Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

While i completely disagree on that to be useful for the generic user, I think it should be quite easy for you to set the idle timeout period, without the need to power on/off.

But i do keep mine always connected, so I have no clear recollection and I might be wrong.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

I don't know what you mean. The behavior referred to as softpoweroff in this thread has _never_ been planned to be delivered to the final user, since it was considered to be inferior and a lame workaround to real power management problems.

Seriously, we achieved suspend to ram as first step and it was kept as backup solution, just in case dynamic power management would prove to be too hard to reach. Which has never been the case.

So i don't understand where this expectation for a "fix" comes from.

Iirc an unofficial version was delivered, but what it does is basically cut the connections and disable wakeup sources other than the power button.

Which makes it a softpoweroff spoof.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Softpoweroff is not standby. It doesn't behave differently from Lock keys & screen (other than letting you activate it with a single keypress—I use a short-press on the power button—and allowing you to specific the offline mode behavior).

Yes, this is why there's no standby mode, because when things aren't eating CPU, the tablet is effectively using no power (you can go about 30 days from full to empty with an idle tablet, and about 10-14 in a more average case). Unfortunately this doesn't work out in all cases. Toss in WiFi and you're down to about 4 days, toss in broken WiFi and make it about 24 hours. Adding some process taking 1% CPU and you're down to about a day, combine that with a broken router and you don't get much battery life at all.

Thankfully, though, idling works just great for most users.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

It doesn't work on my tablet. All sorts of erratic behaviour tend to occur when I set shortkeypress to softpoweroff, so I just gave up and do the powerbutton-centerDpadbutton duet. It's not as if I really care anymore... :o

This is -- partly -- why softpoweroff was so useful. In its default behaviour it would cut all wireless connections as well as locking screen and keys and putting the tablet into "standby" (i.e.: allowing the OMAP to throttle back nicely).

Of course, since it "was never meant for endusers", Nokia really doesn't have to care about it, right. Right? I mean, who am I to think that this Nokia tablet ecosystem was supposed to be an open thingie? It's all a spoof really.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Consider this scenario: you browse the web, you go to a website with flash ads and leave the window open. You lock it, put it in your pocket, 4 hours later it is dead.

Or this, more likely scenario, you disable flash to improve performance, you go to iGoogle, which autorefreshes every few minutes. Lock it, put it in your pocket. 6 hours later it is dead.

Suspend to RAM might be a lame workaround, but at least it actually works.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Wouldn't it be good to send SIGSLEEP to userspace processes when the user locks the tablet?
That way badly written programs wouldn't be able to eat away battery while idle.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

I might want applications to run at full speed when I lock the screen to prevent accidental input.

It's a good idea to provide ways to manually influence the idle state/power consumption. Just don't automatically tie it to "lock".

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

I would recommend you to follow the discussion on the linux-pm mailing list about this subject.

Android folks are coming up with similar arguments but so far have had little success.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Nokia released the Alpha Maemo SDK today, so they must be coming out of hibernation :)

http://maemo.org/

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

[SIGSLEEP for userspace apps]
I certainly don't think this should be done in the kernel, but I've been repondering a daemon which would receive DBUS notifications (locked screen etc.) and, after a configurable timeout, start SIGSLEEPing processes with a .desktop file. A particular key in the .desktop could disable the feature (e.g. for IM clients). Things in the foreground could be slept after the ones in the background (which might start sleeping even whilst the device is unlocked).

However, I then start thinking about how annoying it already is to start loading a complex site, lock the screen, walk downstairs and the load has been effectively frozen by that operation, until I unlock the device.

Certainly, this thread has shown that the utopia of an always-on, long-battery life device is out of the reach of some users (based on the AP they connect to or software they install) and far too hard to debug when the device is dead in the morning. A more forceful sleep for user-space apps may be a pragmatic solution to the problems.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

all new devices come with a 20,000mah car battery?

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

1024x576. ****ing amazing if they can cram that into a < 5" screen.

Thats the same resolution as a 10" netbook.

Going back to OMAP3, is this thing going to be powerful enough to run something like KDE 4? I am assuming that the next IT is going to have at least 512mb ram, if not 1gb or even 2, so it seems like it will come down to the CPU. With such a high res LCD, using a full DE actually becomes practical, although the panel will need to be on autohide due to the wide aspect ratio.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Good, good.

Much depends on Qt. I run KDE4.2 with Qt4.5rc1 for few days and it was amazing fast *and* low on memory resources - with 3D effects turned off. With further tuning of Qt and KDE I think it is possible to run normal operations on "N900".

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Where's that figure come from?

Eh? Have I missed something?

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Yeah I was wondering the same thing...

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

speculation based on the SDK resolution.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Quim Gil says WVGA resolution. That's pretty much what we've got with the current tablets.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

but the SDK specifically talks about WVGA = 800x480

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

I've all the time one sentence in my head, that Quim said at Linuxtag '08 here in Berlin: "If you like Diablo, you will love Fremantle."

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Oops. So much for that...

HP refers to 1024x576 as "SD", whatever that means.

So with just 800px, are we going to keep the same browsing style or is there going to be an iphonesque zooming functionality?

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Of course it doesn't matter, since this turned out to be a misunderstanding of some sort, but I can't resist running numbers on these things...
800x480 in 4.1" is 228 PPI.
1024x576 in 4.99" is 235 PPI.
1024x576 at 228 PPI is 5.16".

To me, <5" wouldn't be all that amazing, if there were some good reason 4.99" was substantially better than 5.16; more likely I'd expect them to keep the same PPI, but who knows...

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Well I would definitely give up a speaker to get that display. Not gonna happen though...

I doubt they will increase the ppi any further anyway though. People complain about it as it is(I love it though...).

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

No soup for you.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

It's about competition indeed however NIT's competition is not merely limited to the MID space.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Yes, and the MID space is getting narrower. From the smartphones segment, we will have the Palm Pre and maybe the Android G2 (or whatever it will be called). And at the upper limit, we have the cheap linux netbooks which increasingly gaining mainstream acceptance.

In any event, since the SDK is released now, this "hibernation" discussion will end.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

I LOL'ed!!1!

Where else will we post random pictures of recently-announced-but-not-released products that might be competitors to the upcoming tablet?

Yeah, I guess we could start new threads with equally provocative titles, along the lines of, "LOOK OUT NOKIA! YOUR DOOMED NOW!"

;)

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Can you get a "comfortably" pocketable device in a 5.16 inch screen?

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

I'm glad somebody liked the joke. I debated whether to use the wink emoticon.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Smartphones and netbooks both existed when MID was first discussed, so I don't think it's narrowed at all. The distinction between phones and MIDs? A phone is a device made for holding up to your ear and talking into. Admittedly, this one is a little fuzzy, with stuff like the tacophone and the N810 ostensibly on opposite sides of it, but both in the "marginal useful, and not really made for it" category. But the Pre is smaller than the iPhone, and AFAIK the G2 will be no larger the G1; they're not stretching into the MID space at all. The only recent development that seems to push it at all is the N97, and that only in styling; it's no larger than a G1. (Sizeasy)

MIDs vs. netbooks is an almost unambiguous distinction. If it's a clamshell, it's a netbook. If it's a touchscreen slate (possibly with slider), it's a MID. IMHO, there's more room for confusion between smartphones (Navigators and the like) and netbooks than between MIDs and netbooks. The only potentially confusing options are convertible touchscreen clamshells, of which there are hardly any, and they all seem more netbook than MID. And again, most of the recent growth in netbooks is in the upward direction, with 10 and even 12" displays instead of the original 7-9" size, not encroaching on MIDs at all.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Netbooks aren't actually growing in size though. The original eee had a ginat LCD bezel, big enough to fit the LCD from the 901. The smaller LCDs were a cost saving measure, not about form factor. Now that they have grown in popularity, more and more 10" LCDs are coming out in order to provide more usable keyboards. The 12" dell mini for example is pretty much a flop. The future of netbooks is going to be in ultrawide LCDs to allow for big keyboards and HD movies.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

With respect to smartphones, I meant the Internet experience on smartphones is getting better such that some people see less of a reason to get a separate MID.

The netbook phenomenon is only a year old. I meant the 7-9" size segment which didn't exist more than a year ago. (And i think the HP Mi, Dell 9" Mini, Sony P are relatively recent).

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Bring back the hard case, b*tches!!!! *burp*

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

I don't see the point in an internet tablet that has WWAN but not cell phone capabilities. You already have all the hardware built in, why not take advantage of it? The WiFi-only IT makes sense, but with 3G now it will probably die out.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Because you can't just "take advantage of it". Adding voice introduces a lot of carrier and regulatory requirements that aren't present for a data-only package.

Besides, we don't actually know that at least one of them wont have voice.

Why would having 3G make it die out? This doesn't make any sense.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

I'm at a break point so I'll bite.

Maybe the upside to the present economic conditions is that some crazy carrier will offer a "Do-Any-Thing-You-Want-And-Try-To-Get-Away-With-It" plan. Sprint (before Nextel) accidentally did it before. Could happen again, and you'll certainly hear it here first (maybe second).

Isn't compressed voice something like 1/7 to 1/10 the size of a mono, 1 byte 8k sample rate? Let's say 20kbps full duplex. Am I close? If so, that seems to leave plenty of room for some obscured, robust subterfuge. And really, how much longer can they get away with there data/voice/sms ruse? Here, say it with me, "analog exists for less than an inch." Sh*t, we might actually be able to have this conversation with the current White House. Remember, there used to be an East Germany. See what I did there?

Is this thing on?

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Many netbooks now ship with 3g built in, but obviously none of them can be used as phones due to the form factor.

When you have something that is always on and is always in your pocket, and always has cellular reception, it seems pretty stupid to not allow it to have a phone as well.

IOW

Netbook- Wifi-only makes sense
Netbook- WIfi+3G make sense
IT- Wifi-only makes sense
IT- Wifi+3G+Phone makes sense
IT- WiFi+3G doesn't make sense.

Of course, within a few years VOIP will take over and voice will be useless, but until then I don't see much reason not to include it. Yes, the reasons that you listed are factors, but Nokia is a cell phone company and they can do regulation and certification in their sleep.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

The point here is: If a tablet is not a phone, you have to carry a phone with you. Your phone have the ability to route your Internet connection (3G, GPRS, ...) througth bluetooth. So why do you need 3G directly in your Tablet? My answer is: the tablet must be a phone without having any hardware to be it. That is: It should route calls through bluetooth as if it where a car handsfree bluetooth device. It should edit contacts through bluetooth as if it was syncing, it should actulalize the device calendar and todo the same way and it should have integrated photos visualization in Canola-Freemantle with a plugin the same way you can see them connecting with the File Manager

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Here you have it. It seems that Nokia takes the long term view of the tablet with the 5 generation plan and all. So why couldn't it be that they are foregoing conventional cellular voice because their intent is VoIP? And what is wrong with that?

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Nothing, but if the next gen devices have 3G hardware, there is little reason not to have Voice. If they want to make it VOIP-only then they should only stick with WiFi.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

There's big reasons. At least the same reason that the other 3G enabled MIDs, netbooks and UMPCs don't have cellular voice. Plus the additional reasons Nokia has related to VoIP.