Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 

Exactly. How could this happen again

Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 

Problem is that you have to be sure when you announce the delay. At this point (about half away of current delay) they might not have enough information themselves if additional delay is needed or not. So they might give an empty statements with informational value of "it may or may not be delayed", but what good would it do?

Jolla's PR has much more responsibilities than pleasing small portion of small community. There are partners, possible future partners etc. and even they have to get the information from development to be able to present accurate information. It's also a question, how much that PR can and should burden the development and would you be happier if they give delivering some nice-to-know information higher priority than delivering the product. I prefer latter, but it's of course a matter of personal preference.

Yea. Maybe they should cease creating products altogether, so we can be happy. No more mistakes. :)

Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 

So basically keeping the only and future customers is not much better?
Is there also a possibility to say something like "we are heading to release and as for now we hope it will be released at this month as currently there are no expected problems, but we still not finished and we'll keep you updated if there are any other unexpected changes will be met on our way" or "I know we are already 2 month late, but unfortunately we still have the problems, we hope we'll solve them in next X time, but as it not only depend on us (we still have HW screen problems), we can't promise certain date"
And it was me, dyslexic, non native English speaker. But i bet they have copywriters and PR people who can even make it better.

The small amount? I think you missed that there were 3 people and a high amount of TOHs (most Jolla fans got it) or you think that that Jolla sold billions of tablets? Just take a proportion of company with about 50-100 or now even more people vs 3 people and you'll see that for those 3 people they made not less work that Jolla. I think actually here loved by all "small resources" should be used, but toward TOH creators :)

And about partners, i bet those partners get details and information, and Jolla decide to make crowdfund project, they should consider crowd as partner and funder. It was there decision. Thye can't use supporters only for money. There are costs to this and that's not how it works with those projects. They can't just make this kind of project with crowdfund and act as it's regular one. You can see great example of Pebble doing it, they also did it with both watches and second time as not indie company, but already mature one. They also have limited resources and own product altogether with OS.
As i mentioned before, 3rd party companies that actually can make applications and HW addons for Jolla, actually would not make any, as all they see is delay and no futher info. It only bad for Jolla, as without apps and 3rd party support, all you have are Android apps, but then again why would i buy Jolla to run Android apps?

And do you really think that person that works at Jolla office do not have any clue? Or PR and communication people only come once in few months for few hours? Or do you think they have only one computer and as they type posts, devs wait for them to finish? No one here asks for all details.

True, but we and even Jolla itself talked about it from first day, but after few years the situation is the same, and that's what people should pay attention to. It's like the kid's story and the boy and wolves. Who just for jokes cried "wolves, wolves" everytime just to bring attention, while there were no wolves, but at some point when wolves came and he cried, no one believed him, as previous times he just lied about it.
Someone mentioned here how a lot of questions that Jolla got on meetings got no answer. And i would take SIP as an example, I remember back when i was at Jolla IRC, one of sailors said it's community part now to make the SIP integrations, but AFAIK community now made their part, but nothing came from Jolla. So Jolla are easy on pointing out how it's community responsibility, and when community makes it part, they just disappear.

EDIT2:
Oh you mean to stop development with community? They did not even started... They only talk about it. They did not make it easier for devs, didn't/don't provide info when it was/is needed. Actually they talk more about co-operating with users, just to make non-tech fans, who do not see whole picture and mass media to think how it's opensource and transparent, they use those words a lot. They promote this way. That's cheap PR. They just saw a huge opportunity in maemo and alike FOSS and linux fans and when Nokia was gone, they used it. But after all words are words, but deeds are deeds. While they do contribute to some opensource projects, but you need to understand that those projects they use, same as NVidia and even Microsoft contribute to opensource projects. And even few of them are the projects that most devs now work for Jolla(mer), so it would be logical for Jolla to control it and use it in own goods with option to limit devs/users where it's needed and use them(devs/users) for own profit. In analogy — while lately hackatons became popular, many companies now use them for own benefit, while the whole point of public community hackaton for not-profits, but today instead of paying money for devs, some companies just give T-shirts and small prices to "make" hackers want to work for free and make products.
Using opensource spirit and fooling hackers is the new way of corporations to control and use them ;)

Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 

I was just told that TOHKBDv2 team made about 1,5k keyboards and it's about 3 ppl in team. While Jolla at least have 50 people(i think it's about 100, but who knows) and external resources, fundings and connections as a company... So do the math...

Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 

I prefer accurate information, not speculative announcements which basically boil down to "it may or may be not"-type of non-information. It doesn't add anything. Currently it has been announced that they will deliver at the end of July and if there is really nothing to add to it, either to confirm the day the deliveries start, or that they need another delay, I don't see any reason to announce something.

Yea, and compared to Tablet or phone, it's way simpler. You really cannot compare those projects in any way.

Partners get the relevant information, they don't get all of the information. I have already seen how excessive fixation on reporting and fancy graphs made once agile company go almost to death spiral and it was not fun to be on board at that time. So I don't really welcome reporting and announcements if there is a) cost for development and delivery and b) it doesn't add anything concrete, in addition to please couple of people. Getting the product into delivery should be the priority now, and it's also the wiest way to spend that crowdsourced money. At least I paid because I wanted the product, not some freaking reports every couple of days.

Well, if it¨'s really that bad, why are you here? Why not jumping on board with all those others who make and do everything way better than Jolla ever did and ever does? :)

Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 

Are you serious? So with that logic they can have as much delays as they want without telling? So after 2 years the Jolla will release tablet and it would be okay with you?


True, you can't compare 3 indie people making huge project with HW and SW parts all by themselves, including some soldering (both manual and automatic, but at own place) with company who have employees, $$$, 3rd parties involved(who help with drives and HW), outsourced production (they do not manufacture or assemble parts, do they?)

And did you get the product?
And again i don't get how writting once in 2 weeks/month post is spending money when they have people, whose actual job to do theat and they pay them salary, doesn't matter if they write post or not. And it doesn't involve developers. Even more, when one of co-founders finds time to give a TED-talk about community driven, opensource made by community tablet, which is mostly untrue as we see it now, spending money on that PR, but not to inform people who actually funded the project...

And you know what, Jolla actually told they'll write those post and even specific post about display details. But i think it's top secret now for reason as problem is not solved, or they want to write post after tablet released? I think not. Then if post is not here and no info, maybe there is no screen and there would be no July release?
Are you that sure that there would be July release? And if not, would it might be sept if not nov, as there are upcomming holidays.
And in your logic there is no need to inform customer that 2 month delay may easily can be 5-6 month delay. And i think Jolla has to tell on this matter. It's not week or two.
And believe me if it happens, they'll again appologize after they fail to see it, as there would be not 5 people writting post on how it's actually problematic, but whole angry mob and bad reviews on sites and blogs. So which is better for them? To make some small posts to inform now once in few weeks/month or to have huge rants and negativity after?
I do understand you wanted to mention that you was on board of some company, but it's irrelevant. There are a lot of boards in different companies with different people. And not all make good decisions as whole boards and not all members are useful (not a personal, just pointing out how it's irrelevant).
Stop thinking corporation, otherwise you get another android or even apple (afaik apple is based on *nix and use a lot of opensource projects, mostly bsd so they do not opensource anything, same as Jolla with their BSD licensed components. You see that they opensource parts they have due license and do not opensource parts they can, as in their model business like in Apple's one, opensourcing something is bad, they want mostly profit, and even play it as card "we are opensource lovers". But how long this game will continue? You can make profit with opensource products, i'm not asking 100% opensource, but at least something they can actually may use word "opensource" in all their cheap PRs)

i would ask opposite, why Jolla related stuff here, if Jolla declined to use maemo as communication platform. And here is FOSS, linux fans community with opensource and hacking spirit, that was way before Jolla, and i was member way before Jolla. So is it me or Jolla in wrong place?
I think i'm in right place and talking on right subjects in right way actually. Though if you don't want to see topics like that you can try to discuss and have constrictive conversation on Jolla based forums or other platforms..... Oh, wait... There is only mess TJS which is forum and FAQ and bugtracker and whatever monster combine it is :)
P.S. Not trying to hurt anyone, just little bit of sarcasm and actual facts to the point when someone tells me, I'm in wrong place, like it's Jolla private forum :)

Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 

Just like to point out, none of the other alt. platforms could give a rats *** about this community, you burn bridges with Jolla, you burn bridges with everyone. Oh, except for maybe Neo900, but who are we kidding, that's always going to be uber-niche, even more uber-niche than Jolla/Sailfish (which is crazy uber-niche). Sure, we still have the legacy platforms, & maybe that'll be just fine -but for how long.

Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 

I don't see Jolla doing it too. Yes there are few fellows that are from Jolla here (most of them were here before Jolla). Yes we speak here about Jolla. But AFAIK Jolla refused to use TMO as something related to them. And it's not like TMO alive because of Jolla, though there are a lot of Jolla related topics, but this is because a lot of people find TMO useful place with a lot of info and strong(and once mighty) community. Same as there are Tizen(there are guys here who participate), Ubuntu(few members here now work for them, btw including ex-intern from Jolla) or even WebOS discussion. Just happen to be, people here more interested in Jolla and there is no more useful and comfort platform to discuss(TJC is not that), while tizen and ubuntu have a lot of other places.

Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 

I think your sense of scale is a little off here, there was 1200 keyboards made and rough guestimates put the number of Jolla Phones at around 50k-100k. This isn't really "most Jolla fans" as you put it.

Bringing a smarphone to market with a new operating system not based off android is a monumental achievement, the TOHKBD project kinda pales in comparison. Of course the TOHKBD guys did a fantastic job and I hope everyone is happy with their keyboards, and it also does not excuse the radio silence from Jolla about the Tablet, but comparing the two projects really is like comparing Oranges to Battleships.

Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 

Hmm, it seems you're forgetting the discussions they had with us here before TJC was implemented, they explained in great detail at the time why they felt it wasn't right to use here, Stefano in particular was constantly posting & explaining why, you seem to be (conveniently?) forgetting all of that. I'm not excusing their total absence here (& their own infra. to some extent) though, there can be no excuse for that IMHO.

FFOS, Tizen, UT, & WebOS (which is still mostly a twinkle barring TV's & STB's) communities couldn't give a rats about this community, you make it sound like discussion of those platforms is on a similar scale to MeR/Nemo/Sailfish discussion here, it's not even close. Discussion of those platforms here is pretty much non-exist comparatively speaking, it makes sense why that's the case, because Sailfish is the natural successor to Maemo/MeeGo, folks interested in those other platforms (like I am), go elsewhere to get the "real pulse".

Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 

I wouldn't argue, I just want to mention that even the number (i think they said they'll publish it) of tablets is not advertised their. And as i see it, it's not even 50k.
from jolla campaign page:
While price is more than 200$ (and there is shipping cost)
that would be about 12700 tablets (there are other perks like covers right?)
and other quote:
So i'm not sure how many but not 100K :P
And again they are company vs 3 people, and OS was there, it's not like they did it from scratch. It's HW that supports Android and there are people who ported Sailfish to other platforms from community without even internal code and resources from 3rd party HW.
So yes, it's not the same, but again if you don't like TOHKBD example, check Pebble Time(own HW and not copycat tablet(Jolla tablet is not that original in HW wise) and OWN OS that they had to totally redesign and even keep backward compatibility. Btw they had campaign after Jolla or about same time and watches are already out there) or any other project that gathered way more than Jolla and not bigger than Jolla, but they had no problems to communicate with community and even change things according to feedback.

Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 

I just read campaign page again and guess what?
I wonder what Dave feels about his post on TJC or all the votes and info about paid apps (top voted for year+ and started by Jolla with no progress or info)

So they do not have to inform us, but this quote from their campaign page. I have mixed feelings.

Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 

AFAIK there was some drama between Jolla and Council(or one person from Council) as i heard. But not sure

And yes i remember that one of the first things that Stefano told with new account. It was that he had root password to this forum or something like that. I just don't get it or take it serious when co-founder's first introduction is kinda of showoff (like in one of the first community meetings his nickname was something like "DaBoss" or something like that. It's just shows the difference in the ways people see things between maemoers, linux geeks, hackers on one side and him on other :)

But i think the main reason is that they wanted to be in control. They talk about community, but they do everything by themselves and want total control. That's not how FOSS works and "transparency" is not related to that.

But it's too late now and not that relevant.

Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 

You seem to be exercising some very heavy character assassination here, I wonder why, can you please point to these claims you're making, they're very serious & should be backed-up.
Make sure that what you reference proves exactly what you're trying to suggest i.e. not your interpretation, but the actual facts of the matter.

I suggest you re-read what they wrote at the time;
It wasn't unreasonable, many folks were in agreement & understood where they were coming from, there certainly wasn't massive outrage after it was all explained.

It has since fallen far short of the original lofty ambitions, sure, no disagreement there...

Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 

If you look again you will see I was referring to the number of Jolla Phones, not the Tablets. But given this is a thread about the Tablet that's an easy mistake. However they are going to be stocking up for general availability so I wouldn't be surprised if they did a run of at least 50k for the Tablet, if not considerably more given a 2 year sales timeframe.

I agree with you on the communication thing though, the point is perfectly valid, the idea that they lack resources to put up a blog post every few weeks is rather laughable, although I question this notion that because a project is publicly funded that it has to be developed in public view as well, it seems to be the convention but I don't see it as something explicitly required by the crowdfunding model.

Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 

And here is his introduction to IRC meeting of community, where #info is used to introduce yourself, and i don't think it's proper place for sarcasm and jokes.
here is log:
http://merproject.org/logs/%23mer-me...04-15T15:08:46

Maybe it's me overreacting, but I can find as well tweets from my first conversation with him on twitter (when i had no idea who he was btw and just mentioned something about jolla), where he compared Jolla and Sailfish to Beethoven creating sonatas. But it's irrelevant, there are different people and I hope he is not only one making decisions.

Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 

Indeed, it's not a law. But it tells you somethin about company and please read the qoute in my post above from their campaign page — it tells different point of view :)

Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 

TBH, I genuinely think it's a misinterpretation, but I'll leave it for him to explain further, I can't speak for him...

I'm done here, I prefer to spend my energies on something constructive/useful...
I just don't go out of my way to try to prove why companies or individuals are in some way evil or negligent, just not something that interests me, no matter the co. or org.
I think most people are good not bad, & they usually have the best of intentions, but everyone's world view is different.
Can they always do better? Absolutely! Can Jolla do a metric **** tonne better? Absolutely...

I refer you back to several posts (inc. a few of mine) that've already posited that we structure all of our issues/concerns in 1 central location, & that we get Jolla to address them.
They've been receptive to such an approach several times in the past, I don't see why they wouldn't again...
It's sux we've gotten to the point where we must present all of our concerns right under their nose again, but if they at least address most of them*, then that's all that matters.
I'm not organising it though, I'll leave that for someone else....


*& give commitments to address most of the remaining contentious ones within a rough time-frame

Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 

Wow, what a thread. I go away for a day and it grows 6 pages. Yet you get the same old arguments and speculations, while all that it needed to put a stop to it all would be ONE post from Jolla. Oh well...

One post stands out above all:

It might be useful to also point out another small difference. Dirk was posting updates about the TOHKBD progress all the time. When there was a delay - and yes, there were a few - he posted about it immediately, with a proper explanation. And guess what? No endless arguments and speculations. What a surprise.

Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 

Still waiting like the rest for the famous / infamous screen posting from Jola. Actually preordered phone and tablet now but like so many geting more frustrated about the lack of soonish communication.

On a side note one of the biggest finish tech retailer got their preorder of the tablet up: https://m.verkkokauppa.com/fi/produc...v/Jolla-Tablet

Interesting....but of course no timetable.

Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 

The thing though, is that a whole lot of these posts are by just a few folks. In the last six pages, my count stands at:

ZogG: 18
jalyst: 13
Dave999: 6
JulmaHerra: 5
ggabriel: 5
szopin: 4
bluefoot: 4
pichlo: 2
r0kk3rz: 2
mikecomputing: 1
MartinK: 1
P@t: 1
strongm: 1
hemiwi: 1

So, in short, this is mostly just a few people posting the same points over and over and over at each other. :)

And, honestly, I don't really understand this thread at this point. I'm sure it's somewhat cathartic to air your complaints about Jolla, but this complaint about "lack of communication" is bizarre. Maybe I've been watching the computing industry too long now; I've watched Nokia burn itself to the ground, watched as HP transitioned from a company that created the most highly reliable products in the industry into one which sells the cheapest-built trash on the market, watched as Apple is slowly trying to turn all of its desktop PCs into big, non-upgradeable iPhones. There are certainly far worse things going on in the electronics industry to gripe about.

Ultimately, there's still a month to go before we even reach the point Jolla targeted as when they would potentially start shipping tablets! :eek: As they have already successfully launched a cellphone, I would expect they'll get everything into working order and get the hardware out, whether or not they manage to hit their original deadline...

Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 

How do you get 13 from me, what date time are you taking it from, I get ~6 (including this) over the last ~24hr for my total post count.
*EDIT*
Nvm you said "last 6 pages", so you were tallying over the last ~3 days...

Anyway if you read my 2nd last post, I more-or-less said the same thing as you, I don't see the point any more, unless something more useful's actually done.

Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 

Um...no? Where did I say something like that? I said that it's not wise to announce something if one is not sure about it's content, tentative announcements would be both annoying and harmful. It shouldn't be too difficult: if they cannot at this point be sure that additional delay is needed, or that they definitely will not need one, there is no point in announcing anything into either direction. Announce only when you are absolutely sure, not before if it's in any way possible.

Well, if you truly insist that HW KB is really, truly and honestly as complex project than designing new Tablet, setting up manufacturing, QC, software etc. and at the same time updates to existing phones, then by all means it has to be like that. There's no other possibility. Please forgive me the ignorance of overestimating things needed to build functioning Tablet. :)

I'm waiting for it and I trust to have it. Unlike some other people, I wasn't that surprised that there was two months delay. They announced the delay, reasons behind it and we are now within month of expected delivery date, so next thing I'm waiting to hear is when they will deliver them, or if they will need another delay. So for me there is enough information for now. It would be completely different thing if we were in this same situation at the end of the month without hearing anything into either direction, but before that, I expect them to deliver information only when they are sure. It should be something like 2 or 3 weeks.

And do I interpret your view correctly, if I say that you really expect them to do nothing else in any other forum if they are not communicating with you everythin you want them to communicate?

Possibly. Then again, what would you do with that information? Start as unofficial QC-operative? Or continue bashing Jolla for "they couldn't get even that right on first try"?

No, but as I have said repeatedly, I expect them to put all priority to get the delivery done in July. Instead of nice chit chat about things that doesn't do any difference in results.

I said I worked in company and I saw it's rise and fall to the brink of bankrupcy. I was also in the position to see the reasons behind that fall and what happened after that. Since then I have moved on. Of course you can dismiss it as irrelevant, as you can do just about everything that doesn't fit your opinions. But still, my experience is that excessive bean counting, reporting and all misplaced priorities, bureaucracy etc. that results because of it can easily kill a company even if there is nothing wrong with the product itself. Such things should always bring added value to core business, generating more income for the company and improving efficiency within company. Otherwise they have no value.

I'm not an open source advocate in any way, even if I work with open source products daily. For me there is always a business side of things, also because I need to provide for my own family which means there has to be some business to be done even with those open source parts. So, as long as I'm not financially independent in a way that I wouldn't have to work at all if I don't feel like it, I won't submit to single ideology instead of pragmatism.

As for Jolla, I do understand that they will need to make some money somehow, or there will be no new products, no Sailfish or not much anything. Community will never be able to pull those through by itself (not least because of inherit trait of communities to fall towards infighting when difficult decisions have to be made). But of course if you see corporate side to be simply "bad", then I can only say that our views are different.

Well, I remember you being very opposed of idea of anything Jolla related being here in the first place. So they did their own platform on TJC. Reasons why Jolla related stuff is here is because Sailfish is a direct successor of Maemo/MeeGo projects, done by very same people who participated in Maemo/MeeGo development. If you wish, you can ask Maemo Council to remove and ban all discussion related to Jolla and Sailfish. Might be a quiet place after that though.

Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 

My browser is breaking this thread into pages of 10 posts each, with the current page being page #46. So, in order to collect about 6 pages worth of this thread, I started at page #40 (post # 391), dated 7/2/15 at 5:47 am (EST), and counted up from there. This is also the page where Pichlo's post (#393) exists, so it seemed to be the appropriate page for me to start with...

Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 

See my updated post... ;)

Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 

Some people say we get nowhere. I say just by discussing we are moving forward. NoW we just need jolla to move with us. Bad news, good news, release news...doesn't matter. Share, move, iterate, share move, iterate...

Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 

News incoming soon™!

https://twitter.com/JollaHQ/status/617221574425493504

Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 

Sooooooon!

One more to 140 buyers...jolla waiting for 140 buyers in this thread. The only logcal thing to do...I think this coming week be the week of weeks with one of the two missing blogposts.

Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 

Jolla Soon next device, don't be just in time, be unlike!

Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 

ROTFL

it's my post I hacked Jolla's twitter accout muahaha


trolling

Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 

We have now 140 buyers in this thread. Jolla, release info today. Yes, that's a direct order!

thank you to all voters out there.

20 days to shipment according to jolla.

Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 

Where is that from? :)

Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 

jolla blog. End of july.

jolla has choosen to ignore my and others questions about info update both at indiegogo and together.jolla so the only thing we can assume is that we are on track according to their 2,5 month old info.

to late to cancel now...they choose the road of silance. worst crowdfunding I ever attended. Hope the product will be cool though :)

Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 

Hmm. End of July is still 25 days away today by my count. Also, Jolla only said that they'd targeted end of July as when they would try to start sending out tablets (and only to Indiegogo contributors), not a guarantee:

Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 

I made a countdown with some help from the community (styling ;-) ) if anybody has trouble with math: https://gagv.org.uk/jollatablet.html

Also: https://instagram.com/p/4ysaWpD8L0/

Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 

nice pile of cases. looks sexy :D ship it...first cases ship around july 15th...

And if you didn't order a lastu and changed your mind they give you a discount right now.
http://lastucase.com/product/lastuca...let-pre-order/

wonderful work. nice one. the clock is on to first shipment ...

maybe its time for the releasepartythread soon.

Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 

Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 

https://www.dreamboxsireland.com/wp-...oto_119959.jpg

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/52108582.jpg

Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 

So that's what, another 4-6 weeks of delay at least?

Re: Jolla tablet countup to delivery[Now With Poll]
 

So if you ordered from indiegogo, there's no choice of material (walnut only)

Also saw a tweeterthing stating indiegogo case will be shipped together with the mythical tablet :D