Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Do we really need Alien Dalvik?

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

I would be really surprised if Jolla/Myriad could provide NFC support for payments within android apps while they cannot provide file exchange over bluetooth within alien dalvik.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

I don't think I NEED it. But i would prefer to have it. It just gives you some flexibility. Usually I don't use it anymore because for me all really necessary applications are available on sailfish nowadays. Anyway I use some open source android apps from time to time.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Why not go for sfdroid, the libre solution?

Btw. I've never used NFC in my life. I don't consider the whole Android Pay things a great solution, anyway.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

It shouldn't be too bad actually, NFC works quite differently to bluetooth after all.

BT is difficult because of what controls the device, SailfishOS uses Bluez4/5 and Android uses Bluedroid and you would need to write some kind of middleware to translate. BT is also quite complicated compared to NFC which is mostly fairly simple.

The main trick with NFC would be around message routing, how you do know which app has the NFC focus at any given time between Dalvik and Sailfish OS.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Doesn't it only work on Nexus 5? Don't get me wrong, I'd much rather use sfdroid than alien dalvik, but if one is available and the other would require 6months+ of community hacking to get it partly working then there's a big difference to people who need Android apps for whatever reason.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Nexus 5, Nexus 4, Oneplus One, some versions of the Moto G.


Also we've moved on from sfdroid and are trying to get Anbox working on Sailfish, once we get over the kernel patch situation (issue being we can't get it to boot with a 3.4 kernel, ie. on my Nexus 5), then I can go to town on the anbox image and get sensors and stuff working.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

I stand corrected, didn't realise it was working on so many devices.

Wicked. Definitely interested in following the development efforts, is there a thread for that & general discussion?

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

I didn't needed it in the past, so I don't know, how well it works. If it works nicely, I have no problem using sfdroid.

NFC is is the same for me. Don't really need it.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

If with "we" you mean you and I, then yes.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

http://lirc.org/ would be a good start. It already handles about any remote control types. For file exchanges and other unusual things, then a dedicated third party app would be acceptable, and in no way should delay the release.

There maybe are things to leverage from the N900 which had such an IR port it seems (I don't own one), like this : http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=37655
but looking at this thread it looks like even the N900 doesn't have irDA, so no file exchange possible : http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=44217

Chen, not that it matters to me, but are you preparing IR for use as a remote, or with irDA to allow higher level protocols like file transfers (which I never seen on any electronic device I own...) ? And would it be bi-directional (to allow recording ?) ?

Also, and maybe more importantly, what resources do you have for software development ? I understand that Sailfish would be sub-contracted to Jolla, but if you are to release also a basic AOSP version, by who would it be done ?

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Are you guys seriously asking for file transfer via IR? At this rate, how many other people do you think that you will ever see with this device in real life?

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

It would be nice to transfer between this and N900...although the latter only has trasmission, not reception. Back to the drawing board...

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Uh, you could also use bluetooth or wifi, which are both faster...by a lot..

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

not yet, no. I'll start one when it gets to that point.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Please don't mistake people asking Chen what is plans are, with expecting him to change his plans...

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

It's called "thinking outside of the box". :D

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

But what if, uhh...someone is jamming the wifi! Or we're in an environment where radios are required to be turned off. Maybe? I'm sure there must be some conceivable reason for it.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

I'm not disregarding your comment; however this is a well traveled and previously failed "box". IR support was great before Bluetooth and NFC. I mean, hell... let's put tubes inside of it while we're at it. Those were great!

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

No. Not really.
Therw was some gigabit IR tech talk a few years back but I'm not sure that it got somewhere. But good ol' IR is useless for data transfer for the last 15 or so years.
Unless you like to torture yourself and still use 33.6k dial up modem.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

I know you're joking but,..

Jamming wifi, with kali, and its Penetration testing tools, or jamming wifi with an, illegal, dedicated jamming device that kills every wireless connection within its radius?
Well, you wont be affected by Kali if a wifi-direct/bluetooth connection is used, because the chance that someone is sitting with their Kali-loaded-laptop/portable device, in your range, in your area, just waiting for you to start the communication, to start cracking a file transfer that will probably last a few seconds/minutes, at best, is a pretty unrealistic scenario.
And if someone around you is using a dedicated jamming device, to block every kind of wireless communication, you definetly have bigger things to worry about.

Of course, you might do an oldschool file transfer with an encrypted USB-Stick, in one of these

https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/hand...d-31413950.jpg

if you dont want to take any chances.


Chen might add it for retro-reasons, though.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

If IR bothers we can remove it. Thought it would be handy using the phone as universal controller using IR. ;)

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Quick question. Is there an IR app on Jolla that's native?

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

It doesn't bother me ;) , also will the phone have NFC?, I could have sworn I saw the spec list mention it but now the earliest reference I can see from the thread is from myself.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Yes NFC will be included. There will be an Android version in parallel (I really need to reach out to more buyers otherwise we are screwed...) So for Android it's important to have NFC for Android Pay etc.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Well that remembers me on Indiana Jones:
"You have chosen wisely"

Indeed that is a very wise decision. Our community is great, but i fear it isn't really big anymore, so unfortunately building up a parallel Version with Android, is probably the only way to sell enough units.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Thats not what i meant!

I was only talking about file transfers over iR.

I really liked using my n900 as a remote. :D

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

It was already discussed at the beginning of this thread when the question of the OS(es) was still open, but again I think it's a very sound decision. Your recent comments about the number of secured tablet sales and the mimimum batch size required to run production only emphasize how important it is to reach a community beyond ours, even if Maemians/Meegonians are obviously and objectively far superior to mere androids (!).

Even if the device is 99% an Android device and everyone on Earth considers it an "Android revolution" despite its roots here, there'll be no happier community than ours with 1% of units running Sailfish or another alternative. If you make it possible by opening the bootloader and actively supporting an official Sailfish port or community ports (hopefully with Sfdroid or Anbox, since Android compatiblity layer is really important in 2017, as sad as it can be), that's already a huge progress. A huge progress none of us really thought would be ever possible.

Hope Android sales and preorders will be good after proven success of the Moto Mod and Youyota tablet, as a mean to make our little dream come true.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Thank you!

The biggest differentiation of this device is keyboard, and the OS must have a proper use of that. I can ensure that it wouldn't be N950's case - the device has a keyboard but the OS barely uses it.

Please rest assured the keyboard will integrate with the OS. It's called pocket PC ;)

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Well, given how well keyboards (both direct hardware like TOHKBD and wirless Bluetooth) work on Jolla1 even today (it works. Everywhere where there is an edit field, the keyboard can be used, and the touch screen one minimizes) this gives very high chance for the phone.

Same can be said for Android: several official devices had keyboards (starting from the first ever HTC Dream / G1) and there hasnalways been support for keyboard and mouse into it (try plugging a powered hub into some tablet's USB-OTG and USB keyboard / mouse and see what happens). Again all the text fields work as they should. And some apps even react in an intelligent way when you start typing (in WhatsApp, in the main view (where there is no input box) when you start typing, you automatically get a quicksearch box).

This last one brings us to the potential improvements on SFOS.

Don't get me wrong, Chen's device could already be shipped like this and be working.

But there's a lot of potential improvements. Currently SFOS is mainly a touch only system. When there is no input field in focus, a keyboard currently no further use.

Later updates on SFOS could also include intelligent things that the keyboard could do when no input field is in focus. E.g.:
- like the Android WhatsApp exemple above: when the display is a list, keypresses could help search around (this could help a lot with pull down menus on web pages. As their order is random, currently even SFOS "scrollbar with letter book marks" can't be used).

- like the "Just type" functionality on HP/Palm 's webOS. On the main app view with the app-cards, if you start typing you'll get automatic suggestion of anything: starting apps whose name matches your input, contacts, etc. Or even start specific actions: search the web with you input, start a note, etc. User-installed apps could provide their own pluggins for this feature (installed 3rd party map apps could provide a search actions)
Most of the interaction can be started by "Just" starting to type, and then clicking on one of the suggested quick-search results or quick actions.
(E.g.: just type "cam" and you'll get suggestions of starting the Camera app, quick search results of contacts called "Camille" or "Carol Meier", or search Wikipedia with keyword "cam")

- Palm's older PalmOS had base apps react on keypresses if you started Graffitying with the stylus or typing on external keyboard : the note taking app would automatically open a new note for you to write, the calendar app would start a new entry, or if the typed caracter was a number, start setting the time of this new entry.


So there's a lot of room for improving things even better.
But base functionality is already there.

And in my humble opinion it would be best to ship the device fast to get it into as many hands possible - even if there mostly input-field onoy support.
And subsequently improve the support in updates (keyboard uses outside of input fields).

Tha would give the possibility of motivated 3rd parties to also improve the support (some genius might write a "Just type" like functionality)

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Regarding the second improvement in your list, I was using Quick Launcher with my tohkbd, it was a great combination and allowed doing part of what you describe (just part of it, i.e. launching applications). I was leaving it permanently open, and when I needed to open a new app, Alt+Tab, "em", Return, boom here's your e-mail app maximized.

It worked even for apps already open, but in that case Alt+Tab was just simpler. You can also set shortcuts to several applications on F1-12 if I remember correctly. Quick Launcher was one of them for me, so I didn't even have to Alt+Tab first, I could just use the shortcut for QL to bring it to front and start typing. I barely needed the other shortcuts.

To be honest I seldom use Quick Launcher without a keyboard, it's often just easier to use the home screen or launcher. With a keyboard, however, it already provides a very good keyboard experience with Sailfish. Feels like having a Super key and a Linux menu with a search field.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Is it update time already? :D

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

No sorry. Moto mods needs to be finalised this week.

To give you an idea a normal bar style smartphone only has two moulding pieces: front plate and back plate.

On this mod we have 5+1 pieces, 2 for connector surfaces, two for bottom, one for the keys. And more importantly, the sliding frame which has metals and hinges.

I need to close it asap to get livermorium some reputation. Won't be too long. And once they have finished Moto will have a launch activity for us. (I like those Moto guys)

And maybe have some rest...

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

I see. So just the reasons why the other manufacturers, like Samsung for example, arent interested in slider- aka more-complex phones. ;)

Thanks for the mini-update!

And I hope you'll get your well-deserved rest then!

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Exactly. It adds more complexity on hardware. At least 4 additional mouldings in this qwerty phone compare with normal phone (Screen enclosures, keyboard top, keypad, and bottom, plus sliding frame) And need to wire another PCB for the keyboard. Plus need to solve how the front mic, camera and screen connect to bottom securely. And to make the the keys feel comfortable.

But rest assured we can solve all these parts. Our team have a strong background and I like tackling challenges. ;)

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

They also break more easily (See the "Oreo" problem on first Palm Prē) which is costly nightmare in logistics (returns, warranties, etc.)

And beside us geeks (who need to type code, shell, or use complex technical vocabularies, or multiple language that defy usual input tools) most of the other "normal" users can do with simplified input tools (autocorrect or swype) with the occasional small bluetooth keyboard.
So there no real point for a big company to invest the costly extra resources in producing slider keyboards, it won't attract that many additional users. Better invest in cameras, *that* one attract more users.

Also, slider keyboard add a little bit thickness, and given the current trends, having a smartphone thin enough to slice cheese with it is a fundamental need for everyone...

Thus, big thanks to chen to thinking about catering to the few with different needs like us.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

That hits the point, apart from all the above point it also makes harder on warranty managements.

But the keyboard means a lot to me, it make a phone phone. And I believe this will make a difference to a lot people like our community.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Have seen the new Nokia flagship device announced today, I think ours is more Nokia than this "Nokia"

And I *will* make it into real.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

(Note: Heat-pipe cooled ?! WTF, Nokia ?!)

(Note: Carl Zeiss lens on the camera s - Niiice!)

Well given that the *phone-making* part of Nokia is what Microsoft brought (and subsequently rebranded), and this phone is made by *the remaining* part of Nokia (once enough time has passed for them to regain the right on Nokia branded phone),
and given that Jolla (and SFOS) is what was left of the former Nokia R&D branch working on maemo/meego phones and tablets,
Yes, your phone is *litteraly* more "Nokia" than this Nokia.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

That's nothing new, most phones ('flagships' at least) these days have that.