers have been pulled from thin air for illustrative purposes only).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ossipena (Post 1164407)
for me that sounds like step 6/5 with maemo aka the step nokia couldn'n anticipate in 2005: cloud services.
I thought the whole business with that Ovi crap was to do with "the cloud" and services?


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