Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

Tizen will be a android look a like, but still unknown how great and it might be asia only.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

maemo is open, what is closed are couple of apps and drivers
and in android case google reservs the "right" not to share android source code unles they feel like it...(proven with not releasing 3.x source for a very long time)

only thing open in android is the linux kernel(which has nothing to do with android so nothing in android is truly open)

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

Tizen will either:

1. Sink faster than a lead turd.

2. Be successful and as a result become progressively more locked-down.

There's no money in simply providing an open mobile OS and letting people do what they want with it. In any case, my money is on (1).

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

I would go for 1. The same that happened to Maemo/MeeGo. But before it goes all lead turd on us, we could see some cool devices coming, similar to the N800-900 line of products.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

You're right. Thanks! Although, I'm not sure that I'd prefer Windows OS over Android for any reason at all. Especially if, in the end, you get a forever half-baked operating system (speaking of half-truths and lies, let's not pretend Windows Phone is so very different an operating system from Windows Mobile, upon which it is based and has been failing to evolve past its failures for well over a decade) with limited capability and library.


Maemo is about as open in those regards. Have you forgotten that Maemo is closed-source enough that Mer couldn't succeed? What about the power management and connectivity daemons and other back-end operating system portions of Maemo that are fully closed, in addition to the drivers and applications you can't even uninstall without breaking the operating system (calendar, media player, etc)? At least, on Android, you can use the AOSP to build an operating system that at least WORKS without the closed-source portions.

Bringing this all back home to the topic, though: I don't see how Nokia can't take the blame for their own failures and it's incredibly shameful to see Elop and Nokia blaming anybody but themselves.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

Not necessarily. If one can devise a system that will work fully in the open but just be impractical for the competition to implement, it can stay fully in the open while not posing a risk to the original manufacturers' business. For example, if Skype was to move to fully open source, it would still generate revenue for the original Skype inventors because what use is the system when you don't have contracts with telco industries to hook it up to the existing fixed and cell phone lines - sure, one could use their protocol to create a better app and steal from them the user base, but they are not making any money or benefits (except for the brand recognition) from it anyway.

With an OS in question it gets a bit more complicated because OSes are not generally provided as services but rather standalone entities, however I'm sure there is a way to make it profitable enough to justify the efforts of developing it while keeping it open source. There always is a way.

Even if there isn't, if you don't think of yourself as a software but rather hardware provider, it's quite beneficial to you to go the open route and have the thousands upon thousands software developers work for you essentially for free. Why would you care if somebody else can use it if you think you can differentiate enough through the hardware alone?

And in the end, there are quite successful open-source projects that easily reach the complexity and the effort needed for a mobile OS, so how come those are still around and didn't get more closed along the way - projects like Eclipse, the Linux kernel, WebKit, Qt...

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

Such an OS do exist today. It is called Android. From what I gather lots of open source zealots don't like that, because Android is not Linux enough to be called an open source OS.

Strange, because it is open enough for Kindle/Nook to make tons of money based on it.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

(from Wikipedia)

do you need more like that ?!?
The Toad, maybe? :D :p ¦-)

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

tons of money usually does not come with FOSS...

Google makes its money with ads
Barnes & Nobles or Amazon obviously hope to make money from e-book sales...
they, as well as all the other ANDroid device providers (also) simply make money from the HW sales; the fact that the SW running on it is free makes it easier to price it attractively...

another reason m$ devices are less competitive...
between a N9 (16GB) & a Lumia 800, for a practically identical HW, the OS costs more, thus 23$ to 30$ less margin...
on a 450 bucks device...

and as HW is identical, as opposed to iPotatos where there is no direct HW competiton, the customers are not willing to pay more for... crappy SW :rolleyes:

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

rather a bad example, as it goes... Skype was bought up by... m@ke$$h!t
and that wasn't because of the money (they never made) then simply of the proverbial technical incompetency of m$...despite being in the IM (& VOIP) business for ages, they haven't even figured out how to make it work; the only reason ppl use their $h!t is because they don't know any better

so i just get this right... you bought all the LostDOS CDs / DVDs (maybe even diskettes? hopefully 5¼ ones ¦-)))) from m@ke$$h!t to put them in your book shelf? mind telling us what for?

go tell that to all the companies manufacturing ANDroid devices :D
hardly any ANDroid devices lasts more then a few months, no matter how powerful it is upon release. & none of them ever includes ground breaking HW innovations; merely more of the same (thus no money available for R&D...) :mad:

none of those is/was profitable
either foundations or... see 1st § (Trolltech got acquired by NOKIA and last time i checked, they didn't make any money from it)

0 out of 4... :rolleyes:

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

you seem to forget that the Maemo kernel is available as source code, thus getting ride of those "dependencies" that break the system when removed (calendar, media player, etc) is merely a matter of rewriting the kernel & hildon parts. considering that this is all about ONE device (the venerable N900 :cool:) nobody is willing to go to that extend. but if anyone cares (to push CSSU that far)...

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

You seem to forget that the kernel Maemo comes with, once removed of such impurities, is incredibly broken and works badly, or not at all, on the Nokia Maemo-intended devices--hence the recommended 'binary blobs' you need to build a WORKING kernel. By the way, there are more Maemo devices than the N900 from Nokia (770, N800, N810, N810WE). As I already mentioned before, Mer attempted to make a purely open Maemo translation and that failed miserably with no thanks to Nokia's closed-mindedness. So much for 'nobody is willing to go to that [extent].'

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

He should blame Ahtisaari because he released the N9: that decision killed the Lumia.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

the m$ way of increasing sales...
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/...ng-group/12221
forbid poeple to buy something else >¦-))))))))

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

beg to differ...
what about nouveau?
it's the open source solution for Nvidia cards; the performances aren't (yet) on the level of Nvidia's binary drivers, but the alternative (to a closed source) package exists & works.
same goes for the ATI/AMD stuff (don't remember the o.s. name now)

i'm not saying it's easy and i myself wouldn't even now where to start, but it's possible...

another exemple?
the UOT
simply not supported by NOKIA and still MAG was able to implement it.

again, a matter of size of the community supporting the platform; N900 (NIT's and that Chinese clone you mentioned once) simply don't warrant the effort, alas
and the dedicated users of the N900 simply don't have the resources to do it all (again, more users would help there)
but as Pali proves with the kernel, little by little progress is done (don't shoot me on the details, really don't know how he does it)

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

Well...Microsoft uses much more "evil" instruments than that, of which most people don't even know about. That's just one reason to avoid that company :p Not that Apple (see article) needs any protection though :rolleyes: ...

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

What does ANY of that have to do with Maemo's intentional crippling by Nokia by choosing components that weren't open-source friendly and by closing off even their own software? Are you trying to divert the conversation toward something else that we weren't talking about?

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

What are we talking about again?

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

about this?

http://www.gsmarena.com/it_is_decide...-news-4007.php

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

(one liners at the end :cool:)

okay, obviously we have a different point of view on this.
you say (correct me if i'm wrong)
i say that Nvidia, ATI/AMD, TI (also providing silicon for the N900 btw) don't bother about open source
they couldn't care less
well, not quite
Nvidia & ATI/AMD (among others) take the time to provide BINARY drivers for their HW because not all the programs that professionals may use high-end graphic cards for are available on m$
it's a service to (some of) their customers
incidentally customers who buy $$$$$ configurations

what about N900, N8x0 and 770?
Maemo?
i say we should be thankful to NOKIA for having designed, manufactured and commercialized them and for still paying the bills for this / these site(s)
i think you were among those claiming that NOKIA never sold enough Maemo (OS200x) devices to make a difference anyway, no?

again, it's down to MAG, Pali and others who know how to reverse engineer some of the hardware
and some not, alas.

again, trying to give some perspective on the economic reality NOKIA was confronted with, even before Flop.

why do they keep designing & manufacturing new devices and developing & releasing new versions?
to sabotage it? doesn't make sense to me....

and Flop either could bet the farm on that or....
of course, sabotaging Symbian was plain dumb idiotic, but, hey... no brain, no pain :(


YOU: NOKIA sabotaged Maemo & all

ME: Maemo is only a "research project", not a commercially viable platform; it's up to the community to develop it

agree to disagree?

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

about why NOKIA is in such a bad situation as it is now and it doesn't look like it's going to get better any time soon?

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

It this relevant to the discussion now? Nokia paying AT&T for exclusive employee use of the Lumia 900

It seems like Nokia are now playing the "If you can't sell it, give it away" card.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

Nokia is Microsoft's biatch. Not even "the bottom biatch", just ***** which is used to advertise the product in the attempt to get market share. It must not be an accident they choose the name "Lumia" for the WP-phones. "Lumia" is a prostitute in spanish.

Now they are practically going to give Lumia 900's for free in USA through AT&T. Seems like Lumia 800 and 720 has sold miserably so they have to give Lumia 900's for free. Maybe hackers can create instructions to install Tizen to them and make them also useful to the owners.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

They ARE giving the phones away literally. Microsoft Stores are holding a contest where you put your phone up against a Windows Phone and you complete a task such as checking a fb status or checking the weather. If you lose they will take your old phone and you get a new windows phone. No contracts, no activation, no nothing. I guess MS is collecting on the millions and millions they gave Nokia to get the phones in the hands of US users.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

Whats a windows phone?

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

Nokia 710 HTC Radar etc All stores are out of stock but they are honoring the swap and will call you when phones are back in stock, I have a feeling there are going to be more way more Nokias than any other brand.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

Nokia giving phones for free = false
Microsoft forcing their OS by such tactics (free XBOX anyone?) = true

The fact these were produced by Nokia doesn't make those equal. Nokia got their payment for producing the handsets from MS. For me: the more the merrier. I know this is rather unpopular view here, but Nokia is still in the running thanks to this. With revolutionary handsets (808) and apps they develop (sadly for MS only now, nokia transport sounds very awesome for my usage case at least): they can regain field once the shill's been kicked out. And on the other hand, both google and apple could use some competition, so bleed your money MS, bipoly(?) is just as bad as monopoly, just look at ISP options for most of US, horror stories. People get bored of same thing also it seems. Hope WP can even the field, introduce the 'looking for something new' approach into consumers, N9's swype would really have a chance to explode then

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

Yeah and it loooks like just another fail brought to us by the laughing stock of the mobile industry AKA Microsoft. Apparently some dude with a Galaxy nexus won against the Win Phail and he was denied his prize at the store.

http://blog.gsmarena.com/windows-pho...-just-because/

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

That is like the mobile equivalent of Rock,Paper,Scissors and yet MS still can't help themselves from their underhanded ways.

Would it not have been better to have given the guy the prize in the first place in an attempt to show people they are playing fair? (even tho it was rigged by both parties)

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget....5/kin60031.jpg

Anyone remember Kin1 and Kin2, Oddly it looks like a palm Pre, :)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...e/Palm_Pre.jpg

Life and death of the Microsoft Kin: The inside story

what Killed the Kin

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

He did get his laptop AND a WP phone, so win-win for MS, would only stuff him with laptop without all the PR (black going on grey, damagecontrol white) shtick. Now another WP phone is out there too (and a couple of frontpage reddit posts about nonexisting ecosystem), couldn't plan it better

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

I think what you see there is the influence of Matias Duarte


He was the director of design for Danger inc who made the Hip-tops and Michael Knights tom-tom, err I mean Side Kicks

Notice the crystal keypad?

http://cdn-static.cnet.co.uk/i/c/rv/.../440x330_3.jpg

It had a rather nice UI too, shame about it being tide to the cloud and so locked down that it makes Apple look hedonistic.

Anyway, he left to join Palm to become VP of Human Interface and User Experience. In the mean time M$ bought Danger and decided to release the Kin using their new properties and swallowing Dangers Cloud Services that MS has built upon today.

Matias's work can still be enjoyed today too, he is the guy we can thank for a little project called Ice Cream Sandwich.

This bloke is an interface legend IMO.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

Don't forget Nokia is heavily subsidizing the Lumia with carriers and giving free gifts for standalone purchases. In U.S. the Lumia 900 will be sold at US$99.99 for 2 years contract while other models are at least US$200 for the same terms. How desperate can you get?

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

He is auctioning both his winnings to charity as an 'up yours' to MS. Pie in the face for them.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

Microsoft Likes IP of companies, So it would not come as a surprise if the deal was just to get some Intellectual Property rights that Nokia holds, Like with danger, Ms was only interested in their intellectual properties. I wish Nokia well, really i do, But i have no idea whats going on.

Nokia is fragmented, This is a bad image, they released a 41 MP phone which got people excited but the problem was, it was on a symbian platform, Seeing Elop has already said so much bad things about Symbian. calling it "A burning Platform" and giving a Date of Death, this looks strange. It's almost Like, Nokia is scared, or does not trust Ms Windows phone. Because surely if you are releasing something like the worlds first 41mp Phone (to get peoples attention), seeing WP7 is their Hope, they would use WP7 right?

Maybe this is a cry for help from the deep vaults of Nokia, who knows? Maybe Nokia has been highjacked? well it's too late now, lets hope WP7 does well...

Oddly, have you noticed that it is Nokia who is complaining about the bad sales, Not Microsoft?

The Nokia-Microsoft relationship is really bad... Nokia cannot go to android-- for Nokia maps reasons.

and to Go back to symbian and meego would seem like an embarrassment, seeing they "HE" dissed it so bad. I mean not even Samsung is dissing their bada platform, and it's not doing very well.

Hope they do well, windows needs to innovate... at current speed, windows Phone does not offer anything, Android, iOs, and other Os's don't already have.

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

HILARIOUS! Best part is that EVEN WITH THE RIGGING, the Microsoft phone STILL lost against a Galaxy Nexus. FTA: "According to the latest report by The Verge, Microsoft admits to using only those challenges where it knows it will have an upper hand, while avoiding those where it could lose or the result would be a tie, among other things. So no, there is nothing random (and might I even add fair) about these events and everything, including the part where you lose to the Windows Phone, is part of the plan."

A little too late to save face, though. If I were the guy, I would make sure to collect the laptop and then immediately install Linux on it just to make a point. :)

For maps reasons? What reasons are those? Couldn't Nokia put their maps application out for Android? Hell--if it's actually good, it might make them more money than their half-arsed Windows Phones. I've seen a few third-party mapping apps on Android that were done at least as good as Google's (I tend to use Waze no a daily basis--a LOT more than Google Maps, even though I love them both for different reasons). Once again, it's nice to have a platform where I can HAVE both a wide array of software (unlike Nokia) AND competition (unlike iOS).

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

Seems that Microsoft doens't care that much about Navteq and Nokia anyways: http://www.electronista.com/articles...treetmap.data/

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

> I cannot remember the whole story, Because at the time i read it, i was not really interested in the Nokia-Windowsphone-Android story,

But i believe it Goes like this. Nokia Acquires Navteq and Develop maps Ovi Maps(Called Nokia maps), If i remember correctly Nokia goes to google and Ms because Nokia realizes that their Market share is falling, when i say Go i mean talks...


In short for Nokia to move to android (In their eyes) "EMPHISIS ON IN THEIR EYES, MAINLY ELOP AND CHAIRS"
(I'm sure some shareholders are not happy)

They will lose what makes them different, this is why on the Nokia Lumia 800 there are not one mapping Software installed, But three, Nokia Maps, Nokia Drive, and Bing (Microsoft maps)

note- Nokia spends more money on R & D than apple.

Also the deal with Microsoft means that Microsoft would add a large amount to the Pot, thus the really aggressive Nokia Lumia series advertising we all have been seeing

Now this is where it gets a bit complicated, According to the deal between Nokia and Microsoft, Nokia have Powers that other manufactures, Say, HTC, Samsung,LG, do not have, this is why Elop keeps saying the relationship between Ms-Nokia is special.

For example, Android has a Unique App store,(Put in motion by the owners, GOOGLE) but between Nokia-Microsoft, Nokia store will have integration into Ms Market place. For Nokia, this could not have been done on the Android Os so she still has some stuff for her self. meaning? She might get a larger share of the profit from her own store.

Nokia can innovate upon Windows phone platform, On the Android Os they cannot -- If i am not mistaken Google Requires that the stock android stays intact? Even though there is a skin above it?

But with Windows phone, Nokia can improve upon it, IE. they said imaging can be improved by nokia. and i presume Ms will use nokia to improve their GPS and Radio features, Poor nokia.

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/p...rtnership.mspx


Read more: http://articles.businessinsider.com/...#ixzz1qPPerzx0

So under the deals, Lets say it like this, Nokia would have alot of her rent paid for her, By Microsoft, but the problem is, Microsoft only wants intellectual Properties, >so i think <

So you see, the share holders were blinded by moneyca appeal, According to the deal, Microsoft will pay nokia $2 BILLION, for using their technology,patents and nokia can do modification in areas they are allowed. Under Google android, I believe Nokia would have to be the one, talking out her check book...

so in a summary Microsoft looked like Nokia's only hope, because Nokia can make demands, On the Android Os it's do as i say by Google.

So modifications that Nokia can add in the Windows phone 7 Os, they cannot add in the Android Os,

but nokia share prices keep falling, at one point, Ms will be faced with a choice, watch the deal fall to bits, or buy Nokia(or a large chunk) like Sony and Ericsson (Sony ericsson)

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

this will backfire badly...
the employees will be so pissed @ the disfunctionality of Flopware (compared to the iPhones 4(s) & ANDroid super phones they had to give in in exchange...) that they will (sincerely) recommend to the customers anything BUT...
>¦-)))))))))))))

Re: Nokia CEO Blames Salesmen For Windows Phone Struggles
 

You might be on to something there. These sales people are very likely to have the latest iPhones and super-droids, some may have been given to them by droid & apple promotions likewise.

They may have already invested a fair wad of $$$ in their chosen app market and with every free promo device or upgrade can take their apps with them. So Nokia/MS might see even more reluctant salesmen than expected as they would not want to re-purchase what little they can from the MS market.