Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

well if one could turn a beagleboard into a tablet-like, then its not that far off...

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Right on, brutha. And like they always say, "Hardware is the b*tch of software, and your ISP is just another utility." Well, maybe it's just me who says that.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Well, those points about VoIP, HSPA, and even processors are relevant. And moreso than UI at this point. There's only concepts of UI that we can talk about in this thread that are relevant to Maemo 5. Everything else is based on use of Diablo and conjecture towards what we can see.

Until those other pieces are ironed out, and some defined rules come out of those pieces such as:

- there will be a touchscreen, but what type
- there will be a capable enough processor to do video out, but how so
- will there be a physical keyboard
- and so on...

For us to stay on topic in this thread, those answers would be needed. Nothing about UI/UX was detailed in any notes that came from the summit.

Now, if we wanna start talking about what UI concepts could be present in Maemo 5 (in effect building the bridge before we get to the stream); then either on the Tablet UI Blog, or here in another thread, we can start that discussion.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Well personally, I think the comments about VoIP are relevant, and the comments about HSPA are relevant (I made some of them), but the comments on VoIP over HSPA are not nearly so.

You are wrong to say that a speculative discussion of UI is not, or even less, relevant. Excuse me, but we have an existing UI with Diablo release, and I am trying to sort out (with all the discussion of moving to desktop frameworks) how that is going to continue to play out; not building the bridge of a new UI before the stream (not that I even udnerstand that metaphor...).

There is plenty of off-topic discussion having nothing to do with Maemo 5 so why are you interrupting my UI in Maemo 5 discussion? If you are not interested in the UI conversation, then simply don't participate in it.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Interrupting? Uh...

I am only continuing what I started when I began responding in this thread many pages ago.

My opinion is that one cannot talk about UI when the frameworks for making one are not established. There has been very little towards defined hardware and UX goals for M5 that have been given, and therefore any conversation on UI will be full of conjecture from Diablo and other previous experience. Those experiences aren't invalid, they just have no context in the next OS until those frameworks come.

My aim is cohesion when we do get the device in hand; which - according to what has been seen so far of the plans for M5 - is the context we should view things for M5.

Not interrupting, just adding context ;)

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

• The test HW will be open. The final HW won't, but if you are interested in general into OMAP3 based boards, I suppose the TI SDP and the Beagl board schematics should be open. Same goes for Pandora. OK, we have also the cellmo, but that's a Nokia asic and you are not going to see it open anytime soon. OTOH few days ago the implementation for the SSI driver (OMAP-cellmo interface) has been posted to the linux-omap ml.
• the ARM 9 mentioned is in an ST uC:
  http://www.st.com/mcu/devicedocs-STR911FAM47.html
• The ethernet is used to output the measured samples and make them available to a standard PC (due to the high traffic we plan to use an USB2ETH adapter).

Recently we also released a tool for kernel power management debugging:
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux...match=launonen

That is the proof that we are really trying to be as open as we can, not just releasing a code dump and running away, but instead making available the very same tools we use.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

But... is that increasing???

:D

(sorry for the bad joke... I could not resist)

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Fine, provide all the substantive comments and context you want. But my conversation on UI is not O/T and is inappropriate because it's based on conjecture. A lot of the posts here are conjecture or speculation. Your opinion as to what should be discussed is not more important than anybody else's and this is the third post in a row you have purported to say what should be discussed in this thread. As to interrupting... you told me to take my conversation somewhere else - to wit:

"For us to stay on topic in this thread, those answers would be needed. Nothing about UI/UX was detailed in any notes that came from the summit.
Now, if we wanna start talking about what UI concepts could be present in Maemo 5 (in effect building the bridge before we get to the stream); then either on the Tablet UI Blog, or here in another thread, we can start that discussion."

Interrupting was a bit of a polite euphemism when you TWICE IN A ROW said that, in your opinion, the UI wasn't worth talking about and told me to go somewhere else to talk about it even after I politely asked your indulgence in letting me talk about UI.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

I'd like to ask ALL participants in this thread a few things:

-indulge everyone who engages in reasonable speculation that stems from the original topic. I think we can all acknowledge that it's a pretty broad door.

-try to avoid denigrating someone's position unless of course that position involves trolling. Personally I find the posts that are purely negative and contain nothing constructive to be trolling or very close.

Now, this is Reggie's forum and I'm no moderator-- I'm just asking as one who for the most part is enjoying the discussion... and that includes contributions from SD69 and ARJWright. ;)

EDIT: and yes, I include my recent sarcastic post to be negative... sorry. :D

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Ahh, yes it was slow but somebody at Nokia told me it was because of the software (S70 was it?). They knew the HW would catch up; it was the software fork which evidently did the product in.

We also might not have the iPhone (the large icons on the iPhone gave me deja vu). The 7710 was just landscape orientation instead of portrait.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

... :-| ...

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Since we're all speculating where things will be going - let me toss in a few thoughts: The one thing that I have come to realise I love the most about my N810 is not the device itself, but all the software you guys have been contributing and porting. That to me, is probably THE distinguishing factor. And yet, is open source not also a hinderance to mainstream acceptance? The fact that it took so long to get a wordprocessor working, while there are umpteen music/media players - is that a reflection of the open source community all being music listeners, but none of them caring about writing a quote for a customer to get some dosh in the door? Still no PDA apps? Spreadsheet? (with respects to gnumeric which isnt cutting it yet) The N8xx is a great leisure device, but at my office and at my desk I switch on 'mainstream' office apps. Now here is my question - Is there space in the Maemo ecosystem for software developers to write commercial apps? And before all the purists howl in indignation, think for a moment; by excluding mainstream commercial app developerment, is Maemo and the tablets not running the risk of always being the domain of the after-hours anarchic (said with the greatest love and admiration) computer geek? How does the community go about getting the tablets to be mainstream? Is that where it should go? Or should it remain the device-of-choice for the few in-the-know? Put another way - are there commercial opportunities in the Maemo/tablet world, short of reselling tablets?

Maybe the future will be segmented as follows: teenagers and trendistas on iphones, businesspeople on blackberries, middle-of-the-roaders on Nokias/samsungs etc and geeks on Maemo devices? This would be my worst case scenario - leaving the masses beholden to the carriers and a bunch of hardcore open sourcers (you guys) feeling superior and smug about making free telephone calls (to SOME people) and getting free TV (to SOME stations) and getting free 5 year old games, but wondering why all the money flows to the other side and the action happens around the latest sexy UI that we all know actually does very little, but looks good? I repeat - How does Maemo/tablets get to go mainstream?

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

geeks dont care about fancy typesetting, as long as they get their tab lengths correct ;)

remember, geeks wear t-shirts, not shirt and tie...

but hey, i dont have a problem with commercial software, as long as nokia do not block of the hackers (in the classical sense) to cater to the commercial vendors.

still, geeks have other options coming, with things like bug labs products, pandora and openmoko. hell, even android may be interesting (altho im cautious about that one).

as for feeling smug and superior, i thought that job was taken by the apple faithful ;)

but then maybe your asking the wrong question. rather then asking how, maybe one should ask:

do maemo need to go mainstream?

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Talking on the same subject of UI - desktop vs Mobile (I am also interested in the UI design aspect of mobile apps) ...

There is this factor that I consider appropriate for the mobile device ...
if we look at the MS office (or OO) and see how many options its has as a full fledged word editor and then look at Google Docs (in its initial form at least), and Google Docs as a web office app - has less menus, less clutter - more web centric and quite different from the desktop counterpart (of its competitors) with less functions too.

But I can create a basic word document in Google DOC and share it collaboratively - and then on the desktop - I can export to MS Word and enhance it and upload back into Google doc again with all the formatting more or less intact.

This is the paradigm I am looking at from a mobile app perspective ...
on the mobile application it should allow finger friendly (or stylus friendly - but less menus pls) interface, scaled for a smaller screen foot-print, and take mobility into question when designing it. This way it allows for basic to intermediate functions.
The desktop counterpart of the same app would then allow to enhance ths basic skeleton with more enhanced functions and use that again on the mobile device.

This is of course relevant to apps which have a desktop application counterpart (ported apps, or multi-platform based apps).

But straight away using the desktop application on the mobile device is a bit defeating I think.

And this analogy can be extended the other way - Tablet to phone (think about Tabletblogs 'Ntropy' post).

The tablet can act as a extension to the phone apps (at least based on Nokia platform S60) and extend their cabability - like a SMS/MMS app on the Nokia tablet which actually talks to the phoe app and send the SMS thru the phone (like it already does to some extent).

Or have a Flickr app - which can view the photos off the phone and then allows one to add tags/descriptions on the tablet before uploading to web. (and I am not talking about transfering over BT and then doing the same job on the copy on the tablet)

These are just examples of what I believe would be a good symbiosis of different platforms to work cohesively together. That is were the power of a open mobile platform can really shine. (of course standard protocols are needed for this).

Just my 2 cents of imagination and thought.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Hey, not true. Which is why we have LaTeX.

Me either; I think while the general opinion is that the platform should be (a lot more) open, there's a lot of room for closed source and/or commercial apps; right now we have several third-party closed apps, but none that cost money (that I'm aware of; they're all subscription-based); there's been substantial interest in getting some closed, and presumably money-costing, apps ported, but most of the "real apps" shops are not interested, as we're even nicher than desktop Linux.

In a sense, going (closer to) mainstream is what's needed to get any apps, but that needn't indicate any change in the platform; a sufficient influx of advertising $ would do it. (Not that that would make any sense, as the benefits probably wouldn't be worth the cost, but it would be possible if some philanthropic billionaire wanted to.)

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

You know, the disappointing, ugly truth is that the "community" didn't work the way it could have.
I see very promising changes happening now, but during the first years, I was a little disappointed at how little software-development (or even porting) there was. PIM-suite... OMG! Remember everyone crying for Nokia to add PIM functionality? If somebody at Nokia really wanted to let the whole tablet-line die, all he'd have to do is highlight the fact that the community couldn't even produce what it obviously wanted most: a maybe simple, but solid, well-integrated calendar and contacts application.

I'm a purist, but I won't howl in indignation. There is room for commercial apps, sure. Look at this navigation software (I forgot what it's called) that's pre-installed but you need to pay for if you use it. Or Skype. Skype is a commercial application of course, even though it doesn't cost anything.
Of course there's room.

The question is if there's need. I consider myself a very average user. In a Windows world, I'd use MS office (at least World, Excel and PowerPoint), Internet Explorer, Photoshop (or more likely something slightly less powerful), Outlook of course, a few chat and IM applications, media players of all kinds, RSS readers... well. That kind of stuff.
I don't use Windows at home and I can do everything the listed applications would do for me with non-commercial programs. So I don't see a need for commercial vendors to provide anything. Free (as in freedom and beer) software is not made by amateurs during rainy weekends. Most of it is done by professional companies. The quality is the same, the business model is different.

The situation with Maemo could be slightly different. The community failed to produce or even port the wealth of software that would be needed for such a device. Maybe it would be wise to let commercial vendors step in to jump-start the whole process, show off the power of the platform, thereby attract people who say "Oh, if they can do it, let's see if maybe I can do even better"... could work.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Well, turns out the dsme open sourcing may not be as much of a coup as it should've been. In fact, it may turn out to be more of a token open sourcing, as a lot of its logic may be being move to mce (which will remain closed).

Only second-hand hearsay at the moment, but it doesn't look very promising. I suppose we'll know for sure when Nokia (finally) gets around to releasing the code.

If it does turn out to be just a token gesture, and dsme has just been stripped down to a bunch of function calls to mce. . . . Oh boy, Nokia, you're gonna get destroyed. I will personally see to it that you get nothing but bad press for pulling a stunt like this.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

That would be... irritating, to say the least. Your help will be appreciated, of course, but I can't see how any other outcome is possible. If they do that, it'll be one of the greatest "What were they thinking?" moments of all history.

I suppose we should be trying not to be too upset until we know for sure, but hopefully if they are doing it, they'll read the reaction here and come to their senses.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Well, I don't expect it to get them to do anything, but I definitely can't let them skate by pulling a stunt like that. ;)

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

What I meant, specifically, was your help ensuring they get bad press over it. (The "outcome" was getting bad press, contingent on proceeding.) It may not be too late for them to abandon such a plan (if they're on it), but if that is their plan, and if they proceed, nothing will stop them from getting bad press.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Ah, right. Well, specifically, I'm thinking not everybody may realize exactly what it means, or may not follow up on it beyond hearing that they were planning on releasing it last week.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

According to these old posts, the dsme framework is relatively trivial software.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

You've missed my point. They're moving stuff out of dsme as part of the open sourcing process.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

I don't think he was saying that it is trivial software, he was saying that he felt that it would be trivial to rewrite the code from scratch by looking at the API. That means what its doing is fairly obvious. He was saying that other closed parts of the OS would be far harder to rewrite from scratch.

I personally think he was trying to downplay the fact that they weren't open sourcing the code. If replacing stuff like dsme and mce was trivial, somebody would have done it, right?

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

also known as assembler for print jobs? ;)

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Er, it's the oppsite.. you _don't_ have to manually position things with LaTeX. But we're diverging from the thread.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

true true, even tho it kinda falls into the "eyecandy vs functionality" sub-theme, no?

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

The multimedia architecture talk seemed to confirm an OMAP3430: it had a big slide saying "OMAP2420 Multimedia Architecture" (describing what we've got now); and the next was "OMAP3430 Multimedia Architecture" describing things like OpenMAX etc.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

anything else would really surprise me as i suspect nokia has a long standing cooperation with ti, and the other tablets have been using chips that nokia had available for their phones anyways (especially the 770 was probably built from left over parts).

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

also, ari jaaksi links to the OMAP3430 on his blog.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Let's wait and see. That does not make much sense to me. At least when using names dsme, mce etc. My understandind is that dsme it pretty much dead and they are moving to different architecture (no initfs, OHM, ..). So if they are opensourcing dsme my understanding is that they are opensourcing current code and current architecture of N8x0 tablets. So unless last Diablo update manages to do this 'moving', I don't see how it could be done and still be called dsme.

We'll see. As already told here dsme is relatively simple and most of its inner working is either known or is not so important with one exception - accessing config partition implemented in /mnt/initfs/usr/lib/dsme/libcalmodule.so. For me this is the only interesting part. Also somehow I don't believe they will open this part but let's hope.