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maemo.org - Talk (https://talk.maemo.org/index.php)
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-   -   Let's talk Nokia stock! (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=56370)

Dared 2012-05-08 02:34
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
Anyway it's been proven that Elop is a Microsoft mole; in the AGM he said that he had secretly been working on a Microsoft phone before they made the decision/announcement

danramos 2012-05-08 03:41
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by szopin (Post 1203228)
http://www.microscope.co.uk/blogs/ne...20Features.JPG
Wait... what the f.... ???


Quote:
Originally Posted by zimon (Post 1203270)
Oh, so not always.
I also have problems because the permissive multitasking with N900. I use FM-radio alot, almost daily. I like to surf on the web at the same time while riding a bus. Quite often when using a news portal, I tend to get 2 – 4 windows open and then FM-radio is swapped out. Also if I try to take a photo while listening radio, often FM-radio is swapped out and stops. Sometimes N900 becomes quite unresponsive. I'd rather have web-pages swapped out than FM-radio.

I've tried the same use case with Galaxy Mini quite much during the xmas break. No problem, although I had web pages open, FM-radio listening and camera. Radio did not get swapped out nor failed to play. The device keeps going being responsive.
Galaxy Mini does have 128 MB more RAM than N900 though, but that was not the reason it worked because I also opened much more web-windows.

We cannot expect a normal smart phone user to use top or similar programs to monitor what happens in the system to make sure it is fluent to use the device.

Android could have a developer-switch, when activated would turn into permissive multitasking mode with a warning. BUT, if this would lead to "lazy"-applications which would rely user to run it always in this developer permissive multitasking mode, it would be a bad thing and would harm the "ecosystem".

N900 was not and is not suitable for a "normal" smart phone user partly because the "real" permissive multitasking. Plain user would not accept the device going unresponsive so often, but would think the device is broken somehow. For us who know what is happening and why, it doesn't matter so much and we can try to avoid the situation by not starting too many processes.

If Nokia would sell Samsung Galaxy S3 type of hardware, which would have PureView-camera, and OS would be (community driven) Cyanogen Android with Qt-support included; I think most of the t.m.o users would be happy, and at least Nokia stock owners because that kind of device would sell alot, tens of millions.
Why would it need a developer switch? If you're going to be all 'I want it my way' anyway, then just load up a custom ROM and do it ANY WAY YOU WANT--even with kernel tweaks and all RIGHT from the UI. Like so...

http://pleco.org/nok/aokp-pref-2012-05-07.png

In case you wondered, yes--that's my own phone running AOKP (Android 4.0.4). Here's a launcher snapshot just for show:

http://pleco.org/nok/mydesktop-2012-05-07.png

It just seems like you're going to an ARJUOUS length to get to a place that's already been explored in Android and explored well and thoroughly a long time ago. Been there, done that.

You want ways to monitor the system? On top of all the battery, bandwidth and other graphs and monitors it already has built-in, you can also peek at tools like SystemPanel. Have a look at it. Good enough for ya?

http://lh3.ggpht.com/vyY5jmBL6tvrqUX...BY-Bso2R3LB_2A

Plenty of choices of such tools in the Android store. This just happens to be the one I like and use. I do not feel a lack of suitable and impressive applications nor do I feel as if I lack any ability to drop to a shell to bash around or ssh out or anything. Nokia might never be able to make up for so many setbacks for as many leaps and bounds of improvements as Android has made in very short time. It's a shame, considering how far ahead Nokia HAD been. "Potential Unrealized."

volt 2012-05-08 09:36
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
Mmm. Since we're on the topic, I much prefer Maemos multitasking over Android. Android stops my activities where Maemo didn't. Android is not my friend.

I've been using the ZTE Blade for longer than I was using the N900, currently on ICS.

danramos 2012-05-08 10:13
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by volt (Post 1203417)
Mmm. Since we're on the topic, I much prefer Maemos multitasking over Android. Android stops my activities where Maemo didn't. Android is not my friend.

I've been using the ZTE Blade for longer than I was using the N900, currently on ICS.
My context was that Nokia continues to trip and blunder and it is highly unlikely to come back from it at this rate. And yet, the stock price continues to fall despite your preference. Pray, do tell us how you think Nokia still has a chance and how it might come back. I'm sure you can convince us with your stellar multitasking and your continuously operating activities!

ibrakalifa 2012-05-08 10:25
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
not a blunder, its already own goal, XD

mikecomputing 2012-05-08 10:52
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danramos (Post 1203427)
My context was that Nokia continues to trip and blunder and it is highly unlikely to come back from it at this rate. And yet, the stock price continues to fall despite your preference. Pray, do tell us how you think Nokia still has a chance and how it might come back. I'm sure you can convince us with your stellar multitasking and your continuously operating activities!

actually they may have a chance on tablet market when they release the first windows8 tablets. That way they may push nextgen wp too.

I dont like it but still its seems only way. I mean seriously the board cant be THAT stupid in strategy as it looks today?

or maybe they are....

volt 2012-05-08 11:12
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danramos (Post 1203427)
My context was that Nokia continues to trip and blunder and it is highly unlikely to come back from it at this rate. And yet, the stock price continues to fall despite your preference. Pray, do tell us how you think Nokia still has a chance and how it might come back. I'm sure you can convince us with your stellar multitasking and your continuously operating activities!
Did I ever imply anything other than Nokia lighting up their own platform? I have no love for Nokia, I just think they did a few very good things with Maemo. And other things weren't good at all.

I don't even own a N9 (but the prices are interesting nowadays), I own a Android phone. Also, I think it would have been much wiser of Nokia to embrace Android than not. Maybe the same product molds across operating systems... Might have mentioned that before ;) A slow and less dramatic adaption to Android (and Windows 7.0 too) at an earlier point would have saved them from the disastrous 2011, I really do believe. I don't know if that would have been the most advantageous strategy, but I do think the one they chose was possibly the least advantageous.

As I wrote elsewhere, I believe Nokia has chose a really stupid path. I believe they have passed the point of no return. I believe for them to continue to exist as an independent company, it's too late to change strategy and they must make Windows 7.5 work somehow till Windows 8 comes, and they must force Windows 8 to be something good and sellable.

I believe all this means that Nokia is ****ed beyond repair unless they whip a dead Microsoft horse back into the race. And I don't see how they could possibly manage that without being Microsoft, when Microsoft hasn't managed at all while being them.

I would much have preferred to have an OS that didn't toss out programs while I was using them, but that's an entirely different discussion. I still dream of an Intel-inside i386-compatible phone running an OS with as many services as I want. With decent multicore usage, and some resources reserved for prioritized instant phone usage. This is a dream, not a hope, but at least Maemo had elements worth dreaming of.

Android is a tad behind on those things. And way ahead in most other things.

danramos 2012-05-08 11:28
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikecomputing (Post 1203439)
actually they may have a chance on tablet market when they release the first windows8 tablets. That way they may push nextgen wp too.

I dont like it but still its seems only way. I mean seriously the board cant be THAT stupid in strategy as it looks today?

or maybe they are....
I suspect that for the same reason that people stayed far away from Windows on the phone, they will also stay far, far away from Windows on a tablet: Nobody WANTS Windows. People have TOLERATED Windows on the desktop at the suffrage of the games and software they wanted or needed. This isn't the case with phones or tablets anymore. Microsoft is far, far behind in tablets despite trying to deliver a tablet to market for well over a decade and failing miserably every time. Why should this any different? Because they made a crippled version for tablets? Because they're putting out a trailing edge contender for specs? Because the platform is just rich with the software people want and need? I truly suspect Nokia has no chance--just like all the other Windows mobile platform has turned into so much garbage for the other manufacturers who've since abandoned the Windows platform. Nokia is looking more and more likely to stand alone on this burnt-out platform.


Quote:
Originally Posted by volt (Post 1203449)
Did I ever imply anything other than Nokia lighting up their own platform? I have no love for Nokia, I just think they did a few very good things with Maemo. And other things weren't good at all.

I don't even own a N9 (but the prices are interesting nowadays), I own a Android phone. Also, I think it would have been much wiser of Nokia to embrace Android than not. Maybe the same product molds across operating systems... Might have mentioned that before ;) A slow and less dramatic adaption to Android (and Windows 7.0 too) at an earlier point would have saved them from the disastrous 2011, I really do believe. I don't know if that would have been the most advantageous strategy, but I do think the one they chose was possibly the least advantageous.

As I wrote elsewhere, I believe Nokia has chose a really stupid path. I believe they have passed the point of no return. I believe for them to continue to exist as an independent company, it's too late to change strategy and they must make Windows 7.5 work somehow till Windows 8 comes, and they must force Windows 8 to be something good and sellable.

I believe all this means that Nokia is ****ed beyond repair unless they whip a dead Microsoft horse back into the race. And I don't see how they could possibly manage that without being Microsoft, when Microsoft hasn't managed at all while being them.

I would much have preferred to have an OS that didn't toss out programs while I was using them, but that's an entirely different discussion. I still dream of an Intel-inside i386-compatible phone running an OS with as many services as I want. With decent multicore usage, and some resources reserved for prioritized instant phone usage. This is a dream, not a hope, but at least Maemo had elements worth dreaming of.

Android is a tad behind on those things. And way ahead in most other things.
I can agree with some and disagree with some of what you've said. Ultimately, though, behind or ahead, the stock is still diving despite what you or I wanted out of Nokia. Nokia preferred to ignore us, the customers with the money, and has suffered the consequences--as it should.

volt 2012-05-08 12:14
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
I think, that they've ignored more than mere customers to get where they are today :B

rcolistete 2012-05-08 16:54
Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zimon (Post 1203270)
Oh, so not always.
I also have problems because the permissive multitasking with N900. I use FM-radio alot, almost daily. I like to surf on the web at the same time while riding a bus. Quite often when using a news portal, I tend to get 2 – 4 windows open and then FM-radio is swapped out. Also if I try to take a photo while listening radio, often FM-radio is swapped out and stops. Sometimes N900 becomes quite unresponsive. I'd rather have web-pages swapped out than FM-radio.
You should know that :
- Nokia N900 has only 256 MB of RAM and Maemo 5 is a full Linux distribution;
- Nokia N900 GUI can become more responsive with many tweaks available by the community (swappolube, etc), kernel-power with overclocking, etc;
- web pages open in Maemo 5 are full desktop web pages, not mobile versions, so there are web sites that take a lot of RAM;
- FM-Radio is a extras repository software, if it is unstable (I don't know, I don't use FM radio on my N900) or have problems, don't use it and/or report the problem to the community;
- Nokia N900 & Maemo 5 OS is a mobile computer, like a netbook using Linux, so if there are many heavy softwares open, then the OS can become slow. It is up to the user decide which softwares should remain open, for how much time, etc;
- with freedom comes responsibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zimon (Post 1203270)
I've tried the same use case with Galaxy Mini quite much during the xmas break. No problem, although I had web pages open, FM-radio listening and camera. Radio did not get swapped out nor failed to play. The device keeps going being responsive.
Galaxy Mini does have 128 MB more RAM than N900 though, but that was not the reason it worked because I also opened much more web-windows.
So what ? The cited softwares are possible well implemented in Android. The fast app switching of Android takes your freedom to decide when to close the softwares, so you have less work, less responsibility, it is easier for many users.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zimon (Post 1203270)
We cannot expect a normal smart phone user to use top or similar programs to monitor what happens in the system to make sure it is fluent to use the device.
top, htop, conky, etc, can be run after the user suspects some problem, i.e, detects the N900 is slow, the battery doesn't last, etc.

Nokia N900 & Maemo 5 OS is a mobile computer IMHO, so I expect the same user behaviour when using a netbook with Linux. The netbook user has the freedom to run everything, but it should know, for example, that OpenOffice will take 10-20 s to open, that Thunderbird, Firefox and OpenOffice open at the same time = lag, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zimon (Post 1203270)
N900 was not and is not suitable for a "normal" smart phone user partly because the "real" permissive multitasking. Plain user would not accept the device going unresponsive so often, but would think the device is broken somehow. For us who know what is happening and why, it doesn't matter so much and we can try to avoid the situation by not starting too many processes.
There are some N900 users who are normal users. They barely install softwares, they don't tweak Maemo 5, etc. And they are satisfied due to some unique features of Maemo 5 OS and/or Nokia N900 : nice qwerty keyboard, almost full web desktop browsing experience, etc.

But I agree that the typical N900 user tweaks it, install a lot of community softwares, etc.

I am posting in this topic just to defeat some general comments that appear sometimes :
- iOS & Android are Linux : no, they are not Linux (but have some Unix/Linux pieces);
- iOS & Android & WP7 have multitasking : no, they do not have multitasking as it is the OS that decides when to close the softwares. They have fast app switching or another funny description.

Anyway, IMHO, the best mobile OS and celular phone for each user depends on each needs and desire. For some users, a Nokia Asha 303 with Series 40v6 is a lot better than an Nokia N9, iPhone 4S, Galaxy S2, for example.


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