maemo.org - Talk - Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms

Can someone point them to that it would be helpful to collect all those spread-over-half-the-interwebs tidbits into a Q&A/FAQ at their website? :rolleyes:

shmerl

2013-07-14 19:34

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms

Sure, they should really publish this kind of stuff on their main Wiki.

marbleuser

2013-07-15 00:49

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms

does this mean we won't be able to run easy debian apps as if they were native apps like we can currently do on the n900? will we have to run some seperate VNC environment like android?

shmerl

2013-07-15 01:05

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms

Many Debian applications should support Wayland as well, so why not. But they'll catch up later I think. Right now Wayland didn't get traction on the desktop, because vendors like Nvidia didn't release needed drives and big DEs like KDE are still in the process of enabling Wayland support.

marbleuser

2013-07-15 01:40

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms

what a crock. they're basically relying on android apps then. existing qt4/x11 apps won't work.

soryuuha

2013-07-15 02:25

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms

Quote:

Originally Posted by jalyst (Post 1358946)

https://twitter.com/JollaHQ/status/356349925543526401

for technical peeps, yet to see how yet..

marbleuser

2013-07-15 02:51

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms

Quote:

Originally Posted by don_falcone (Post 1358794)

...i wonder what impact for application compatibility it has, and therefore on leveraging abilities for filling application catalogs from existing codebases.

it kills it stone dead.

marbleuser

2013-07-15 03:00

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms

Quote:

Originally Posted by don_falcone (Post 1358948)

Can someone point them to that it would be helpful to collect all those spread-over-half-the-interwebs tidbits into a Q&A/FAQ at their website? :rolleyes:

that's what i thought until i saw that they're using qt5/wayland and dropping support for qt4/x11 apps. and suddenly i didn't care anymore. i'll wait for about a year after it's launch before i seriously look at it now, rather than collecting tweets about how they've u-turned on stuff they promised. bait and switch. no thanks.

shmerl

2013-07-15 03:02

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms

They said they consider Xwayland support - feel free to contribute to that cause, if you have some Qt 4 / Xorg applications you really need.

marbleuser

2013-07-15 03:17

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms

Quote:

Originally Posted by shmerl (Post 1359022)

They said they consider Xwayland support - feel free to contribute to that cause, if you have some Qt 4 / Xorg applications you really need.

I've got those apps already, on my n900 via easy debian, why would i want to become an unpaid employee of jolla? i only contribute to causes i believe in. no x11=android. might as well go the whole hog and get a samsung.

shmerl

2013-07-15 03:58

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms

It's up to you what to use. Jolla does what's really important for Sailfish. And supporting Easy Debian shouldn't be on their priority list.

don_falcone

2013-07-15 06:26

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms

Quote:

Originally Posted by shmerl (Post 1359022)

They said they consider Xwayland support - feel free to contribute to that cause, if you have some Qt 4 / Xorg applications you really need.

Huh? Aren't they a registered, commercial entity running for certain marketshare in Eastern Asia, unlike organizations f.e. like OpenMoko? I hope with contributing, you mean lobbying - not providing dev effort. People (should) expect & pay for certain support OOTB; it's definitely not a community-sourced & supported phone, but a commercial runner.

Otherwise, if you mean dev effort; don't get why (probably mostly) end-users should pamper them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by marbleuser (Post 1359021)

...
i'll wait for about a year after it's launch before i seriously look at it now, rather than collecting tweets about how they've u-turned on stuff they promised. bait and switch. no thanks.

...my thoughts, albeit for other reasons too.

jalyst

2013-07-15 07:04

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms

Quote:

Originally Posted by marbleuser (Post 1359025)

no x11=android. might as well go the whole hog and get a samsung.

It's not as "black & white" as you're painting it to be in your last several posts.
Try reading the page just before you started spewing bile...

Here's a little snapshot of presumptuous assertions you've made before, only to be proven wrong shortly thereafter:
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...45#post1287345
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...49#post1353649
It seems you've got somewhat of a problem with "shooting from the hip"...

Quote:

Originally Posted by don_falcone (Post 1359038)

Huh? Aren't they a registered, commercial entity running for certain marketshare in Eastern Asia, unlike organizations f.e. like OpenMoko? I hope with contributing, you mean lobbying - not providing dev effort. People (should) expect & pay for certain support OOTB; it's definitely not a community-sourced & supported phone, but a commercial runner. Otherwise, if you mean dev effort; don't get why (probably mostly) end-users should pamper them.

Rinse, repeat.... ;)
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...15#post1358915

shmerl

2013-07-15 15:57

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms

Quote:

Originally Posted by don_falcone (Post 1359038)

No, they are non commercial open source project (Mer). That's where support for Wayland is coming from to Sailfish (besides the drivers of course). Therefore any XWayland integration would have to be added to Mer which is open for participation. So to put is shortly - if you need it, add it.

Jolla does contribute to Mer of course. Focusing on those parts which are needed for their product. But as I said, Mer is open for participation. It's not Jolla's commercial field. I guess if Jolla will be convinced that there is a big demand for XWayland, they'll add it to Mer themselves.

mikecomputing

2013-07-15 16:30

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms

Quote:

Originally Posted by jalyst (Post 1358915)

Jolla's focus is to ensure it's as easy as possible to port apps from Freemantle/Harmattan/Elsewhere to Sailfish* via Qt5/HTML5/AlienDalvik, no more & no less.

It's up to Freemantle/Harmattan devs to decide whether or not to support their N9xx users by back-porting...
OR by getting Qt5 working nicely in Freemantle/Harmattan (if doable?) & maintaining their apps (tweaked for each UX) via it for Freemantle/Harmattan/Sailfish.

*even port many non-core/3rd-party apps themselves (they also need to focus on sourcing content, not just apps)

better use those resources making nemomobile fully working in that case. Try port qt5 + wayland to harmattan/frema is deadend...

mikecomputing

2013-07-15 16:33

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms

Quote:

Originally Posted by marbleuser (Post 1359025)

since when did android run x11 :eek:

pycage

2013-07-15 17:09

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikecomputing (Post 1359145)

since when did android run x11 :eek:

(no x11)=android

I guess the equation is clearer now. :D

mikecomputing

2013-07-15 18:23

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms

Quote:

Originally Posted by marbleuser (Post 1359009)

what a crock. they're basically relying on android apps then. existing qt4/x11 apps won't work.

porting apps from Qt4 -> 5 is probadly not a big issue... Second can someone confirm it is not possible run Qt4.8 in wayland?

Third people would complain like CRAZY if they don't move to Qt5 now people complain about they going future route instead of backward....

This is ****ing NUTS!

Dave999

2013-07-15 18:31

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms

The World is nuts. Time for you to learn that. I don't see so anyone complaining. In fact I think this thread finally has become valid and like reading the discussion. Since it's not clear what is what it's always nice to know, even if it nuts stuff. To me Qt4 or Qt5 doesn't matter. But I am a bit concerned about PyQt and Pyside.

qwazix

2013-07-15 19:35

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms

Quote:

Originally Posted by marbleuser (Post 1359025)

yeah so fedora 22 will be android...

https://ask.fedoraproject.org/questi...ch-to-wayland/

MartinK

2013-07-15 19:50

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms

Quote:

Originally Posted by qwazix (Post 1359193)

yeah so fedora 22 will be android...

https://ask.fedoraproject.org/questi...ch-to-wayland/

Yeah, Fedora 19 is awfully stable, stuff like systemd, Anaconda UI rewrite & usr move, once heated topics, are now just normal working parts of the distribution. Time to do something about that. :)

Another things to watch for in the next few Fedoras - switch to Python 3 by default and possibly the yum->dnf switch. And now back to to topic. :)

marbleuser

2013-07-15 20:35

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms

dropping X means jolla has a large time horizon, far longer than 2 years. 2 years is a long time in the mobile world.

if they add support for xwayland, then all might be forgiven.

the fact that they're dropping X support so completely has me slightly curious. e.g. is it for 'commercial' reasons.

EDIT: NO X11=Android

mrsellout

2013-07-15 22:00

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms

Quote:

Originally Posted by marbleuser (Post 1359211)

the fact that they're dropping X support so completely has me slightly curious. e.g. is it for 'commercial' reasons.

I assume it's time constraints; they want to ship in 5-6 months. The tweets didn't rule out xwayland in the future (highlighting the possibility of community contributions). If they meet their goals and get Sailfish PR1.0 in a decent enough condition quick enough, maybe they themselves could then move down the todo list and start on the extras like xwayland.

Personally I have no problem with them asking help from the community for things like this, it's worth remembering maemo/Meego/Jolla developers have historically been good Open Source citizens, providing huge contributions to Linux (whilst at Nokia, eg. [1][2]), and using Wayland is a major contribution in itself. So they should have no shame in asking for community contributions, they've made plenty back.

marbleuser

2013-07-15 22:22

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrsellout (Post 1359226)

it's worth remembering maemo/Meego/Jolla developers have historically been good Open Source citizens, providing huge contributions to Linux (whilst at Nokia, eg. [1][2]), and using Wayland is a major contribution in itself. So they should have no shame in asking for community contributions, they've made plenty back.

maybe that's my problem. i've been spoiled by the n900. but the lack of backward compatibility with 90% of existing linux applications (which otherwise could be made to run easily) isn't a step forward in my opinion, it's a step back from the n900.

i'm also quite annoyed by their twitter centric / word of mouth way of communicating things. i have to find things out from other people in forum posts.

A few days ago i told someone i was going to buy a jolla as soon as it came out. then i found out almost accidently it doesn't support X (and all that entails), so i've had to tell the person that's no longer the case. i'm going to have to wait a year to see how things pan out. my n900 has survived yet another attempt to find something better. even when that was being provided by the same people that gave me my n900.

jalyst

2013-07-16 01:59

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms

Quote:

Originally Posted by qwazix (Post 1359193)

yeah so fedora 22 will be android...

https://ask.fedoraproject.org/questi...ch-to-wayland/

And pretty-much every other major DE/distro within the next 10mth according to his logic.

marbleuser

2013-07-16 02:16

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms

Quote:

Originally Posted by jalyst (Post 1359261)

And pretty-much every other major DE/distro within the next 10mth according to his logic.

I don't know if you read all of that, as it clearly states they're keeping X11 for backward compatibility. They're not stupid. Just keep in mind the gnome fiasco (everybody including Linus himself just switched to XFCE/LXDE), linux people tend to vote with their feet. but you're welcome to whistle past the graveyard.

it's just an android capable phone for china consumers who want something different. incapable of running most existing gtk/qt/x11 apps except in some vnc type environment a la android.

i (honestly) wish them well, but i've no intention of being an early adopter on this one. i'll let people like you buy it first and do the lobbying/development and then see what it looks like in a year compared to whatever other phones are out then. you seem keen, so go for it!

jalyst

2013-07-16 02:35

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms

Quote:

Originally Posted by marbleuser (Post 1359266)

it's just an android capable phone for china consumers who want something different. incapable of running most existing gtk/qt/x11 apps except in some vnc type environment a la android.

There you go shooting from the hip again, this is going to be a fun ride.
Anyway, can we please get this thread back to it's intended purpose.
Summarise your concerns/criticisms or ideas/qns, if you have ones that aren't already in the docs.
Editors will then put them in the docs & (ideally) clean-up the docs wherever there's fluff etc.
There are other general discussion threads...

Lumiaman

2013-07-16 02:41

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms

Hmmmm...the biggest criticism of Jolla...GET OFF YOUR TWITTER AND START MARKETING BETTER:

http://www.google.com/trends/explore...%201020&cmpt=q

Lumiaman

2013-07-16 02:45

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms

The interest thing is that the only interest is in Finland and good old USA

marbleuser

2013-07-16 23:58

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms

in case anyone's still interested, i found this rationale for wayland on jolla on WIKIPEDIA.

Carsten Munk, Jolla's Chief Research Engineer and one of key persons in Mer project, has made it possible to run Wayland (display server protocol) atop Android GPU drivers. It's being done with glibc rather than Android's Bionic libc derivative. The solution is to enable the use of Wayland on top of Android hardware, particularly with its GPU drivers. However, as part of it, for the operating system to not depend upon Google's Bionic libc library. In April 2013 the code is at a stage of being able to handle a QML compositor on top of Wayland while rendering to Qualcomm's GPU Android drivers. The motive for engaging this work is that most device manufacturers are only willing to work with Google's Android and not supply drivers for X11 or Wayland or other platforms.

soryuuha

2013-07-17 00:11

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms

Quote:

Originally Posted by marbleuser (Post 1359496)

The motive for engaging this work is that most device manufacturers are only willing to work with Google's Android and not supply drivers for X11 or Wayland or other platforms.[/B]

this sucks if this is true

shmerl

2013-07-17 02:14

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms

I hope in their hardware at least Jolla won't use bionic with libhybris translation for glibc, but will use native glibc drivers for Wayland. Otherwise it'll be really sad. All this Android only GPUs are really getting annoying.

That said, having libhybris can be helpful to port Sailfish to Android only hardware.

jalyst

2013-07-17 02:36

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms

Quote:

Originally Posted by marbleuser (Post 1359496)

Yes, this is well-known for some time now, it's not so much a rationale for Wayland as it is a rationale for libhybris.

By the way, general discussion thread here:
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=90142&page=77
"Other Half" ideas thread here:
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=90180&page=16
Applications you'd like to see on Sailfish here:
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=90245&page=29
Pre-order shipments (i.e. t-shirt etc) here:
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=90567&page=21

qwazix

2013-07-17 04:55

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms

Quote:

Originally Posted by marbleuser (Post 1359266)

This is all unfounded. When did linux had backward compatibility? It's not windows. Try installing a deb from the 770 on the N9 and see if it installs.

GTK+ supports wayland. Qt supports wayland. Probably other toolkits too. But most of the desktop linux apps use those two toolkits. I was also pretty disappointed when I first heard of the move to wayland (way before jolla) because I didn't know many things. But I read a bit about it, and saw this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?nomobile=1&v=RIctzAQOe44 and I now think the change is pretty exciting.

One thing I am sure about is that wayland has nothing to do with android It's where the linux desktop goes. Jolla are simply early birds..

anzx	2013-07-17 08:23

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms

What Jolla should do, is to take MeeGo Harmattan instead of Sailfish, and optimize it for dual core processor and start adding more features to the OS, just upgrading it, and leave the design like it is... in 2 years this would be an IOS killer, then I would be the first who would buy jolla phone, now I will wait and use my N9 untill it dies.

jalyst

2013-07-17 08:46

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms

Quote:

Originally Posted by anzx (Post 1359530)

That is not a option, much of Harmattan is Nokia's proprietary sw, even if they were able to convince Nokia to license it*, Harmattan's far more closed than MeeGo ever was.
That makes it virtually impossible to make lots of sweeping changes & fixes (which Harmattan sorely needs), nah, overall that would be a silly idea/approach.
Again, general chit-chat thread here, please leave this thread for it's intended purpose...
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=90142&page=77

Thanks
*which would never happen anyway

shmerl

2013-07-17 16:10

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms

jalyst: You mentioned, that you saw some comments from Jolla that they aren't going to open source some core applications from Sailfish. It's a major concern I think, since before their general feeling was to make the whole thing open (except 3rd party bits like Android emulator and etc.). Did you find those references? It's probably worth it to discuss with Jolla devs. I really won't like it, if their e-mail client won't be open source for example.

jalyst

2013-07-17 16:16

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms

TBH, I CBF'd trying to find it, maybe try asking them directly via Twitter/elsewhere?
I'd be delighted if I was wrong, but I'm pretty sure I'm not, at least based on what they've said quite a few times before.

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