Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

On this note, I don't understand the colored pledges on Kickstarter.

Does everyone who pledges over 120e get to customize their colors?

Why are some of these limited, while others are not?

Good news anyway, but please do put some sense into the pledges ;)

Thanks!

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

Price, to kickstart the ks going early supporters get to save a few euro

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

The KS is not finished nor yet fully funktional. Quoting "This is not a live project. This is a draft shared by Dirk for feedback."

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

No, I said 'black' ;) Like the one on the teaser/photo of the design.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

"Estimated delivery: Apr 2015" :eek:

Really!? :( So it's not ready at all?

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

By april 2015 Jolla has propably released a new phone. A bit risky if that one does not support old model TOHs.

Jolla should get into this thing. How hard can it be to realise that everybody wants a HW keyboard on their phone?

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

Answer: it absolutley does not. For me, the point of having a hardware-kb is twofold:
1.) being able to type properly, on real keys. You know.
2.) being able to see the whole screen while typing.

On the N900, I would routinely use the arrow keys for moving the cursor by just a few characters, or rows. For moving it a longer distance (or to a different text field... ), I would just tap that area on the display - like clicking on a desktop. You know. Arrow keys again if I missed it by a char or two. Perfect.
All that while with no vkb blocking the view ever, you could keep the text of a whole e-mail visible. Perfect.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

yes, blank = no keys engraves = black

Well, the design is ready and contracts are ready to be signed. April is on the safe side, would rather deliver ahead of schedule than late.

Development can go a lot faster if I have the funds, hence the campaign.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

Exactly my thoughts.
What toggles the vkb (while cursor is in a text field) should be the hw action of opening/closing TOHKBD.

Dirk, can you confirm:
1.) in current OS version (Uitukka), the vkb can never be completely hidden? Otherwise, why don't you do that?
2.) 3rd party/community can't make the vkb go away completely, only Jolla can? Just saw that that known issue is in Tahkalampi!
May already gone in Uitukka? Anyone using it already? Haven't seen it in the changelog...

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

guys guys guys chillout, this is sw side, don't bother dirk with it, do i need to mention that hwkbd rev1 has no keyrepeat? this is easy once 500 ppl upvote this on tjc
and it can definitely be done without jolla, see patches/hacks, still willing to bet 100€ jolla will help when time comes

plus tohkbd is open source, even my nonprogrammer self helpedbwith pageup/down and few remappings, 500 guys will have a few decent coders for sure

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

I have carried my Nokia E7-00 for 4 years now because of the QWERTY keyboard. I keep two spare E7-00 handsets at home that are scavenged just for parts for the working phone :-(

Bought my first Jolla yesterday, and am waiting to be the first in line for TOHKBD from India.

Request to Dirk: Please include the Kickstarter link in every one of your posts so that more de-hard fans like me can sign up fast!

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

Highly unlikely, that.
There are no plans for a followup device currently that I am aware of. I would be very surprised if there's going to be a next model before the end of 2015.

Another thing besides; as the TOHKBDv2 is made of 2 separate pieces, it is of course going to be possible to later create a different upper piece that fits a possible change of the device interface, leaving you with usable keyboard part.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

I have to disagree with you guys here :D

The physical look & feel of the device is of huge importance, it means a lot what the backside looks like or what the typing feel is, how sturdy the thing feels in your hand.

The stuff you describe above is software, it can be changed easily afterwards to suit all the needs of the user. No need to worry about that.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

The KS draft has the goal set at 55000 EUR, which at ~120 EUR apiece means that there must be at least ~450 backers lining up for a HWKB, which is a sizeable number (e.g. compared to active TMOers)
Hopefully dirkvl got his estimations right.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

Any link to the kickstarter tohkb page?

Edit: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...token=02e2365d

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

I think the project could have used some 500+ € options for those with too much money in their pockets and willingness to sponsor ;) For example: 600€ to get TOHKBD v3 working proto in addition to TOHKBD v2 (coloured), 2000€ to get a working proto for every TOHKBD version you're making ;)

EDIT: There could also be some company collaboration package at some pledge level. Just throwin' some ideas I've seen used by other KS projects :D

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

I also hope there will be enough backers.
Not sure there will be...
But I understand it's not possible to produce a device like this for a reasonable price if only 50 people will buy one.

Let's hope there will be enough! I'm definately in!

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

Its such a cool thing for the Jolla. My wife and I are probably in for two 100 euro....if we get to place them in time. Guess they will go quick.

Actually, Jolla should sponsor it. Its good promotion of the device. Much better than all Stella Angry Birds and design-TOHs in the whole world, because this is something that is useful.

TOHKBD2 brings us all back to the time when smartphones were practical and efficient. In total contrast to the touchcrap out there that has taken over.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

While I agree that the look and feel of the device is of huge importance, it must be noted that the software side also has a huge role in the "feel" part, and the real question being asked here is "is it true that it can be changed easily afterwards", or in other words, is it achievable (will it be achieved at some point?), technically? I will of course buy a tohkbd2, but we need a word on that matter because this is definitely part of the "consumer-ready" argument advertized, be it in this thread or in whatever thread Dirk, Kimmo and Andrew think is better.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

Great work, Dirk, well done!
I hope it will be (much) earlier then the proposed april next year, I think a lot of people are eager to Christmastree goodies ;)

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

christmas is not going to work, but april is on the safe side. but one bad shipment can easily cost a month, so i'd rather be on the safe side. doesn't mean i won't strive for an asap deliver :)

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

Talk to this guy. He might help you...

http://www.jollausers.com/wp-content...99904394_n.jpg

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

Given the size of the goal and the possible 5-6 month lead time, I think the success of the KS campaign will revolve around the generosity and number of benefactors (those pledging above $140) as opposed to simple buyers.

The lead time may be an issue ... since one would imagine that a new Jolla will have been announced some time prior to fulfilment and may already be available. It may be that it retains TOH compatibility, and it may be that Jolla have let Dirk know as much (though in my opinion this would likely result in another very compromised device) but I don't think there's any way that Jolla would announce that now.

Either way, good work and good luck Dirk et al. Will probably make a pledge, though won't go for TOHKBD (however much I pledge) as I can't see myself still using the Jolla in April of next year.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

Hey, @dirkvl, I've got an idea for an additional perk or maybe a stretch goal:

It is clear that many phone cases won't be compatible with the TOHKBD, but there are some manufacturers that can produce custom cases for any size you specify. I have an especially good experience with FitBag - it's handmade and looks and fits great.

You could add a custom case for this TOHKBD, make a perk for, say 160EUR and make more money on it. It's easier than trying to learn german and typing in exact dimensions (which may change during the production anyways) when you just send a perfectly fitting bag/case without even having to handle it ;)

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

What is this? The big perk-suggestion-day? Ok, I'll play along.

1. Ikea perk. Get all the parts assembly yourself.
2. Complete perk. Jolla device + tohkbd
3. Random perk. When ever the perk reach 200 eur a lottery kicks in and a winner is select from the contribution list.
4. Buy two is better than one. Bundle two.(slightly lower price)

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

I don't see how it wouldn't be compatible with the new Jolla phone. 4.5" is still a common smartphone size even in late 2014 (note that I'm talking about smartphones, not phablets). So there's not any real reason to up the screen size thus upping the dimensions making TOHKBD incompatible. Unless they're gonna go the Motorola way and fit a 5" display in a 4.5" body w/o any bezels but then how would you minimize an app? No bezel = no side swipe to minimize.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

But, but, but... TOH size matches the body size, not the screen size. So going the Motorola way would have no effect :)

(Sorry for OT.)

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

That's what I said. If they wanna up the screen size while maintaining the body size, they'll have to go the Motorola way. But I don't see them doing that because there's no bezel then and how would you minimize an app w/o the bezel?

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

Hey people where on earth you get the idea that a new model is going to be available anytime soonish? :confused:
This is just wishful thinking IMHO, there has been no announcement whatsoever and AFAIK no work being done on updating the HW platform. And why should there be, the current HW is pretty neat and usable right now.

Maybe in a few years time, when there is something technologically new/exiting/useful available it would make sense to upgrade the HW platform.
With Jolla it is not about getting the newest HW, it is about getting the most exiting SW platform.

Besides, as I speculated in http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...&postcount=449 it well might be possible to adapt the TOHKBD to a new HW interface pretty easily/cheaply.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

Are there any space for Qi charging reciever in the back cover or in the keyboard piece?

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

How will the campaign start play out?

1. A new countdown
X. Dirk just open when ready
2. Surprise. Anything is possible

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

@flegmatik: Starting to get kind of doubtful about this Qi-thing anyway. Fixed one for my wife and me. A bundle-kit with receiver and charger on dx.com. The receiver was an S4 one that I resolder to switch polarity of the pins.

It works, but the Jolla gets hot as hell. It doesn't feel healthy at all.

@dave999: 1, X and 2.
Ok, seriously, probably X.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

If they miss showing something new at MWC it almost certainly means they failed to meet their own deadlines. In fact I'd be very worried about their future if they didn't. As for when a new phone would actually be available, who knows.

A few years? Without a new phone next year, Jolla won't have a saleable product.

Exciting software can't come without reasonably capable hardware. Expecting miracles from low end hardware is irrational. Sailfish with a few apps open is anything but a fast or smooth experience on the existing hardware ... and it's only likely to get worse as the level of complexity and resource requirements increase (as per 1.1).

There's every reason to abandon the existing TOH shape, size and fit. It leads to a blocky, ungainly phone with extremely poor environmental sealing. Also it means another completely bespoke package for the phone, which their OEM has to work around. If they share basic physical platform with other phones, or slightly modified, costs are considerably lower and QC issues are unlikely to be as bad.

Besides ... are you seriously expecting Jolla to use exactly the same camera and lens? No? Well you'll need to cut a new hole in all your TOHs for a new camera on a new Jolla phone.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

no, but is sw development and hw pins are the same (but different position) making new product is super easy, r&d would be very low and prices would drop.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

I have a feeling we have already been at this before... still I just cannot let picking on your point...

I do not know how you manage to use your device to make it slow?
Mine is fast and smooth regardless how many applications I am running on there. (most of the time under 10 but how many do you usually need anyway?)
Or else we have totally different expectation on what a device should feel like?


I agree on the environmental shielding. However it would be much more difficult to have DIY's if the TOH concept was fitted as IP-something-protection; I believe probably impossible to manufacture with 3d printers.

About the form factor and look&feel of the device design; I find it beautiful and intrestingly different from other devices whish usually follow the soapbox-design-from-samsung likeness.


I have no idea what are you talking about here?


Camera could be better, yes of course, but the size/positioning of the camera module could well be same in future models.
(The said future models which will not be released in at least a year, maybe longer.)

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

That would certainly be a better situation, and one which ought to be perfectly possible if the TOH concept is retained. Retaining exact size or fit of current TOH would be a disaster for the new phone imo.

- Quite simply. By using it. Without the GPU idle and ZRAM modules from Warehouse, it's pretty piss poor. What are you comparing it to? The N900? Then I guess it's relatively fast and smooth. The level of freeze, frame drops, general stutter and lag really hasn't been a thing on mid-range and above Android devices (carrier bloatware notwithstanding), iphone or BB10 for a while ... though with the latter there was occasional stutter on earlier versions. The most bizarre thing I find about these people claiming that Sailfish on the Jolla is so fast and smooth, is that they usually also argue that more powerful hardware in the near future is unneeded and would barely offer any benefit. Do they even believe this themselves? Sailfish has 'proper' multitasking, so if you're going to make real use of that or be a power user, you're definitely going to benefit greatly from better hardware ... add Alien Dalvik in on top of this, and an almost bottom of the range Qualcomm SoC and 1GB of RAM is perhaps not all that you could ever want. I don't believe you for a second that your device is "always fast and smooth", unless you're one of the people that swear blind they can see no difference between 30hz and 120hz and never notice frame drops (which are constant on sailfish).

- There is a very big middle ground between IP certification and the environmental sealing that the existing TOH offers. It should be improved on a new device.

- Aesthetically and ergonomically the existing Jolla is a mess. It's a clunky brick with huge bezels and an inexplicably gigantic bottom bezel when the device has no hard or softkeys. Beautiful ... not sure you'll find too many takers outside these forums for that assessment.

- I think it's fairly obvious what I'm talking about with regard to production and design considerations that an unchanged TOH for the next phone would dictate.

- I think we can consider Jolla a dead duck if their new phone isn't on the market by this time next year. I'm pretty sure your confident assertation that it'll be at least a year or longer is not compatible with plans they may have.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

It requires that the outer dimensons of the phone stays same and that the camera, usb connector, etc stays at the same places

Screen can grow (or shrink) a little and better sealing is certainly possible.

But isn't this very off topic for this thread?

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

See my numerical calculations bechmarks of NumPy comparing 3 note/netbooks and 6 tablets & smartphones. Jolla smartphone is faster than Nexus 4 in 3 of 4 benchmarks (both using 1 CPU core and Sailfish OS) . In 2 of 4 benchmarks, Jolla smartphone is faster than a Asus 1005HA netbook.

Compare how little RAM Sailfish uses with Android, how little battery drain, etc. Sailfish has many advantages over other Mobile OS.

I also think that Jolla needs to release Jolla 2 smartphone in 2015 to attract new Sailfish users. But not everybody needs/wants to upgrade every year. For example, my Nokia N9 from 11/2011 still works very well, including its battery, multitasking, etc. I also expect to use my Jolla smartphone for some (2-4) years.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

My previous device was N9. Before that I had various Symbian devices.


I have heard that using Alien Dalvik on Jolla makes it slow. That's possible, usually anything Androidish is slow.
I however have not ever used it, so that's an irrelevant thing to me.


I have not measured any framerates with the device, how do you do that? Are you referring to some game framerates when running non-native games or something?


Yes, no argument there, it could be better :D


Opinions differ :D


I have no problem with the current TOH physical interface


There are lots of people who like to change their devices often, buying a new generation device every year.
I do not see a point there, as long as the existing device fulfills my expectations and is not broken yet. (I tend to break/wear down my devices in 3...4 years, after that I need to get a new one)

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

Just a sanity check... are we still on topic? Is it worth branching the concerns about Jolla's hardware quality/performance to another thread?