Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

So WebOS opensourcing did not help them? So LunaOS and LG's TVs using WebOS is fictional:
https://pivotce.com/2015/08/17/luneo...e-caffe-crema/
http://m.lg.com/uk/smarttv/webos (BTW there even tlremote client for WebOS based TV for sailfish by icoderus)

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

Is this thread still about Sailfish OS 2.0?

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

As I said in my previous reply to Copernicus, open sourcing as last desperate attempt to save a dying platform almost never works. This example is how another company took the code and adapted it to completely different product than WebOS was designed in the beginning. To counter one single example of not-entirely-failed open sourcing there are numerous other attempts that failed (ie. Symbian). Without companies to back up development, communities rarely can run development very far.

If WebOS was open source from the very beginning, the situation might be much better in that regard. Which is why I do hope Jolla open sources as much as they can, though I don't believe that anything they do improves relations with community anymore.

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

That the exact point that the talks about open and community and opensource is from before release of the phone, but they are not here. And sure there are always people that would be displeased. The question is there real reason for that or not ;)
Btw Symbian was killed not only because of that, but because it was too outdated at the moment(should they opensource earlier when they have devs)+ Elop.
Maybe the problem of Jolla is that they lose devs and do not gain new is because they still did not opensource, did you think of that?

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

Problem of Jolla is that they have to balance between ideology and reality, which is something communities don't have to take into account. Tablet is late 3rd time now and it's likely they have their hands full with that. So no resources for open sourcing, or we won't have Tablet even for Christmas. But who cares about products, we want the code!

It doesn't really matter if people are displeased for real reason or not. What matters is how it shapes the attitudes in community in general and IMO Jolla had an uphill battle on that front since from the beginning. If even good intentions are turned against them on first opportunity, I do not see how anything related to "having real reason" or "not having a real reason" makes any difference anymore. After all, humans are not that rational beings. It's like buying a car - choice is made by emotion and "rational" reasoning is invented afterwards... :P

Symbian was outdated, but still, open sourcing it didn't help a bit. It was primarily Nokia project, developed with Nokia funding for Nokia products and died instantly when Nokia ditched it. Anyway, I have hard time accepting your argument about Jolla losing devs because not everything is open at this very moment, as there are not many contributions even to those parts that are open and require attention. We hear constant crying about browser hoggin up memory, but yet, only couple devs contribute to it. Being that way, I'm not daydreaming about everything suddenly turning better just by open sourcing more. Like it or not, world is run by money and without it there won't be relevant development towards consumer grade products.

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

i prefer that,if they decide ( after balancing advantages and disadvantages,in order to not break economy of company and investiments) to open it, and i hope so ( only from a superficial and unexpert PoV), they will do it well and with time it needs..i didnt think about this arguments thanks Julma

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

today product is not something you buy one time and that's it. it's ecosystem (you pay for apps and you do not want to switch platforms to buy same apps again right?), it's about support, updates, communication. Even cars today get updates (Tesla and all new cars), so it's not one time thing. You do research and you do think forward(if you are not one throwing money for no reason).
And loyalty to company or support from community comes from several reasons: PR(promises and so on), communication, support and mostly important deeds. I see it as "respect", that you can gain temporary by small actions here and there, but we know person(company in our case) better with time. Deeds vs words, mutual respect and co-working only gains points. And one of the important things are patterns. You know person first by what they say, how they look and stereotypes, but after we learn their character(this is the pattern i'm talking about). And as I see it the problem here is not in delays and f#$%# ups, but how they handled. You can still say there are worse or we'll see, but if some things never change and they keep repeating itself it will turn the red light to me. Not saying it's permanent, but as the FIRST WAVE PRE-ORDERS of Jolla Phone i wanted to believe and support, and I gave them a lot of chances, i tried to explain and communicate with them. But i do respect myself and after things are not changing 3 years later and same problems are repeating themselves.....fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me :P
3 Years is a long time especially in mobile business and can you tell where exactly Jolla improved (not talking about UI and SW changes) but in matter of community relations and promises and communication? Few weeks earlier we had sh#t storm about silence from Jolla regarding delay and they provided some info(later than should be done but still) and only few weks later there is again silence. Like they do not learn anything, same as people who keep believing.

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

Still, the product is in the center of everything - no amount of pr, respect, good deeds, ecosystem or communication will help if product itself is not improving. Sailfish has been improving a lot. There are things that still need attention, but if you only concentrate on bits important to you and disregard everything else that has happened with the platform, you are not painting the whole picture - this is why I don't really recognize my own device from descriptions of some posters here. It's all negative, completely, utterly negative concentrating on everything that can be turned to negative without even a hint to anything even remotely positive. That's what makes this place quite tiresome at times and that's why I have lost most of my faith in communities.

As for comparison to cars, to be successful, the car needs to be good in what it's intended to do. If it's not, there will be no brand loyalty, no matter how much effort is put into communication. However, being a Saab owner I do recognize the pain of not being able to tinker with everything in car when manufacturer has deep sixed and it's designed in certain fashion. But ultimately, the product needs to perform, it's the baseline on top of which everything else is built.

During previous s***tstorm I asked, what is it you want them to communicate, if they have nothing concrete to announce? "There is problem with x and y, we need to fix them." Yeah right, everybody knows already that there are problems and that they need to be fixed. Ambiguous announcements don't do any good and arbitrary schedules neither as they will lead yet another disappointment when something unexpected prevents delivery on that schedule and at least part of community takes those estimates as God's promises to His people. So, it's mostly about expectations - you seem to be one of those expecting every single detail to be poured out for gossip and bemoaning. I expect delivery above everything else. So even if I'm definitely not happy with yet another delay (as I actually have a need for that Tablet), I don't want some communication just for the sake of it. I want communication only when there is something relevant to disclose. Chit chat is luxury for those who don't have anything more important to do. But that's only my take, your take is different.

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

No. Not open sourcing.

Dumping tons of dirt cheap TouchPad tablets on the market (fire-sale style) helped WebOS. People were hacking it like crazy even before releasing WebOS free. :-)

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

i agree with u with all,except for last periods. yeah i am positive with works made by jolla ,as i said i really like sf 2.0 apart for cover buttons wich are a step back imo. however i think we cant seriously claim that communications is well done. it has to be improved, and quickly. relative small developers team are doing great things at jolla. on the other hand communication is lacking, i dont know who are the culprits, but is a fact. isnt so irremediable like someone here have said. they have created good link with community but they are also doing big mistakes right now. i can understand delay, but i think that if someone has given money to you,cause believes u, u have to communicate as much as you can. so i would expect communication without people have to ask info about process, and saying whats good and also what is not going as well. i dont have backed tablet but if i had i would be disappointed not for waiting (even if i could be tired to wait) but for lacking of transparency. you have problem with display or with something else? i expect you to tell anything to me, as i suppose u do with inverstors, cause i have supported u on faithful.who dont want updates simply can read every tot period,as he likes,but in this case less is not more...but i think they can improve..maybe they just have made a step longer than leg and nlw they have lot of things to do...but if i stay here and use jolla phone is cause i trust them. otherwise i had better to take off boat

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

But the same can be said about you! There are posters who try to paint an objective picture but the moment they include anything that can be considered even a little bit negative, you immediately snatch that opportunity and focus only on that.

Exactly!

There. Fixed it for you. It is the lack of details that give rise to gossip and bemoaning, not their presence. Providing unambiguous details prevents gossip and bemoaning.

This post is a typical example. Completely lacking any detail and a textbook invitation to speculations and gossips and, eventually, bemoaning. It would have been better not to say anything at all but if you want to say something, say it properly. Provide the schedule or, if you do not have one, say you do not have one and why. Say exactly what obstacles are standing in the way. Not just, "we have some problems", but exactly what problems. It's just business 101. Managing expectations.

But this is waaaaay OT. Now back SFOS 2.0. I like it.
There. A positive comment. Feel free to ignore it and say that I am 100% negative.

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

Overtly negative and disproportionate is not same thing as objective. I do recognize that Sailfish is far from perfect and I do hope that next phone is already in the pipeline as I don't count this one to last for next two years. But to comment only on those negative things is not being objective, especially if the tone is more like pointing fingers instead of looking forward. Nothing is solved that way. Some things take time to implement, somethings have to be given lower priority, some things may be dropped altogether. It's normal in just about every single company or project with limited resources. Somehow it at times turns into "not even this is implemented yet so they just sit there doing nothing" as if that certain piece is THE defining factor of everything related to the OS.

We have already seen it before. Details only matter when there is resolution available, until that they always cause more gossip and bemoaning, especially if attitudes are already hyper-critical. That's why I prefer announcing things only when there is something relevant to announce. The Apple way seems to be better in this regard - they never give hints beforehand, only announcing things when they are ready. Jolla's model is different as it lets people to have a look how the product is baked. However, it's also somewhat dangerous approach as it places much faith in people to understand that it's not at all uncommon for things to go SNAFU until product is ready to deliver. You just don't hear it from companies like Apple or Samsung. However, I do blame them for setting over optimistic schedule for delivery like Nokia did before. I don't know if they do it to keep things moving forward or what, but it does harm their public image.

...and it's perfect example of what I mean. If something cannot be published at that moment, there is nothing else to disclose. So, in that case, which one you want: silence, or ambiguous statement that something is cooking?

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

We will just have to agree to disagree. You see it white. I see it grey. You shout, "you see it all black!"

Please try to undersatnd that not everyone who is not your friend is your enemy.
Quite the opposite, everyone who is not your enemy is your friend.

I said exactly where I stand. Saying nothing is a lesser evil than an ambiguous statement. There is nothing worse than an ambiguous statement.

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

Then I guess we agree at least on the part where silence is golden until there is something relevant to disclose.

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

I was monitoring webOS before and after the Touchpad firesale (I got one there), and I can say that the firesale did not help much.

An example is that the android-on-the-touchpad IRC channel was significantly more populated than the usual webOS channels.

Unsurprisingly, people who've paid $100 are less committed than people who paid +$300 :)

In any case, open source webOS has certainly worked to keep it alive. can run it on my Jolla of all places :), and in fact would probably be my first option of a truly free mobile OS.

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

ot: webos or luneos is actuslly as usable as sailfish?

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

When a company dies, the OS or UI doesn't have to die. Look at how LuneOS is progressing on re-building my beloved webOS (though I moved on to Jolla and now BB since Jolla launched their phone). I have a test version of LuneOS running on my HP Touchpad and they're doing a great job. Just like SOS, there are monthly updates. So no, an OS doesn't have to die when a company falls.

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

On the HP Touchpad and Nexus 4: yes, although making calls is still on the to-do list. But aside from that, it's perfectly useable as a basic OS (though there are also more advanced options).

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

Well! This has really gotten offtopic!
Any thoughts about Sailfish 2.0 anyone?

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

Thanks for this...

I think, many of TMO-members has abandoned Jolla/Sailfish because of delays and no info...

No, i have not any thoughts about S2.0 because i am waiting official upgrade... Just calm down everyone, please...

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

Indeed... my final thought about Sailfish 2.0 is that prior to this version I was still using N9 as my main phone. With Sailfish 2.0 I'm noticing I've moved all the tasks I can to Jolla because it has finally become overall nicer to use than my good old N9.

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

So back to Sailfish OS2.0 preview !

Generally, I like it !

Pros:

• feels more polished
• feels smoother (probably not faster, but feels more smooth)
• Event view is starting to look good, and being really useful. Waiting for the next part of SOS2 to have it fully working

Cons (more detailed than pros, but doesn't mean there are more):

• pulley menu are harder to see as there is not anymore the glowing border but one that is too small to see. Some people did not find the "clear notifications" pulley menu from the events view for example.
• Events view shouldn't be a part of the homescreen and applications available everywhere. As it is done for multitasking, we should be in the events more often than in the app launcher ? Yet they choose to be able to launch app from anywhere but not checking notifications without exiting the app, moving to another homescreen, then getting back to multitask view, and finding again the app in which we where...
• Having an option to put events view acces on the left swipe is not a solution : I use my phone single handed with any of my hands. When using it with right hand, this swipe is hard to do as too far on the other side of the screen, and when using with the left hand, it is switching applications that becomes difficult. I need an option to put it on the bottom, which can be "quite easily" accessed by both hands, and letting the side borders for switching apps. And they need to make it an overlay as it was and as is the app launcher. It is like for peaking : don't break the flow !
• OOM killer still killing some apps. It really surprises when it closes the music player :D. The browser seems the worse for this. I don't understand how opera mobile was able to open 7 or 8 tabs on my old N8 with 256MB of RAM (while playing music by radio, and using maps...), and there the browser struggles with 3.
• Cover staying in multitasking view when killed by OOM but not noticeable : really ? make a big red cross on it if you want to keep it there, so we can see it doesn't run, or simply remove the cover...
• cover actions replaced by buttons : I don't like it. buttons are too small to be triggered when you need, and in the way when you don't want them. This is already something heavily discussed on TJC. In the same time, they are not that useful anymore : settings have none, music player can be reached from lockscreen (with the back button that was not on the cover), refreshing tweeter feeds in tweetian have about no use (you cannot read them from the cover which is too small, so you need to enter the app anyway, it would be better in the event view)... And you only have access to the one of apps that are opens. Not sure if it is needed to keep them.
• first line of icon disappear, making it more difficult to make a call. If the pulley menu from the lockscreen was availlable from the homescreen, we could use it to replace this first line of icon, but that is not the case so far.

And I think that is all the things that annoy me with this first part of Sailfish OS2. I will wait for the next part to have the complete new UI, and from there I will see what I need to patch to remove those hurdles in my daily use.

Edit:
And obviously, Jolla PR should be in the cons list, but it is not related to this update.

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

If those get implemented by Chris before there's a workable buteo sync CalDAV implementation I'll be livid. :mad:

I find it a little hypocritical that commercial plugins are getting implemented before open standards when we had that furore over ExFAT.

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

after some days of use i can say i really prefer new ui, i am waiting for return of feeds and modification of cover button, for the rest,really nice and usable.

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

you find it better than n9 in summary?

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

Ahhh, but ExFAT is Microsoft. That name alone makes some people see red. Other commercial standards - not so much.

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

but is not good to Mark some brand and not others. for me are the same. they also want to achive their aims and who can blame them? its an usual company as many others, sure open source standard should have priority

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

ExFAT is not only Microsoft, but ExFat is also requiring royalty payments.
Dropbox OTOH does not require royalty payments.
Anyway, weren't the remainig CalDAV issues supposed to be fixed with 1.1.9?
If not, you should be more precise on what's broken.
Ah, isn't the CalDAV implementation open-source, btw? Volunteers?

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

ok i admit my fault didnt know it...thanks

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

That was exactly aegis's point. Somehow there are volunteers for DropBox and OneDrive but not for open-source CalDAV. After all the noise we've heard in this thread alone about the goodness of open source.

Regarding issues, I have no idea. I don't use any of them. Local storage is the king in my household.

Oh, and thanks for the royalty reminder. I've nearly forgotten about that.

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

Yet you have no idea why there is no interest in fixing it? ;)

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

No, that was Jolla work. Not some volunteer from the community.

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

As does Exchange support if I'm not mistaken. I'm welcome to be corrected here but didn't Google drop ActiveSync support because they had to pay Microsoft to use it?

That's not to say they shouldn't pay for or implement proprietary tech but the "It's proprietary" excuse used by many rings hollow. As I understand it, it wasn't Jolla using that excuse at all but that's what the idiots on TJC were using as a totem to hang their argument on.

I would guess the same idiots are ok with DropBox, Facebook, Whatsapp and any number of centralised proprietary systems...as long as they're getting them for "free".

And if you're offended by being called an idiot in the broad sense I'm using, you're being an idiot. :D

And that's how you get sucked in to proprietary solutions that may not have your security or privacy at heart, change their T&Cs at a whim or whip the service away with API changes, partner agreements or being sold to a bigger proprietary solution.

I appreciate these proprietary solutions may be commercially a good idea for Jolla to implement so that it's one less pain point for people who aren't as "sensitive" to the issues and just want to send files to each other but at one point Jolla were "Unlike" and I'm not sure what that means if the services the phone supports aren't.

When it's released I'll have a look properly but I'd be surprised. Each release they say they've fixed something in CalDAV yet my simple test of adding an entry on my Mac, which syncs to CalDAV fine never makes it to my Jolla, makes it but is 1 hour out, disappears on the next sync or vanishes when you edit it on the Jolla. It's got better - at one point you couldn't even get a list of calendars.

I watch the github buteo_sync pages hoping that one day there's a bug fixed for "Apple's CalDAV" or similar but there's never that much activity. It doesn't seem to be high priority even though it was IIRC top three on TJC before they declared it "implemented". I don't know which CalDAV implementation it supposedly works on but it's not OwnCloud, SabreDAV or iCloud.

I've looked at the code myself but a) it seems to be spread over many projects and b) I'm not a C++ coder and really don't have the time.

Also, I'm not sure it's entirely the back end that is the issue as setting up the account in Sailfish's accounts UI is a frustrating affair whereby if you get something wrong you have to delete the account and start again. Syncing itself seems to be opaque with no indication in the GUI it's doing it either manually, automatically or at a timed interval. Of course, nobody can touch that bit as that's closed.

However, if anyone does want to have a look at buteo I will set up free hosting of a CalDAV server for them to test. Since v11.50 of cPanel (I run a cPanel based web hosting company), they've included built in CalDAV and CardDAV support which is based on a SabreDAV backend. It even supports auto discovery of CalDAV & CardDAV so setting it up for Jolla users, if implemented, should be as simple as just entering in the main URL of the server, not ports, principals or paths.

Anyway - back to discussing Sailfish 2.0 form rather than function....

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

Actually, no. The point I was making was that Chris Adams, who I'm unfairly singling out here and mean absolutely no malice, is a Jolla employee/contractor whose key area is the Buteo Sync framework that is the back end for CalDAV/CardDAV.

Expanding it to add DropBox and OneDrive is fine by me but FFS fix the existing protocols first.

Also, I would imagine that if Jolla had opened up the accounts API and UI by now somebody else would have written a DropBox, OneDrive, WhatsApp, SIP, EverNote, InstaGram, Flickr, Spotify or whatever plugin already. Why isn't this available in Sailfish 2.0?

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

Funny, because CalDav works well on my phone. Have you a link to the TJC bug report ?

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

Notice @aegis didn't mention CalDAV but "Apple CalDAV" :D

Chris does a pretty good job imho. Ok, it takes too long to see progresses, but they come. For instance, he told me the bug with Google Calendar when getting on/off line, will be released in the 1.2.1. That's too long, for sure, but Chris works, and let you know on TJC, that's great.

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

Which server implementation?

TJC is not a bug reporting tool but I raised it January 7th 2014 - https://together.jolla.com/question/...ts-explicitly/

but just search for CalDAV and you'll get another 204 'bug reports'.

I pulled out "Apple CalDAV" because it's how the Mac's Calendar, Reminders and tasks are implemented. And for Contacts, Apple uses CardDAV. I mean, why wouldn't they - they co-wrote the IETF spec and MacOSX Server ships with their open source Darwin Calendar server.

Oh, and it worked perfectly on the N9.

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

Absolutely. I wasn't calling out Chris here on his work. He commits to a huge number of projects so he's obviously very busy and perhaps spread too thinly. I was expressing concern that he's giving himself MORE work perhaps.

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

is there option to write own account plugin for Jolla and try it or the way to patch and fix CalDav and try on Jolla?
Because there is huge difference between apply fix for mer bug that will end up "someday soon" on Jolla, with no option to test and you'll need to set whole mer enviroment to do it so you can test it. And developing might not be the most straight forward and not exactly noobie friendly(some people can code, but they might be not good at devops btw)

Re: First thoughts about the (pre) Sailfish OS 2.0
 

Yes, usually you can checkout the code from the repository, build on Sailfish SDK and install the resulting packages on your device.