Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

Very logical!

let me pitch some stuff:
so the story begins...Phones will kill all the compacts-->The death of the DSLR-->AI will transform photography-->VR will kick in and then cams will be attached to body or Eyes...

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

OK well I'll smack right up your challenge and disagree with you promptly.
A human eye is not really a camera worth a pennydrop. That's optically speaking it is really the worst piece of equipment one might ever come into contact with. Any cheapo webcam made this century trumps tha poor eyeball with lenscap on...

Consider the eye; it's a squishy piece of somewhat milky fluid that has poor pieces that try to make up for focusing and intensity control, and the sensor element is random splash of cells that sense some small part of the spectrum really badly and are even pointing the wrong direction...
Do you have any idea what the actual image on the back wall of the eyeball looks like?? it is not in focus, distorted and bent out of any shape, missing blotches of pieces, refresh rate of few hetrz.... not worth crap really!!

The only thing where human vision excels is the image processing thrown to play to get anything at all usable out of the "picture"
In reality everything you think you see happens inside your brain and nowhere near your eyes. That's the reason for people sometimes noticing or not noticing stuff that should be in "plain sight" btw.

If you don't believe me there's a really simple experiment you can do;
1. look forward and move your eyes from side to side, don't move your neck.
2. look forward and move your head from side to side, keep your eyes moving with your head
3. think for a moment about the way you see, and how the actual image at the back of your eyeballs behaves. (hint; the physical image behaves the same way in both cases...)


Nope, it does not work that way.

As I explained above, the vision which is combination of eyeball and brain is what creates your sense of seeing. This is how one experiences reality in direct fashion. When one looks at a photograph it is a different thing, one is experiencing a renderition of reality painted by light through another optical system.


Only if you hook your brain directly to the input device and allow the same processing to run as is being done by using the physical eye... with same adaptation and feedback looping. Possibly will be done one of these days but I doubt not in the few next years.


I'm not going to be drawn into that discussion, nope.

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

So are you implying that a RAW photograph taken in good lighting conditions on the N900 would be just as good as a RAW photo taken in the same conditions with a modern device?

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...and still trains are always late, even hours...

(sorry stupid finnish joke...)

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Maybe it was something wrong with my eyes.

Great joke. Don’t get it but it doesn’t matter.

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

@ ajalkane

well...cameras or phones or computers or Supercomputers or AI or even SI will have a long long long way to go...even with herculean jumps in advancement of tech to mimic what a human eye does...and the information and data it transmits to the brain..
knowingly or unknowingly..
let alone in as compact a size as the human eye itself..

One of the interesting things about an education in fine arts and music that may surprise folks is that there is a great amount of study of not just proportion, distance, dimension, colour and music and physics and other natural laws in art...it is a given to understand ..as well as skeletal, tendon, muscle, organs and their functions and movements and limits, of not just human, but animal as well. So as to be able to render a subject in a scene that is not bending beyond its natural structural capabilities in said scene so as to look "natural" in all aspects...thus fooling the eye.
Some of the more interesting disciplines are to be able to understand dimension for application.
a basic one is to say...is to look at an apple and study it...every square inch. how the light source reflects off it how the environment interacts with it.
When one becomes proficient at this one can see in the mind ...the apple...and all around it. even see behind the apple and inside the apple...and the environment one wishes to construct for the apple to inhabit.
If anyone does this and studies the apple one notices as well the apple is not separate from the environment but welded to it.
There will be areas where the "edge" of the apple disappears into shadows as equally as smears into an area where light seems to invade the "edge" of the apple that is seen.
This type of work is to aid artisans consciously to see and be aware of the dimensional world about us all, that most subconsciously or instinctively only deal with.

The eye is a very very very exceptional tool.
Unlikely to be replicated any time soon.

For example the data that the brain receives from viewing colour alone ...is staggering.
And the incredible function of what the eye manages in collecting that data ...even more staggering.

Just for one example.
(and I know myself I still decades later cannot help but look in absolute wonder and awe ...every now and then ...when I see the colour in question...even still..and I know many will be equally haunted by this once they read it.)

Find anything that has this colour in it.
https://colourlex.com/wp-content/upl..._225-2-opt.jpg

whether man made or natural.

Now that I have exposed you to this colour.
This is what happens to your eyes.
The moment you looked at it.
The physical characteristics of it are that the nature of the colour yellow vibrates at a molecular level to be able to be visible for us.
For the human eye to discern the colour you just saw,
the molecules in the human eye must set up a corresponding speed to the same rhythm of the colour yellow.

That speed of the molecules in the human eye recognizing that colour yellow are vibrating so many times a second.

A glance at the colour yellow ...
for the eye ..
the number of vibrations the molecules do and the data transmit thereby are the equivalent to the number of all the waves that have washed up on every shore of Earth since the dawn of our planet.
In that one moment.

I doubt that our tech will be able to achieve the insane and mad grace and sophistication of the human eye , the amount of data that is understood, converted, transmitted and received and understood consciously or unconsciously by the human mind.

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

Phone cameras might have a chance to catch up if real cameras stopped evolving. But they won't so they will always be a few steps ahead.

And ajakane, have you seen a human eye? It's enormous. You would have a hard time fitting it in a full-size SLR, let alone a thin mobile phone. And it's still ractually rather rubbish. The only reason it appears semi-decent is the huge computing power thrown at image post-processing. The good pictures you think your eyes capture are just an illusion.

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On the contrary. Both are expected to evolve. That is mandatory to get cool tech. The big fat cam makers will realize that the have to evolve and will get involve in smartphone development and new gadgets will evolve. the tech and the photographer will fundamentally change with, AI, VR, lasers.

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From what I've read, the newer (past couple of years) Pixels take better pics tham most high end phones because of software it uses to process photos. I believe it takes multiple shots when you snap a picture and processes them make a superior final pic. It uses HDR+ tech. So hopefully the Google pixel camera apk works on the phone and you'll have pretty good pics even if the camera hardware is not the best.

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Sounds like pseudo-science. At least, the part about shore of Earth.

Agree. This post-processing involves accounting for the near-sightedness of the eye, or any other problems with "hardware". Also, when looking somewhere, eyes don't stand in one place - they dart around, processing the scene, and maybe even focusing at different points. I don't expect that modern cameras can change focus that quickly - and even if they can, they still lack ability to rotate around.

Actually, human eyes are about the only reason I think dual-camera setup to make sense - for stereo vision and such. Anything having more than three cameras is overkill - and even then, it can be argued that the "third eye" in fish, lizards, tuatara and such is merely a light sensor - and by the way, living "cameras" do not have flash-light (which is so common in modern cameras).

Actually, optical zoom is not included in human eyes either. But I still admire phones which include camera with optical zoom. Be it Nokia N93 or Samsung G810. Even though moving parts are fragile by definition... I still admire sliders, with sand getting stuck inside and everything.

Thank you. Best wishes.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Per aspera ad astra...

[Edit]Supports the point about image post-processing being as important as, or even more important than, camera hardware. By the way, it would probably be nice to off-load image processing to a dedicated chip, similar to GPU, instead of having the software run on standard CPU.
[/Edit]

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

In living "cameras" discussed above the post-processing is performed in the main "CPU".
Although there is a region of that CPU dedicated to it, albeit vaguely defined, so you might argue that is "kind of" like a separate unit ;)

Exactly my point. Neither will stop evolving. And given the head start of one and intrinsic technical difficulties with the other, the chance of catching up is absolutely zero.

Or think of it this way. A dedicated device optimized to do one task well can never be overtaken by a universal device that has to make compromises to do multiple tasks well enough.

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I agree on YHWH being powerful and almighty, though I would very much also call him genius. It can only take both to create ALL there is (a powerful and genius being - God) :-D

Though this very OT and then again maybe not ;-)

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pseudo science eh?
Casual dismissal without inquiry?

the laws of physics and the laws of visible light haven't altered any since socrates or before ...if memory serves...
the only thing that has altered is our refinement in understanding (except in some it appears who casually dismiss) of exact numbers.

All visible colour is calculated thus .
the order is in the 10 to the 14th power Hz oscillations per second for "seen" colour.
That means...
Ergo ..
the electrons in the human eye must resonate at a harmonic frequency with which to perceive the colour ....that the colour vibrates at.
Ergo ...
Your eye cannot perceive what it cannot "allow" for.
Ergo psuedo science my *****.

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

That rectangle is not yellow :D

Sorry, endso, but Wiki is right. It does sound like pseudoscience.

[tl;dr]
Molecules do not "vibrate" to perceive light. Light is a wave, that much is true. But we do not perceive each individual crest and trough of that wave (the same is the case with sound, BTW, and the frequencies involved there are a trillion times lower). Our light perception is based on the fact that light is a particle (called "photon") as well as a wave, and that the particle hitting an electron delivers a small jolt (called "quantum") of energy to that electron which, in certain materials, can be harvested as an electric impulse. Light sensors in digital cameras are based on exactly the same principle, only using different materials.

Even the electrons do not "vibrate" in rhythm with the frequency of the incoming light. They merely receive a quantum of energy proportional to the frequency. You might say that they "vibrate" in rhythm with the number of incoming photons: the more photons per second the more electric impulses are generated, which we perceive as the light intensity. But even then we do not perceive each individual impulse but their average gathered from a huge number of electrons involved.

Which brings us neatly back to the phone cameras and the megapixel war. More pixels per square mm means smaller pixels. Smaller pixels means fewer electrons to receive the photons. Fewer electrons means less chance of a rare photon hitting one (= lower sensitivity to low light) as well as less chance of any free electrons left if the photons come in a large torrent (= limit on the maximum light intensity resulting in overexposed or "burnt out" areas).

To preempt Dave's next question, no, there is no way around it. These are physical limits that no science fiction can overcome. Ever. You can have either more megapixels or more dynamic range (the range between the darkest and lightest area of the image). Choose one.

Come to think of it, I just talked myself into supporting multiple light sensors, one for each portion of the dynamic range. In the basic configuration you could have two: a primary with a lot of small pixels for the middle of the dynamic range and a secondary with fewer, larger, more sensitive pixels for the extremes. The post-processing could find any dark or over-exposed pixels in the primary and replace them with pixels from the secondary. I assume this is what manufacturers refer to as "the other sensor is for low light images" - a rare exception when marketing is actually (almost) right. It is a trick since the extremes have a lower resolution but most people won't notice anyway.
[/tl;dr]

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

Sight is great and unrivaled at what it does. But it does not make pictures, nor does it efficiently collect data. There is no such thing as a biological equivalent of a camera, nor is there much relevance into wondering how well the eye without the brain would perform at catching visual data.

What we see is the result of complex processes and cognitive biases that trick us into believing we see sharpness everywhere, or something that is not there, or something that has not happened yet, or something that lasts a different duration than what we perceive, and the brain even fabricates data where it seems it would be relevant. The result is brilliant and admittedly astonishing, we feel that we can see pictures, motion, even perspectives at the best possible standard, we can focus and move the field amazingly fast, all from something that is full of flaws and costly trade-offs, and probably mushier than a glass of water. Fortunately the brain adds in its own flaws to compensate for them and make us believe they either don't exist, or are perks. However, it is mostly a fabricated illusion that happens to be perfectly decent and look legit based on what the eyes could collect and how persuasive the brain can be. Whatever objective signal is collected at the beginning is far more heavily processed when we actually "see" it than a raw image translated into a lossy format.

The result is great, but I don't believe it would be right to consider the eye alone an objective sensor to collect visual information, let alone a standard. And putting a CPU next to a digital sensor won't help forging extra data and convincing the user that the data is real when it is not. By contrast, the magic thing with the brain is what it does is never debated by the owner of the said brain; that's a big difference.

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

Well if both of you wish to ride on conjecture
without an ounce of actual physical science involved.
then here is mine,

you both have a skewed understanding of the physics of colour and how the human eye interacts with them.
Your assessment is flaky as hell and doesn't come close in the slightest with the actual science concerning the visible light spectrum , nor the human body and how it works and its interaction with that spectrum.
Go back to primary school.

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Are you including me in "both"? I was replying to other posts.

And I don't work on neurosciences or sight and therefore I won't want to push further than what I understand or know, but I am a biologist working on evolution and I have some basic knowledge on how the thing works.

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gads no K.
it was in ref. to pichlo
and wiki statements ...my statement was ...

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This Vsauce video demonstrates it beautifully.

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I don't even know whats going on ITT anymore.

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Useful discussion regarding the F(x) Phone project – just like the title says. To ensure everyone gets the latest info and updates when the topic shows up in the forum sidebar. :cool:

(No, it's just the usual TMO-OT-ADD: Oh, a topic. Oh, those words remind me of this other thing, let's post that! Oh, a tree! Interes… Look! Cameras!)

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

I totally understand that view point. However, saying you are fine with the camera on the N900 is very different than saying that there have not been any advancements in camera hardware except ability to capture low light and having better flashes.

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Derailed!
Chen and friends, for sure, will be happy that nobody is complaining about the "device" for now :D

Do not rescue the thread till next newsletter.

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My job is done here, and I wouldn't be surprised if Chen sends me a free device in appreciation of the derailing.

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Are You here on the left?:

https://www.karjalainen.fi/media/k2/...n_20171027.jpg

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That's actually me holding the balloon in the back, I had no idea this picture existed!

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And how do these exact number connect "the number of all the waves that have washed up on every shore of Earth since the dawn of our planet." to "the number of vibrations the molecules do and the data transmit in that one moment."? Neither of them can be calculated exactly. While our understanding and quantification of molecules' vibrations can be improved with time, I do not expect anybody to be able to calculate the number of all historical and pre-historical waves that have washed up on every shore of Earth since the dawn of our planet.

But it can be said that I was merely nitpicking your poetic comparison of two numbers which may {or may not?} be of the same order of magnitude.

Now, let's go into what happens when light hits retina of the eye. Photopsins (in cone cells responsible for colour vision) or rhodopsin (in rod cells responsible for night vision) are the photoreceptor proteins which, when exposed to light, undergo isomerization of part of molecule (called retinal cofactor) from 11-cis-retinal into all-trans-retinal configuration. Further details are shown in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_phototransduction , where I can find no mention of any molecule, atom or electron vibrating at a frequency determined by light frequency of photon hitting it?

Let's go from biochemistry to physics... Photons can be absorbed by nuclei, atoms or molecules, provoking transitions between their energy levels. A classic example is the molecular transition of retinal (C20H28O), which is responsible for vision.

In physics, absorption of electromagnetic radiation is the way in which the energy of a photon is taken up by matter, typically the electrons of an atom. Thus, the electromagnetic energy is transformed into internal energy of the absorber, for example thermal energy. See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photoisomerization

Absorption of a photon by an electron, if it does happen during photoisomerization, may be related to excitation of electron? Even in this case I do not see how any electron, atom or molecule would start vibrating at frequency of light wave absorbed.

I am rusty, sure... Haven't studied such abstract subjects in a long time... But you cannot argue that implied link - between number of waves washing up on shore of Earth, and number of vibrations of molecule in one moment - makes any sense. Coincidence, at most, and unproven one, at that?

Sorry for going on off-topic rant like that. I get distracted very easily.

Thank you. Best wishes.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Per aspera ad astra...

Re: Are you Ready? Fx HW Keyboard Phone
 

In my understanding the people partaking in this debate are talking a bit past each other :)

@endsormeans was absolutely correct in the part where he talked about artists perception of an object.
"Vision" has nothing to do with eyes and is fully a creative process that happens in the consciousness of the artist, it is a mental process and not optical. It is only coincidental that visual arts have anything to do with light except as a carrier of sensation; eyes are just the widest sensory bandwidth we have so often useful. :eek:

On the other hand I agree with @pichlo and @wikiwide that the bit about vibrations was not very accurate, but that was not the point of the posting, was it?

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No one was arguing that. Shame he went on a tangent and started trying to explain the physical perception. It sounded like using chakras to explain metabolism.

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Haha that cracked me up :p:D

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There's about 6 weeks left in this quarter
There's only a few major things left about this device that we don't know
I would anticipate maybe 2 or 3 more updates and then a release date at some point.
I think indie go go backers will get devices first, followed by the rest of us. Anyone have info on production capacity? Trying to get a rough idea of how long it will take to have the device. I would assume it's shipping from London

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It is really nice to see how people ... ach, was soll's :eek:

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Indiegogo? Did I miss something?

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Read about Moto Mod. But if this a REAL project as some people call it it should obviusly be enough devices for all of you.

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Moto Mod backers, some of them, did choose voucher to F(x)... I think that we all will get this Precious... Shortly... Just be patient...

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Not really a voucher. I think they do get a discount if they kept the deposit rather than ask for a refund. And of course first dibs

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Chakras ??
Really ??

Chakras .....my ***...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKZNEugVQlk

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Discount coupon = coupon (=voucher?) = money...

Because i don't speak english native i thought at first voucher is cheese ;)

Anyway... It is close...

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Can I have a slice of dat voucher please, it smells wonderful!
And a slice of dat chevron too, please.