Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Somebody seems to have forgotten MS/DOS's heritage and why it was bought (aside from being a cheap and desperate need to quickly give SOMETHING to IBM after already selling an OS they didn't yet have, it was easy to port CP/M apps and commands onto... at least, originally).

Also... faught? I laughed. Hard. So hard, I nearly faughted. :) Couldn't be a typo--If you meant 'fought', it's a long way from o to a. :) Sorry, sorry.. it's silly, but man that's a weirdo misspelling.

Suggested reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CP/M#MS-DOS_takes_over

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

wtf dont forget ATARI on this list :)

I remember bying my first 486 PC with windows 3.1 it was a ****ing downgrade from amiga and atari. Then come first beta of wiindows 95 and killed both atari and amiga. but I am still sure ataris os had a chance to win if not Microshit had marketikng windows like hell.

no it seems history will repeat and WP kills Meego and then Android in some year as mass market device in west.

but still I will buy n9 I will never buy wp****.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

You are starting to be creepy, very creepy. So what you are saying is that my misspellings are wrong, they are not correct misspells. Well, I'd rather be the one with incorrect misspells than the one who points out the incorrectness of the misspells any day.

Forget about CP/M. Even though CP/M vs DOS is somewhat interesting stuff, it is irrelevant in the context of mid to late 80 - early 90 computer wars.

And yes, Atari must not be forgotten.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

I was a registered third-party developer with Atari Corp. for AtariDOS (8-bit) and GEM/TOS (ST/STe/TT/Falcon) computers. I didn't really get into Atari's MiNT OS and Commodore's AmigaDOS until later but by that time I was already dabbling in Linux and the Commie vs Atari wars were dying down and PC's were the way to go and I started to really like Windows 95. :) Thanks for mentioning Atari!

Yes, yes. We've already figured out you'd rather be in the wrong--even about CP/M and other historical and technical details. :) No need to point that out too--in fact, why WOULD you? You're weird, man. Weird. ;)

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

LOL, well what relevance is there between CP/M and DOS and late 80s - early 90s battle for market shares between Commodore, IBM PC (and clones), Atari, Apple etc ?

Besides, already back then (mid 80s) I knew where the world was heading - towards MS and PCs while others wandered aimlessly in all the wrong directions (Amiga, Apple, Atari) and for all the wrong reasons, mainly that of being fanboys.

Another thing danramos, if you don't want to discuss the topic, then at least stop responding to my posts. You are a millimetre from ending up on my ignore list (if this site got it that is).

Edit: found the ignore list, and danramos is on it :D

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

MS Windows 95 was built on MS DOS, which was culled/modified from QDOS when IBM requested a DOS system from them.

DOS remained at the core of their operating systems until the WinNT kernel became mainstream - namely Windows 2000, which has further spawned WinXP, Vista and now Windows 7 as well as their server products.

It's relevant in the same way that Berkley Software spawned the paths that lead to all BSD based UNIX out there - GNU project included (inspired it at least)... which spawned MINIX and GNU/Linux.

Now, with that nonsense aside, the battleground included Commodore, Apple (with an UI), Amiga (with an UI), IBM, Microsoft and quite a few other players - Digital, WANG, Atari, Tandy, Sinclair and many, many others. During those days, competition was the norm... not so much now.

Back to the so-called subject at hand. Elop as a trojan horse begs to ask one question... how did the board of directors truly fall for the whole "ecosystem" sale pitch from Microsoft and it's not an environment that many people in Europe utilize, support or have shown to be able to access or shown willingness to get behind.

That's like selling fire to people in Hades (note: hyperbole).

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

MS is the best thing that happened to nokia. MS made a mistake of going with nokia. Nokia is a loser

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

oh ATARI, no wonder why u so grumpy. you jump on dead platform alot.

i guess u now make apps for windows phones another burning platoform.

@gerick, board of directors is american blindfold one, the company success looks like more smart engineering from way on below them, rather their execution.

under their wing Elop sold macromedia to adobe, the guy have story of selling stuff.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Add everyone to your ignore list and OWN the thread! Or as someone once put it: "to tell your name - the livelong June - to an admiring bog!"

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

the board of directors fell prey to years of brainwashing by the likes of McKinsey (who painted visions of future involving profit made from ecosystem vs profits from a free open OS.) Obviously that was biased given 5he consultants' own experience.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

*the (typing from N900)

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

You know there's an Edit function right? Also works from N900 :)

It's been said before, but ecosystem (which is a real word which has been lifted from biology, a field where it actually means something) in this context does in fact equal locking down.

As ysss pointed out, making money from open standards is hard. But unless you're on the MSFT board or a major institutional shareholder, why would you be in favour of this "tight integration" BS? What possible benefit is there to you the consumer? The same things can be achieved with open standards without trapping your cash!

Yes, some devs make money from the Fruit Store and Android Marketplace... but most do not in fact make a fat stack of cash. It's actually Steve J and friends who benefit most. So if you wish to slam open standards, please don't play that card.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

This is where I have a problem. Microsoft Windows Phone 7 sales numbers do not lie. It's not a big seller at all.

So with that said, it's just bad management.

McKinsey... same Enron, Kmart, Swissair, and Global Crossing McKinsey?

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

I'm checking stock tickers and market news for these companies, but apparently they don't exist. Stop making up stuff to scare us!

:rolleyes:




(Yep, that McKinsey)

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

WHOA!! I did not even know... wow.

That... explains it all. Holy damn.

If Elop is a trojan, McKinsey is straight cancer.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

>> What possible benefit is there to you the consumer? The same things can be achieved with open standards without trapping your cash!

This is one of those "men are from venus and women are from mars" moments.

For the upteemth time - consumers dont give a SH1T what about open vs closed. They CANT be in FAVOR of "closed", because they dont know the difference. All else being equal, they will not buy the product with the "CLOSED" sticker rather then the "OPEN" sticker (and vice versa).

All they care about is this - they pay X $$$ to get Y if they like Y.

They will support companies that give them stuff they want for $$$, REGARDLESS of whether it comes from a CLOSED or OPEN philosophy.

Mainstream consumers will NOT actively fight for "Open" as they have enough **** to deal with in their everyday lives without getting into some abstract geeky religious war.

Getting mindshare in this day and age is hard enough - trying to get mindshare with an anti-sexy concept like FOSS is like tilting at windmills. I have better things to do with my life.

You want to push OPEN ? Start a company that releases products that embody a standard - if you can get these products to really SELL, others will start to follow (accessories, apps whatever) and as the controller of that standard, you can then OPEN it or whatever.

All else is empty hot air is whining about the lack of JUUUSSSTICE(tm) in this world.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Yes, but you've missed the...

Agreed, but you...

Uh-huh, and in fact I agree with you that the majority of...

Hold on there a minute Don Quixote, I think you misunderstood what I was trying to...

...and breathe :rolleyes:

Whether you realise it or not, your whole post is a naked & shameless straw man.

I never said consumers will fight for open standards. I have made enough posts in this forum and elsewhere on the interwebs where I argue that in fact they will not.

To re-iterate: what I am saying is that I prefer open over proprietary, and so - in my opinion - should anyone who:

• understands the concepts involved
• does not stand to benefit financially from closed/proprietary systems

For example: I prettymuch guarantee you're using at least some open standards right now. And open software. Like it or not, know it or not.

Or perhaps you prefer collecting hardware and software which together comprise one-off proprietary pieces of garbage which work with nothing else and become defunct within a year or two, prompting you to shell out more cash for a replacement which has all the same flaws but is a bit shinier...?

In the absence of any interesting news about the N9 these last few days, I'd say well-argued and reality-based attempts at rebuttal of my actual stated position are welcome. Good luck with that.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Oh dear God, nooooooooo! Not ericsson's ignore list! Anything but THAT! I DID try to cite materials to point out more ACCURATE history to prove my point instead of trying to debate on his revisionist history... sooooo I suppose it's a badge of honor to be on THAT ignore list. :)

Speaking of revisionist... You apparently decided to filter out the parts where I mentioned that I also touched on the PC and Windows 95--but I guess that DID die eventually, right? Aren't you glad I went with Maemo? Say--why did YOU choose to hook up with a dying platform? :) ...I mean, you DID say I seem to jump onto them... and here I am.. and here you are, too. HELLO! :) Oh the delicious irony of myopic debate. heheheh

Case in point in your favor... after a certain point, customers WILL eventually start demanding openness. i.e.: Here in Massachusetts, there's a big push (with lots of yard signs and an upcoming citizen vote) to MANDATE a right to repair law... http://massrighttorepair.com/ (based on the broader movement in the US at http://www.righttorepair.org).

Just saying... customers DO want it, and there IS a breaking point. (This isn't the first time.. this is why automobile OBD2 protocols were standardized and made law in 1996, too).

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Cool - had never heard of ODB2, but it's an interesting OT read. Thanks.

My theory: informed consumers are more likely to make choices which end up benefitting them. A positive feedback loop.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

kmart is sears? we had a SEARS here. closed due certain bad management, then license expired.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Yup! Back in 2004. http://money.cnn.com/2004/11/17/news...0/sears_kmart/

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

it have nothing to with being open and closed true, u can have open source store and third party premium working on ur same device.

only reason iOS managed to get it ecosystem because convince good third party to make contend for it. regardless its platform it closed. idiots buy the apps.. others pirate it.

it brings profits. market share low but u can bring hundreds on apps purchaces and people buy ur crappy device because to keep using the app (like blackberry messenger) they need a device.


and probably its the only reason blackberry is alive,
a few months ago i went to cancel my contract and they were trying to sell a bold 9780 for 800$ for a old woman probably around 50s. telling her in contract she could get it for 299$. her bold wasn't even that improvement. other camera. but she needed her blackberry messenger. simply she didnt know better.


the closed OS bits, its just to make developers fell at peace, people wont pirate it. or its gotta be hard to be, bad for them people will...people do...even closed OS like iOS or WP7

general idea of open source = free apps=competition, easy to pirate.
the good thing is other than games, every app and more hacks have bee done n900 han iOS-android put together.

reason why i prefer open-OS , u dont require company to fix it problems. someone else can.

my n82 will never get update again, but it music player still have database problem they never fixed or ever will.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Despite the fact that I like my Android devices, I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

too bad we still need NOKIA to release the darn device, huh?
well, as MeeGo is now "open-source" @ least, any other company may start selling a MeeGo device too...

hopefully with a mSDHC slot
possibly the only reason they didn't include it was to make the 64GB version attractive :mad:

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

I, for one, look forward to serving our shiny new Intel overlords. Can't be any worse than Nokia treated us.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

well at least it support mass storage.

iphone useless without itunes. and wnidows phone 7 its worse with zune software (zombie platform):

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Intel makes CPUs, video (in-)capable GPUs, chipsets...
but no devices, nope :confused:

well, if they only make the Atom family (under whatever name) mobile phone compatible, that would already be something. still wouldn't mean m$ would switch to it, neither, but considering the "platform" and "software" (3rd party as well as 1st party) aspects, it would make utter sense; in fact the only condition under which all that "3rd party software" babbling would ever make ANY sense :mad:

and would ultimately mean that MeeGo could run on any device LostDOS Paralysed runs on too :D
questionable in how far m$ would allow that.
then again, they get their $$$$$s when the device is bought, so why would they care what eventually runs on it, right?
and no more complains that an update bricked the device ¦-))))))
but no more $$$ trickling in from 3rd party software market :eek:

wondering :confused:

EDIT: the only reason why Intel would be better then NOKIA (is it, really?) is because they don't manufacture any devices themselves, thus they have no interest into locking consumers into one;
then again, once an Intel CPU platform for mobile phones is available... you'd need AMD (or NVidia or TI or ..........) to provide an alternative; same old story, all over again :(

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

16GB, mass storage :eek:
whom are you trying to fool? :confused:
:D ;)

i can still use my N900(s) with the 8GB mSDHC i originally put in, but that's only because i ended up putting the MP3s on ~/MyDocs and periodically move PICs & VIDs to the PC :(

the iPotato 3G i got a couple years ago is used as "USB stick" on a pair of loudspeakers, but honestly? 16GB simply doesn't cover it :mad: (any more)
and if you want to start to install NITDroid or Mer or ............., well, it starts getting very tight, doesn't it?

EDIT: who was pointing out USB as being an "open standard"?
well, the rotten iPotatos are a sad example how even a hardware "open standard" can be abused :mad:

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

yeah right! The winner of this deal is Microsoft! now they have acces to:

The best phoneengineers on lowlevel coding
The best hw enngineers
The best Maps
The best camera phones

list goes on

Now what will has Microsoft that Nokia is so desperatly needing? MIcrosoft crap ecosystem yeha

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

there will be no other company using meego on handset atm they making money on Android so why the **** would they go meego? In some years MicroNokia release wpsuck and the others will follow that **** but so when my n9 is rip there probadly is nothing for me.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Come on now. You are underestimating Microsofts service ecosystem.

Hundreds of millions of Live Mail users will run to buy Nokia's Wp7 phones. It's important to have your spam email-account and phone OS from the same maker.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

well in the end i think nokia will start making android smartphones by the end of 2012.


@rauha i am not sure if u being sarcastic or not :(

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

You know things are extremely bad when sarcastic comments of past have come true.

2007: "LOL iPhone to rule the smartphones business within a couple of years? Nokia should just fire their current CEO and hire someone with desktop PC experience (SAY MS) to replicate Apple's 'suck-cess'"

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

general idea is / are okay, but lot'a inaccurate details...

references, pls? :D

and how could they let Flop (apparently) cast away MeeGo or state that the N9 would be the last MeeGo device?

hardly anything around NOKIA seems to add up lately.
usually the sign that something (important) is missing in the view of the topic @ hand, more generally NOKIA right now.
e.g.: a geek device without keyboard? :eek:

a bold explanation would be that Flop is a marionette not sent by Blamer but used by NOKIA's board for some "ultimate goal"...

Hades is the Greek's underworld, the world of the dead.
Tartarus was somewhat equivalent to hell, but lacks any fiery element until its romanisation.
hyperboles are fine, but try to be accurate pls.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Lol. You really think after this -> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/07...ent_shakedown/

manufacturers are going full steam ahead with android as their only os? I think meego, webOS or other os's are going to be used more in the future. Android is going to lose marketshare in 2012.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

i have my (not so SPAM loaded) frozen mail on my N900 :confused:
is that a bug?
(less spammy then Yahoo! because i use it less, thus it is less known...)

@ jo21 :rolleyes: ;)

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Oracle is currently suing not manufacturers but Google directly for the unlicensed use of the Java technology (which it acquired together with Sun).
i don't think they intend to stop Android, but getting a (free) income from a successful operation is always attractive.
remains to be seen how Google is going to translate the charges if they have to pay :eek: :o

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Yes, this is also true. Talking about free os :)

I think Vanjokings "it's like peeing in your pants"-comment is starting to be a bit more spot on.

One big question is still wp7. I personally think Nokia will not use it as their main smartphone os in 2012.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

this is a FREE market.
they can offer whatever crap they want, nobody has to buy it.
and it seems that this is what it is turning out to be :rolleyes:

like i hinted @ in my post 434 hardly anything @ NOKIA currently seems to make much sense. could be a hint that we are missing something

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Since someone was wrong on the internet, and since you two guys managed to get the other thread closed, I'm gonna post this here, so eat me.

What you quoted is true, in one form or another, for every device, but for what I was talking about, this is the only quote that matters: