Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

MS will most likely provide support and marketing and stuff, but Nokia will still pay royalties for WP7... (that's the revenue part of the partnership for MS, so it's unlikely that it will disapear)

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

How do you work that one out when Elop is the CEO and Nokia will only be making the hardware, unless someone is very stupid i very much doubt Microsoft will want or even need royalties from a partner ? even if sold under the name of Nokia.

It all depends i guess on the partnership contract.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

That's how partnerships work. The hardware maker (OEM) in this case Nokia, will pay Microsoft a certain percentage of the price of every phone they sell. That is the nature of the business. The situation Nokia is in right now, is an uncommon and unnecessary one, considering how the first impressions of Harmattan/Meego hybrid.

Anyway, I understand many of the folks here are open source junkies and tinkerers, but I think WP7 gets too much unnecessary flak. It seems quite promising imo. Misses some key features, but not enough for me to call it junk and all the other disparaging things people say here.
Android is a great OS, but a bugfest as I've come to notice with seemingly ALL google software, I've passed through quite a few, and they've all been troublesome. I currently use a Nexus S.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Obviously the terms of the contract are confidential, but royalties payment have been mentionned in february.
Exemple:

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

It's over. Just admit it already. Elop has infiltrated Nokia and he's begun his treacherous reign by swearing fealty to Microsoft on behalf of everyone in the company. Ruinous lowlife.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

I always take the "vampire rule" in regards to infiltration - think: Lost Boys.

If he was invited in, the damage made should be blamed on the person(s) inviting that entity in... I'm still stuck on blaming the board of directors for inviting in Elop.

Here's where we're just going to have to disagree. Your arguments aren't that well thought out in regards to sales, especially around what will happen simply because it has yet to happen for: Samsung, LG, Dell, HTC have not sold in record quantities. In fact, Dell is basically "dumping" the Venue Pro on eBay direct sales for half price basically.

The whole belief that Microsoft is the answer... I disagree with wholly. I'll caveat my belief by also stating that the N9 is not the answer for Nokia either. Neither phone or phone ecosystem tied to either of those possibilities will help Nokia regain their lost share.

In fact, I bet that it will drop their core share to something half of what it is today in just 1 year - that's called speculation, not fact. Mainly because Zune Marketplace isn't even in most of those places, so that means content isn't there. Now that ecosystem is starting to lack some bite - Microsoft's that is. They're finally testing in Australia now for WP7.

Bada has more exposure to more countries than WP7. And I'd call Bada a niche player.

So no... if you want to discuss rationally things, I'm game and I do not feel as if you're thinking through it all. Elop deserves no praise. No decision he's done so far has furthered Nokia's endeavors nor helped their bottom line. Everything that Nokia has on the plate is for a later delivery.

N9 - later this year. WP7 devices - later this year. Last huge device was a Symbian device (N8)... which they're slowly abandoning and/or have given to Accenture. So... yeah. I don't see any truth to what you and e-boy (forgot his name, not intentional) are ranting and raving about.

I have a WP7 phone. Right now. Let me tell you this... it ain't ready for primetime. I've also played with build 7661 of Mango. Allow me to say that it brings some nice things to the table; still not ready for primetime.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

OOooo... I found a site pimping behind-the-scene pictures of a slightly pre-CEO Elop courting the Nokia board!
Check it out!!

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Explain further if you don't mind :) I'd like to hear the shortcomings as you sound like you have particular needs

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

i'd like to object to the use of the word proof in the title of this thread

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Multi-tasking is still a bit sub-par as compared to N900's method of multi-tasking. Closer to Palm since it's a card based method that looks like it was spawned from WebOS.

Live tiles still do not seem to be as functional on some apps as they claim to be - 1st party apps inclusive. It's on par with iOS notifications in the sense of how delayed it is.

I can still bog down a 1ghz phone rather simply with just a few (I'd say unoptimized) apps rather quickly. The UI remains swift; however it takes longer for apps to load up data - MSN Onit is a prime example. Takes it forever to load data; whereas Pulse on Android is pretty damn swift and they do the same thing.

The browser is the biggest improvement... it truly moves it closer to my like of Dolphin HD or MicroB. Not perfect, still lacking the Adobe Flash that I like (I'm a Flex dev) but it's a noticeable improvement. It's gone from a 1.0 to a 3.8 on a scale of 5.0.

The e-mail client grabs, but doesn't seem to sync IMAP correctly... still. The speed has improved, it's a lot better than Modest; however I've had better. The threaded look is better than before though. There's a ton of improvement needed here.

Music - I'll admit it. I own a 120gb Zune. Still use it, still love it. So my experience there is great, it's improved on speed and transitions (background) don't seem to slow it down. So the improvements there are fine.

Copy and paste... ok this part pisses me off. I can copy but paste only once. WTF. Sometimes I need to paste multiple times. Not being able to is just plain weird. I can understand copy/paste once on raster images and the like. But links? Or text? I dislike that limitation.

It's still a pain to customize, the tiles are different colors for some apps - my OCD kicks in and I like things to be uniform or at least similar.

There are other things, like the planned addition of forward facing cameras, better memory management and some other features that directly address what I'm looking for in a phone. But after having integrated Google Voice on Android - I use GoVoice on WP7 - and having my updates come in on a timely manner, GoVoice and all of the apps seem to delay on notification. It's bothersome. IMAP e-mail is the exception... but it still feels a tad bit delayed versus Google's GMail level of integration, better than Modest - which seemed to sync just fine, but not all of the time.

There's tons of apps that I consider necessary, but missing - Skype for instance. IM+ Pro is what I use and it just... seems SLOW AS HELL. N900 kills the level of IM integration here. Downright kills everybody to be honest.

So yeah... there's some deficiencies in the apps, features, battery life (better than N900). I love the UI, dislike the delays on loading stuff - just feels more sluggish than a 1ghz processor.

Hope that answers your question.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Ok thank you. That doesn't sound all too bad at all imo. No real deal breakers there. Seems easily fixable with some updates. No OS is perfect I don't think.

There multitasking seems more like task switching. The apps are like in stasis. Noone does multitasking like Nokia for sure, so i didn't expect much. The proposed one they have seems functional though. I think they're waiting for feedback, as to how to improve it though, microsoft that is.

I think the argument with the app speed and so on probably has to be a lack of optimization I think. I haven't used it personally (hence i asked) but it's a reasonable assumption. Some go fast, some slow.

For me the lack of a file manager is the worst, I want to be able to use my phone as a portable hard drive at some level. I don't want to put everything on skydrive. I don't like the idea of HAVING to use Zune either. I think that's my worse feelings about it, otherwise the OS seems very decent.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Actually forgot about the lack of a file explorer. I use that heavily in Android. Been using a 3rd part app called Notepad that has a file explorer function, but not management.

It does allow for full file exploration while connected to my Mac, not in Windows.

I actually find the OS okay, just not as polished as iOS, as flexible as Android. And I can't shake the feeling that I am two levels too high to fully control the device. No root access, development provisioning is somewhat cumbersome, dependent on apps to give me the ability to use the device as a hard drive, no secondary browsers that are Gecko or Webkit based (Surf Cube does not count).

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Well iOS had time to get polished eh ;) although i find it severely lacking and i hate itunes waaaaaay more than zune among other things. The UI is the basically the same field of icons, and hasn't changed really. It just has a very disconnected experience for me.

Why might one want root access. What does that accomplish? (sounds like a minority thing) Also why the need for a Gecko or Webkit based browser? Something wrong with Trident? I get a good browsing experience with all of 'em.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Which? iOS or Android? Because iOS is a rather polished, even in version 1.0 in terms of how well they thought it out, how consistent it is. Polished, but restricted.

Metro UI is equally thought out, but a bit inconsistent in a few areas. That takes time to get used to a few UI workflow differences. Not yet optimized, feels like something is missing.

I like to "own" my devices. Plus, I'd like to be able to make true backups of my phone. To do so, I have to root the device. And ultimately, I'd love access to true bits of the phone where I can change the background color, tweak settings, change how it acts.

To do so, you have to have either root, or some app that will do all of that for you. To date, an application to do so does not exist.

See above. I just listed out the few bits I've found out so far. There are other, many other reasons...

To test what I develop and design for the web. Not all sites work the same in all browsers and I'm finding mobile IE9 to be a weird beast. I can test in emulated forms, but it's not always the same.

Good, yes. But can you compare on the same device? No. Trident means I'm back to developing for three types of browser DOM whereas it was two.

My complaints are minor. I say it's not ready for primetime. Said the same thing about Android 1.5 and 1.6. Said the same thing about Honeycomb 3.0. Saying the same thing about WP7 at this moment. Definitely said the same thing about Maemo 5.

Oh, the Twitter app is painfully slow.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

There are rumours that, due to all the patent issues with Android, LG, ZTE and Huawei are considering using MeeGo.

Wouldn't it be ironic if NOKIA ended up getting spanked by its own abandoned OS?

BTW I think Elop is a trojan horse, it's very hard to rationalise his decisions from any other perspective.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Incidentally, Nokia more or less acknowledge it. I hope the "MeeGo" one is ready enough.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

I dont think switching to Meego would help in case of "patent issues" in case of Android biggest patent issue is SUN(woops Oracle) and Java but they will soon get a deal.

In case of Microsoft patents or Apple. Meego will probadly has same issues....

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

I hope youre right but I think youre wrong :-/ 75 million EUR in marketing....

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Gerbick, you misunderstood me. I meant although iOS is polished, the experience is disconnected cuz I have to jump form app to app as there was no integration, and multitasking/task switching came later down. Android is a bit better.

Ah, i understand what you mean about truly owning your device. That's fair enough I think. Not necesary for me though, cuz like i own many devices which i don't quite 'own' like game consoles and the sorts.

Mobile ie9 is weird? I didn't expect that...doesn't it comply to all the standards in the same way. So you still have to do ie hacks? bummer. Although as a web developer I think you SHOULD be accustomed to IE stuff by now, at least now it should be WAY better right?

Hmm i'm glad your gripes aren't too major. I've been browsing the forums and generally everyone agrees that wp7 is like utter garbage, but not much reason as to why it is. I intended to buy one, but the negativity is discouraging. I actually WANT it to succeed, cuz i want Nokia to succeed and I love Nokia.

I still don't get though why Nokia can't continue with meego development as that is SOFTWARE....there focus only needs to be for hardware where wp7 is concerned. It's quite weird. Do both in parallel.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

WP7's multitasking reminds me more of S^3 than webOS, but your points are pretty vaild. At least, from the perspective of a poweruser; I certainly don't think I myself would have as many issues (although lack of IM integration is incredibly frustrating after using an N900, and was the main reason for dumping my E7) and the general consumer public even less.

The main reason I think WP7 will succeed is because MS will make it succeed. Fact is, companies like RIM & Nokia have no hope of creating new ecosystems around QNX, MeeGo, etc. when massive capitalist juggernauts like MS can steamroller through with their infinite money and force a good outcome for themselves. Naturally they couldn't do that if their product was just absolutely terrible, but it's not. And with the stylistic similarities between it & Windows 8 (which you already know will sell in very large volumes) WP7 is positioned for a big 2012.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

symbian3 have better multitask that wp7 mango.


both show screenshots of the apps, but wp7 can only have 6 apps open and u can't close them from visual task manager.
in symbian u can, u can get more than 20 apps running

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Wait a second, Mango brings IM integration through Live messenger and facebook chat into the message system. I think there'll be twitter and linked in integration at some level. I inquired if there would be Google Chat support as well, but all my questions about it were largely ignored, which means probably not. Doesn't matter though, Facebook is like the juggernaut of IM now, everyone seems to always be on :/ Noone really uses Google chat here. All my friends have hotmail addressees hahaha. See what happens when you come first :)

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

I got what you meant. I'm talking about workflow connectivity and honestly... it's lacking. UI/UX is easily one place I tend to concentrate upon and it's rather "chunky" in how you have to go from one app to another.

It's much better, but it's less IE6 hacks, more "let's avoid absolute positioning and CSS3" type of hacks.

Most folks that deeply dislike WP7 in these parts have never touched it. I tend to ignore folks like that.

I'm on the fence about whether or not I want it to succeed. I'd rather it would, I actually like the workflow. But I'm a yank... so that means I have an XBOX 360, I have used a Zune for quite some time.

And since I opened up my big mouth, I'll have to purchase a Nokia WP7 device - thought they'd never combine. Was wrong there.

We're all trying to wrap our collective heads around that.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

may i redirect you to two posts of mine regarding the experience with wp7?
http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...1&postcount=16
http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...5&postcount=25

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

You have to give Elop 3 years before you judge him. He inherited a company in disarray, sort of like Obama cleaning up after Bush. And just like a Tea Party fundamentalists are trying to undo Obama efforts, there will be NOKIA dead wood obstructing and criticizing Elop plans.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Yeah, fighting bureaucracy with ignorance is always a good plan.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

If you genuinely have some information that suggests MeeGo would be effected please share it with us.

groklaw has repeatedly warned that M$ are trying to use Novell to seed patented code into GNU/Linux but I was under the impression that was just about Mono which is easily removed.

M$ do like to make noises about GNU/Linux breaching their patents but whenever Mark Shuttleworth challenges them to say which ones there's never a response.

I seriously doubt M$ have anything significant on GNU/Linux or else we would have seen it used against Canonical.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Mono isn't the culprit, it's mostly around virtualization.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

? Another NOKIA dead wood

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

What would you do if this current Elop inspired plan fails? How long do you think it will take for it to be considered a "success" and if not a success, then would you be willing to state that you were wrong?

Answering with the bravado "I won't be wrong" is not an option, we don't know what tomorrow holds. Just wonder if you have thought it through as a possible failure.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

As I said above, judge him after 3 years. Every change brings anxiety, and pessimism.

Where did I write "I wont be wrong"?

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

You haven't. Was wanting to avoid that as an answer to get a real answer as you had graciously provided. Thanks.

Three years though?

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

a better chronology would be "judge him once the first wave of devices have been given a legitimate chance in the marketplace"

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Not sure i see the issue with question 1, as i think the carriers are primarily a issue in USA. If we let carriers dictate, thing are heading for "acoustic couplers" very quickly...

I think the main problem is that the tech news sphere is overly focusing on what is happening in USA, and so everyone thing they need to get a US foothold to have success.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Three years is reasonable. He has a plan. Let him execute it.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Another impotent, ineffectual, non-doer?

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Too imprecise. A "legitimate chance" can mean anything and nothing. 3 years on the other hand, is a precise measure that makes sense.

Actually I think that too is off target. The point is that Elop has done and is doing seriously drastic measures. A complete tear down, and a re-build of Nokia smartphones. This is done and Nokia is still making money on the "old" technology. He obviously is being very successful in what he is doing, at the moment (things may get much worse though, but worse is better than dead in any case). If WP-NOKIA becomes a success depends on how they measure success. 20% market share in 3 years may bee a success, 5% may be on the low side, who knows? but Nokia going back to its former glory wrt smartphones is an unreasonable goal. WP may climb up to 40%, but Samsung and Nokia will split equally the greater 80% or so of that.

S40 is also becoming smarter. It may not be viewed as a smartphone, but will have all the capabilities from a user point of view (apps and a vast ecosystem). And there is Harmattan. No matter how you look at the N9, it is a wild card. Out of the box it is probably the most complete experience ever in a smartphone, Apps are sparse compared with all competitors, but the capabilities are larger than all of the competitors put together.

Symbian is still extremely capable, but Nokia is crippling it with stupid hardware options (E7, edof, small batteries, poor res screens and so on) and poor software. Even though I like my E6, edof is a real PITA,and the default browser and e-mail is not good enough. To be more precise: EDoF is excellent in everything but macro, but I really want macro, so EDoF is the wrong technology (EDoF with macro would be perfect). Symbian (Anna) itself is really a pleasure to use. But the Symbian phone package has been so crippled by insane Nokia decisions (in which Elop had no say) it is hard too see how it ever will be competitive again.

No plan B if WP fails. This is probably true, but when looking closer at it, it only means no plan B for WP-Nokia if they should fail. A failure will kill Nokias short term plans for a high end ecosystem. Nokia still have two other options though; S40 and Harmattan, and they could always make a couple of Androids. So there is no plan B, but plan C and D and F exist.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

Makes zero sense to not have a Plan B as they've pitched it thus far, especially for a company that hits multiple price points in multiple regions. WP7 doesn't hit all of those price points nor territories.

Of course you don't see the problem - therein lies the biggest problem. No solution for their cheaper phones once phased out. No solution for areas that don't have the Zune marketplace quite yet - necessary for WP7.

Surprisingly though, there's a N5 coming, Symbian based - remember when the N8 was to be the last N-series Symbian phone? - and other Symbian phones in the meantime. They can deliver those now.

This waiting game on the N9 and the Nokia WP7 phones means that Nokia loses more share per day. Once it gets low enough, they'll not be able to sell enough to dig themselves out of a hole, be it 3 years, 5 years or one blockbuster iteration of their WP7 phones (not likely).

I don't think much thought has been put into this plan. Nokia doesn't have time on their hands. Nor will they have all of the pieces to salvage their prior position in place in the next few years.

It will be interesting to watch what happens. So far, it's all speculation.

There should never be a Plan A, or Plan B. There just needs to be a damn good plan and that's missing from what we, mere mortals know.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

I'd like to object to the title "Sir" being used in some people's names! :) Ooo... deja vu!

Is three years a magic number or is there some sort of sense to it? Seems like you picked an arbitrary number and method upon which to judge bad decisions. Do you mind elaborating on how your magic method works? Here I thought that the intended outcome of locking Nokia's lips to Microsoft's anus was both unsanitary as well as repulsive--I'm pretty sure I don't have to wait three years to make that call.

You'll notice that Microsoft STILL hasn't won any such patent cases even against HTC regarding Android, nevermind Linux and kernel. Microsoft often likes to strike up the war drums and litigate about patents and that sometimes leads to licensing settlements whether they're authentic or not.

I think the point he was trying to make is that if MeeGo ever does get popular enough, even THOSE handset makers would be similarly threatened.

Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 

I guess zune will be replaced with nokia's own service on nokia phones.

Well symbian has been killed now. It still eludes me how they could abandon the reasonable strategy to bridge symbian and meego with Qt. Developers could start making apps for meego and continuing improving the ones for symbian. I mean they worked for years on this and stopped before the finish line, how stupid.