Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

I'm not playing devil's advocate; I really would buy the DDP N900 if I could. And at that price, I would use it solely for development (because there's a limit to how often I want to be reflashing my actual day-to-day phone).

I look at it this way: if it costs E250, and has a 20% chance of costing me say E200 for an out-of-warranty repair, that's equivalent to an expected cost of E290 (=250+0.2*200). A bargain, despite the lack of warranty.

Put it another way: if anyone wants to sell me their N900 for E250 with one week's warranty, my PayPal account is ready and waiting.

Regards,
Roger

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

I think that all DDP order as 'critical' as this sounds better then 'ignore as long as possible' :D

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

First, the key word was "virtually." The only person talking about actual physical harm to anything or anyone was eiffel. :)

Second, no, I was referring to hanged, drawn and quartered. No drowning involved. And by drawn I was referring to #3, not #1:

Or did you already know this and you just wanted to see me use the word "hanged?" :)

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

It seems everything related to the N900 is currently a complete mess - online orders are being cancelled, valid discount codes are being cancelled which cannot be used again, not to mention this issue with the DDP.

Talk about alienating your public - discussions are taking place on other forums which are not casting Nokia or the N900 in a good light, to say the least.

I mean it with genuine sincerity when I say that I really feel for the Maemo guys - they're being abjectly let down by Nokia right now. :(

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

If you're talking about reflashing because of Nokia updates, it could be argued that your fears are unfounded. I'm not sure about Fremantle, but with one of the last Diablo updates, over-the-air fixes could even handle the kernel. A reboot was needed of course, but impressive none the less. Regardless, backup often and always keep a good Fiasco image nearby.

But if you're talking about reflashing because of your development. Just what kind of development are you planning on doing that would need a reflash? Inquiring minds want to know.

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

Depends on your meridian, I guess. Over here and at today's rates, the discount comes in at just barely under 600$ :-)

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

DDP was an impulse buy for me... I, like a lot of people were taken by surprise when it was announced that the next device would be smaller and a GSM phone!
The tablet's attraction to me was that I was able to tether it to whatever BT cell phone or provider I used. I also liked the option of leaving it home when taking my smaller phone somewhere was more appropriate. If GSM connectivity was what was gained, the Nokia Booklet 3g would suit my needs better...

...Then came this programs announcement and my eligibility.

As soon as it was made available I ordered. :eek:

Since then I have had time to examine this impulsive reaction of mine. :confused:

What I have come up with is that I view it as a reward of sorts. I have been a steadfast champion of the forum as a means to communicate Maemo's message (< upper case "M" :p ). I have used it to post my views and opinions, learned how to report and follow up on the bugs that affected me, and commented on the applications that I found useful.

Not all agreed with me, in fact many actually fervently disagreed with me at times however, my inclusion in the program meant to me at least, that some of my efforts had value...

I will get this device if only for that reason alone... subjective validation.

I value the gesture.
Thank you. :)

***
My new desire is to understand and implement a usable Web Run Time for the dang thing. I also hope that what I learn can be useful on the N8**'s, two of which I stare at daily and for the life of me, can not find any fault with. They are begging to be put into service around my home as information kiosks and media client/servers now that I will have something new to play with.

EDIT: Less than an hour after ^ those comments >> http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=34969

Imagine that! :)

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

Please send me a pm if you do, and I'll stop by to do just that.

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

I nominate this post for best-ever use of Smilies!

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

Sorry i forgot to mention that this email from ForumNokiaPro@nokia.com. They cc'd to the DDP program and vamsi is my name!

I hope the DDP team was atleast as responsive as the ForumNokiaPro.

The waiting continues!

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

I will try to get answers for you today, specially about the guarantee.

The DDP team has to go to the queue of N900 deliveries like anybody else. The sales delay affected them indirectly. I couldn't especulate on dates and neither can they.

This DDP has got some problems and surely next time we will approach it differently. But you also need to look it within its context:

- Most remarkable community developers active during the Fremantle timeline got a loaned device well before the sales start. This had been the complaint number 1 in previous programs.

- Many of the active community contributors got a loaneddevice in the Summit.

- We are still being generous loaning devices in Maemo developer events.

- More developers will get a loaned device as soon as I get them for distribution http://wiki.maemo.org/Fremantle_Developer_Device_Queue

- We are still including non-developers in this program, which is an exception in Nokia and maybe somewhere else.

There is time to make a balance and an exercise of lessons learned for the next program, but probably the thing could be as simple as

- Help community developers getting their hands dirty with the Harmattan pre-releases.

- Help promising community developers joining Maemo developer events.

- Help champion community contributors joining Maemo events.

- Organize a contest to give additional chances to those with some merits to contribute.

- Get interesting deals cutting down entry costs for anybody loving Maemo and having difficulties paying the full prie of a device.

- Maybe something like a maemo.org voucher for contributors with +nnn karma can be done.

And leave Forum Nokia for Forum Nokia users. It will be your choice to join their programs or not.

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

Thanks for your feelings, but what is happening is precisely the opposite. Due to the feedback and demand the N900 has got we decided to have a more polished release targeting a wider audience, even if at the cost of a later sales start. The rest is a consequence of this decision, including some of the problems you are reporting here.

There is another way to look at this for those explicitely saying that they were not interested in the N900: despite this fact you got an invitation for a device discount. I have never got such invitation from companies selling products I dislike and I wonder whether you have better experiences. Still, you got an invitation because no matter what you think about the N900, Maemo 5 and the Nokia teams we value your past contributions to this community.

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

So yes, confirmed. DDP devices don't have guarantee. The reason is that they are supposed to be used for development, and not as primary devices.

Also, they tell me they have got A LOT of extra requests from people not in the invitation list. So please think it twice before posting email addresses to public forums. Now you see why I didn't include them in my initial post.

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

qgil: can we also get some kind of timeline for DDP orders (when they will be shipped)?

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

That's a pretty poor reason. :mad:

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

Especially because this device program includes maemo.org contributers more than developers...

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

That's the one we have. If you are a developer unhappy about this argument feel free adding yourself at http://wiki.maemo.org/Fremantle_Developer_Device_Queue

If you are not a developer then I'm sorry but we have nothing better to offer this time.

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

It's true I have never had such an invitation from other companies although I have been involved in other companies developer/beta programs, but I have to be honest in saying that in all my dealings with other technology companies they have been more open, transparent and willing to communicate with community members/developers so in that respect I have had better experiences - the DDP process has been something of a nightmare from start to finish.

As for my comments about Nokia letting you down, I'm fairly sure UK buyers might disagree with you right now (see other threads).

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

Does it make sense for eligible people who are not going to take advantage of the DDP offer to somehow give it back so it can be redistributed to interested people on the queue? If the budget and devices have been allocated it seems a shame to let them go unused, at least if the logistics are not too complicated.

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

That reasoning still doesn't make sense. If I need it for development and it breaks, it is end of development. Not good.

Or maybe you meant - DDP is currently targeted to big companies with plenty of cash who will simply get another device or has more of them. This is a bug and changes are needed. If Nokia focuses on open source now it makes more sense to support independent developers.

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

How feasible would it be to terminate the N900 DDP and revert to a Nokia Store + Discount Code process for community discounted N900s, as per previous tablets?

I'd be happy to wait a while longer for this to be setup as long as it ensured a full warranty - I guess the only people who would be unhappy would be those who would not be able to obtain a US keyboard.

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

I am afraid I have to agree with fanoush on this one. Developer or no developer, if the thing breaks, it is still broken =(

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

As DDP device is for development will I get serial cable with it? I would like to do some kernel development for it and this is hard without such lowlevel access.

JTAG informations would be nice too but probably will never be made available.

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

Just reiterating the point just in case in was missed in my previous post. This quote worries me a bit
It is always great to find another way to help developers and I'm all for the listed stuff, but shouldn't really Nokia re-think some stuff behind DDP, Forum Nokia etc. (OVI store requirements mentioned elsewhere)? IMO times are changing. I wonder how many apps in iphone store are produced by commercial/for profit entities that can treat devices as disposable things and how many of them are done by hobbyists? What made sense with Symbian few years ago makes less sense today.

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

Exactly. While I personally believe "don't look a gift horse in the mouth" (specially since this is my first DDP and wouldn't want to mess up :P), most of the people on the program are going to use it as primary device, and that is a fact.
I don't know what the DDP guys had in mind, but most of us are no companies -- and, at least, if I had a "primary device" myself I wouldn't have got the DDP one in the first place. Why would a lone coder have two devices?

I have to wonder if no warranty is only the first limitation in a series of coming ones since "the device is not for use as primary device"....

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

Good points behind this jabbing. DDP would be better if it allowed stuff like this (even with NDA signed). Serial port is the easier part but stuff like JTAG info, cold flashing info etc would be useful.

And BTW, this is off topic but serial port pinout for previous devices are known. I recently got serial working with 770 and N800 (I have two such devices with broken display and both work over serial). It is only about geting ca-42 cable from ebay (mine was US $2.68 including shipping), cutting it and attaching/soldering to right points, no extra HW needed. Just beware that there are two variants of such ca-42 cables, one with more wires that needs extra 3V power (or 5V so they can be used both with 3v and 5v levels) and one with less of them that are powered from USB port and work without extra power and use 3V. If you need such cable, let me know. I have few of them (both good and 'bad' variant) and can point you to ebay seller with high probability of having that easier variant.

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

I know that serial pinouts are known. But it require hand soldering and combinations how to have serial attached and battery still in place when instead some kind of Nokia service tool can be used. And if DDP is meant for **development** then such tool should be made available as part of deal.

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

It's not really a discount then, so much as a gamble. I can't afford to gamble with this much money. Can you fix this Quim? I want to believe.

I guess I'll have to decide whether to re-order elsewhere, or get a 3rd party warranty. Will there be other items missing from the box? Video cables? Headphones?

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

The thought occurred to me that the people least able to afford a full-price N900 will be the most likely people to take a gamble on the DDP, and they will be the same people who can least afford to be left with a €250 paperweight. I really do fear that this forum in the near future will be full of negative vibes from people who took the gamble on DDP, and lost.

The DDP is undeniably a good deal, but only if you can afford to take the risk on throwing away €250, or able to write it off against tax. :)

The DDP is not a good deal for community members/open source developers who are giving their own precious time to support and evangelise the N900, typically their only N900.

Contrary to popular opinion I do want the N900, maemo.org, Maemo 5 and Nokia to succeed, but this isn't the way to go about it. Since a warranty on DDP devices is extremely unlikely I think the only solution is to now offer discount codes to DDP eligible members for use in Nokia Stores that will bring the price down to €250 or thereabouts.

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

As answered before, our invitation was made to the people that received it, nominally. It's up to them to decide what to do with it.

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

You can blame me for not having taken into consideration this aspect of the guarantee. Now it's too late for changing it. Next time we will do it better.

As explained before, you can't measure our support to independent developers from the perspective of this DDP alone. It is one action within many. We have got devices for developers pushing apps to Extras, for the Maemo Summit participants, for participants of training sessions. We have also devices for open source collaborators in upstream projects and there is still http://wiki.maemo.org/Fremantle_Developer_Device_Queue

If you are aware of other mobile platforms offering a better treatment to open source developers please share the URLs.

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

Sorry, it's too late for this. If you feel the N900 DDP is not for you then go to http://wiki.maemo.org/Fremantle_Developer_Device_Queue

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

And I wonder how many of these hobbyists got a device discount from Apple?

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

No it's not: you also said you were confident that this wouldn't become a discount black-market, so, unless there's an official way to return the discount so it's available for someone else, my discount will not be used under the counter, it will just be unused.

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

Quim - Thanks for the replies, even if they're not what we wanted to hear. Do you know (or can you find out) if the DDP will omit any other accessories included with the retail units?

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

I think I've read something like 'use it wisely'. One thing is selling it on ebay for profit and another thing is finding fellow developer who is serious about Maemo and is willing to take the risk.

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

You will get a "Not for sale" box with the same content as a sales box.

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

I have never felt so much involved in a platform as in Maemo.
I do, I REALLY DO, thank Nokia (and you) for the way you are thanking the people interested in this platform and in particular those that are actively helping pushing it.
I do.. I repeat, I really do thank.
It's been so far an awesome experience, I never said the opposite.

But yourself admitted it was a fault to let DDP handle the N900 discounted program (because of the Warranty issue) and I thank you for giving your name as the one to be blamed for this.

But you must also understand the frustration of who was eagerly awaiting to buy this device, when he found out there was no warranty even though he was going to pay 250 Euro. That's a lot of money for an open source developer, it is way more than 99 Euro we paid for the previous discounted devices and it is not that worth, anymore, spending that much money for a "primary" device that is ALSO a development device.

I complain for this, but I do not want to sound like I don't care or don't thank for everything Maemo has done to me so far in thanking me for what I have done for the platform.
I want to be clear on this and I think I can speak for many people here.

I do understand your points, giving free/discounted devices to developers and people heavily involved in Maemo, and I am sure you also understand our points.

Anyway, it's too late to go back.. let's just improve next the process for the next device.

Thank you.
Aniello

Re: N900 device program for maemo.org developers and contributors
 

I'm not sure a discount is needed when plenty can be accomplished on a $199 ($189 at Costco) iPod touch. And for $299 ($279 at Costco) you can get the 32GB, 256MB, Cortex A8 version. But of course, it costs $99 a year and a Mac to actually develop for it. But at least there's a 1 year hardware warranty.

So, how about a warranty, or maybe lower the price to $279 US. It's never too late to change.