Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

a possible successor to N9, possibly hacked kernel to dual boot into new MeeGo

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Also probably more Qt applications that may then be ported for N9.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

I think so far nothing was even said about their balance of closed vs open parts. Let's hope there will be as little closed parts as possible. Especially in the UX area. Closed drivers can be probably expected (it's just close to impossible to get open drivers from the manufacturers). But having open UX will ensure that this system will live on. Closed ones (like Harmattan) just die out, when the company can't develop it anymore for whatever reason.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

I'm pretty confident that current MeeGo apps won't be so hard to port to new MeeGo

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Torrenting is a great example of something I positively do not want to do when on battery power and hoping to rely on my phone to get past the day.

This is why I suggested a dual mode. Smartphones today are very close to being powerful enough that they can begin to replace our laptops. So why not? A phone that operates with a dual mode: full on desktop type machine when connected to power and external display. Then with practical limits for when it is on battery power (which you can turn off, if you know what you're doing). These limits are worth having as the default setup as it's the kind of thing most people would rather not think of. The limits then help (as they do on iOS) to manage battery life and, to some extent, memory usage.

It requires some rethinking of how to build apps and their UIs for dual operation, but Qt has everything there to make it possible (so does iOS/OSX, for that matter — Android doesn't really). Besides, almost all good apps these days have to consider that duality anyway. Now they're just released as two separate applications.

It's the device I've been talking about for the past couple of years. Motorola had an early experiment on those lines, but it was quite limited. It could be that the time is right for Jolla to now do it.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

it's actually something i talked to my Lecturer about today, He's a proper all things open source guru. Has 10 raspberry pi's uses debian does not need a mouse, can watch movies in asci :D

i spoke to him about open source software and he was annoyed about a small part of raspberry pi Ethernet driver code being closed. "He said 99.9% of it is open and 0.1% is closed and i don't like that"

But look at this community, the N900 is such a hit, the mods, fixes, changes, physical amendments ...ect it's an open source toy you can have endless fun with.

Before N9 i knew nothing of this but now i am feeling moving away from Windows and M$ ********. I really want a truly open source phone.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Oh, the n900 has been able to do that for years now. We have easy debian which can run many of the desktop .deb programs that maemo can and also full desktop apps such as GIMP and Open office (and more).

The only limitation was RAM, yes we have to wait a little longer for open office to load but once it is up it runs fine. We also have BT HID input too with TVout.

It is a pretty nifty concept that would be great to have with Jolla.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Well since Nemo mobile has been working fine on the n9, and this is a long shot, but if jolla mobile is fully open it can be ported to the mer core

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Haha, Bada is a bigger hit than WP7. Sold more than WP& + windows Mobile combined.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

No, he isn't.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Great example, but I have to call in question how popular this truly is on a mobile device.

I ask out of curiosity and a true lack of numbers.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Well, I did a somewhat similar thing today - I downloaded all the OpenStreetMap tiles for a large city I'm visiting this weekend. It took nearly 8 hours on my N900, but since I was able to do it all in a background process, it did not have much effect on the other things I did with my phone today. I'm not sure I could have done that with iOS.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

I like the idea of a rough-hewn, DIY setup left for the community to finish up. This is what Nokia was REALLY doing with the tablet series, though they were pretending to release finished products. It would be nice if a major company openly participated in a truly collaborative effort with the community not playing second fiddle as it has here.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

They are using Mer core already. Jolla also donated servers for Mer community OBS.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Okay... this I can totally see happening. But a torrent on my phone? I can't say that I've been personally enticed to do that.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

I have downloaded files with aTorrent (sgs3, ics) in the background while doing other things like www browsing and photo shooting on the foreground. Multitasking or "multitasking" is no issue in high end Android phones for practical things.

To succeed really, for example right now, JollaMeego should be installable to the top end smartphones like sgs3. Because Android will continue to be more open and better "real multitasking" OS, (if) with inferior hardware specs, Jolla-phones may not make it. Samsung prolly will bring Tizen installable to its high end Android phones eventually.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Picking out the separate threads that have come up in recent weeks, it would seem that MeeGo is going to be at the centre of a convergence of sorts, able to run applications/apps from multiple platforms...

Fremantle - http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...light=meecolay

iOS - http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...08#post1236908

Tizen - http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...ighlight=tizen

Android would be a possibility if the ACL can be exported from Tizen.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

I don't think I would really use a torrent on my phone (e.g.: never did). But I can imagine that tablet users that have no desktop/laptop would definitely use torrents, and tablets (at the moment) mostly have the same culprits (iOS/Android).

But then, you could also just have power profiles (power saving / normal / power burning) and let the user decide. Or directly let the user decide, and let him not start a torrent app when he doesn't need to (this sadly doesn't work with buggy apps that eat CPU while you don't expect them to).

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Another use-case for not killing background processes is on-device development. Lets say I'm on the train, doing some coding, and then compile my project. The last thing I want is for the process to be killed off because I have left it compiling in the background while I'm doing something else.

One of the reasons I was initially drawn to the N900 was because it is a fully functional computer that can fit in my pocket. IMHO a mobile computer should be able to do everything any other computer can do. Yes there are hardware limitations on a mobile device - I know that compiling on the device will be slow and will reduce my battery life but I don't have a problem with that.

I accept the hardware limitations but I don't want artificial software limitations imposed on me by sub-standard multi-tasking.

Given that Jolla's core is Mer, I expect it will have proper multi-tasking anyway.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Hey,

What do you think about this:

http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2011/...kia-defection/

contrasted with:

http://www.intomobile.com/2012/07/11...ext-available/

"Been going to China every month for about a year"

Coincidence?

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

@kkito
Asian market is seriously big, there is a lot of potential there

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Exactomundo! Jolla would indeed be ill advised, not to use multitasking. Sooner or later all mobile OS will have to overcome such artifical restrictions, because the hardware is getting more and more powerful. These devices will replace more and more PCs or notebooks, if the user can use them like such simply by attaching HMI devices (like a docking station).

One comment to the argument "wild running apps drain the battery": Wouldn't it be enough to display a coloured circle somewhere near the battery symbol to indicate the system load? Even some cars indicate their current fuel consumption, so the driver can shift gears to save fuel. I think almost every similar approach would be more reasonable than artifical restrictions like "optimised multitasking", however intelligent and sophisticated designed and implemented that would be.

One of the most convincing arguments for multitasking has been presented by Microsoft: They were not able to use Skype (which has been bought for a huge amount of money) on their Lumia devices for the simple reason: They needed an interface to compensate missing multitasking. This is ridiculous.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

I'm thinking well beyond this level. Instead, the ability to have the same application running, but with two different user interfaces, depending on how it is being used at any particular time (desktop vs mobile), and optimising resources accordingly.

I see the appeal of full multitasking, but most of the time people —*including myself —*would rather not have to go to the bother of working out which background processes are sucking up all the juice. The iPhone's model works reasonably well for the majority of multitasking activities and battery usage is reasonably predictable. Where my N9 can quite suddenly suck through its battery, and you have to do a bit of debugging to work out what is doing it.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Guys, what is all the spam about? Jolla is going to run Mer, and I hardly believe, that they would invest work to replace proper multi-tasking with fake, capped, pseudo-multitasking.

Not to mention, that users wouldn't forgive them doing so - no one like having possibilities restricted, just because "some users may be too dumb to use that properly". Mobile computers (even with phone functionality) are for people with brain, that are able to check power consumption at any given moment. Others are free to buy iphones and androids (more likely former, than the later).

/Estel

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Even harder to believe that they would abandon proper multitasking when the CEO says that multitasking is one key strenghts:

"We want to inherit the best elements from MeeGo," says Hurmola. He does mention that they believe multitasking is an issue that other smartphones don't do well by making users open and close apps constantly."

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Freak sake!!! Create another thread if people want to discuss digferent multitasking!!

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

You are all trolling youself in this thread. :D There are too many that think they know somthing and must post it here. Why not create a thread for professionals?

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Well, this is more from a technical angle and my own personal curiousity, how about we do a discussion on how to technically do proper battery-life-saving, memory-saving multitasking on Linux?

There's a couple of interesting topics:
* WiFi traffic activity of background applications
* Radio wakeup for GPRS/3G communication
* SIGSTOP of background applications while you're touching the device
* Cgroups and ways to 'freeze' or limit background applications
* Application design to be better power consumers when backgrounded
* Hibernation of state

.. go!

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

I think this is really bad desing. You should not force applications to do anything. There should be nice APIs and instructions for that kind of stuff so that developers themselves can make the call when needed and proper quality assurance to see that applications are working as they should. There is no need to cripple our nice Linux OS.

These are points I like.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

That is precisely the point of a device like the N900 and that's why we love it. The ability to do things that are not popular.

It's not popular to have an option to play sound on both hw speakers and headphones and I wouldn't put it there if I was designing a phone. But guess what? I needed it and it I could do it with the N900.

It's not popular to want to drop cellular functionality altogether when wifi is available but it prolongs my battery life significantly and my usage pattern fits perfectly to it.

I have seen all kinds of weird "features" people have implemented on this board that for 99% is a "who would want that" feature.

And by the way torrents are something I use 5 or 6 times a year on the N900. All those little things that you know you can do on the N900 are the reason I never carry a laptop with me unless I'm pretty sure I'll have to sit on a desk and work for a couple of hours. Everything else I may need to do can be done on the NIT. Having it in my pocket along with two japods makes me feel it's alright to leave the laptop at home.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Sometime next year I want to see one of the Jolla staff give a Ted Talk on their incredible journey and success and the power of open source.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

About the battery saving issue I want to propose more of a hardware solution:

Dual core = 1 proper arm based core 1.5Ghz and slave core low spec.

To deal with background tasks and other simple things have main core turned off and use slave core.

This has been proven to work really well with Tegra 3 chips having 4 main cores and 1 slave(companion core)
http://cdn2.ubergizmo.com/wp-content...ra3-5cores.jpg

more info here

Video here

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Something with my experience with the N900 is that if you want this OS to be functional as the phone, the phone app needs to be able to respond to human input quickly. At times, because something in the background was eating processing cycles, I haven't been able to answer a call because the phone app wasn't coming up and allowing me to respond.

Now, we can talk about how everyone should be well behaved, but the customer doesn't care about that. They care if the device is responsive.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

But if you were a small company, would you put out a device that could only do what a very small percentage of folks that own phones/mobile devices could do?

You're creating a niche within a niche that way. Not saying that the esoteric things such as a torrent file on your mobile is the only thing it can do, but refining the main mobile device usage will invariably take precedence or they (Jolla) will release a rather specialized device that may sell in even less numbers than the N900.

That could spell disaster for a startup.

The rest of the things you're talking about... I get what you're saying. I just wish to discuss my concern over creating a device that only serves a minor portion of what people actually use it for versus trying to hit a larger, sweet spot.

Given that it's made on MeeGo, I'm sure it'll be geeky enough - as long as they don't bring Aegis along - to satisfy the N900 user as long as they can do the torrents + other usages that made it popular within that crowd.

I just have to question that those things might have made it popular here... it didn't make it popular as a device outside of this group.

Wait. Isn't this just airplane mode?

Quite. But those one-offs are mainly due to the flexible nature of Maemo 5. That flexibility is the key, not the features imho.

Okay... cool to hear that. Despite not being a personal need of mine, thank you for sharing how/why you use that. Makes more sense to me.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Its just marketing campaign from Nvidia and proves nothing. Btw. if you really want to use Nvidia chipset we for sure will have more closed drivers also... look on the Linux desktop and NVidia... And as we know Linus says **** NVidia ;)

However I thinks its better for coders to "learn" powersafe our apps instead.

And if we make more apps (and backends) "opensource" we can also help each other to kill those "buggy" apps. Just an example the one that was reported on some blog for some week ago about search/tracker db that did wakeup because battery app did change desktop file on Harmattan. There is probadly more example of similar stuff that can be improved if as much as possible is open sourced.

http://pvanhoof.be/blog/index.php/20...nd-smartsearch

For me its important the OS gives us as much freedom as possible. But that also means: coders have responsibilities powersafe theyr apps and optimize our code. Some examples:

• If app is minimized turn of timers or other stuf that is not used. When the app is "inactive"

• If using NFC diconnect from NFC bus when minimized (Then the probadly closed nfc backend daemon should fully turn off NFC if no apps is connected to it for xx seconds (this is not the case on N9 but hopefully could be implemented in JollaMobile's (because I take it for granted that JollaMobile's will have NFC ;)

• Do not use python or similar for critical apps/daemons etc.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

That's true, from what they say Jolla's MeeGo should be much more open source and if your making a free app might as well provide the source code.

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

I hope this is not a repost But didnt se this before but related to Jolla :)

http://pvanhoof.be/blog/index.php/20...a-should-do-it

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

Another interesting powersafe concept: Woodchuck

Might be interesting to also group the requests, so that the radio is woken just once, the requests are quickly processed so that it can quickly go back to sleep.

Other "powersaving best-practices":
* make the application event driven
* don't use busy waiting unless it is absolutely necessary
* don't redraw the screen if the application window is not visible

Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 

as far as i know they'll be doing few interviews so i guess it won't be an announcement