Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

It was inevitable that this would happen. For Maemo to propagate and compete with Android and Apple, which both have DRM built in, than it would eventually have to adopt DRM too. It won't get support from content providers without it, and cell providers are insistent on having control of the devices on their network. At least Nokia is being pragmatic about it and offering an unsigned mode for the phone operate in. And I hate the term "trusted computing", it's like calling the IRS my personal financial advisor.

Also DRM is usually based in software, so it's adoption shouldn't prevent moving the n900 to Maemo6.

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

Just looked at the slides pointed at to from the original post it appears the DRM aspect is indeed "optional".

Generally should not be an issue if you buy the device directly from Nokia.

The question is if you decide to use an open source version of the kernel you will not be able to use any software that signs itself to the security framework.

Worst case scenario would be something like the phone/modem is proprietary and is "security-enabled". Would this mean you may not be able to access it via an open source kernel?

I don't expect Nokia would lock-out something essential like this but it does raise a few questions.

I suppose all we can do is wait and see what Maemo 6 brings.

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

If the security framework is open sourced and available to non-Nokia signed kernels, Mer would probably have it too. Heck, I wouldn't mind it on my PC.

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

From the wiki page again..

Q: Cellular is marked as a protected ressource in the slide. Can one still use it (phone, data, sms etc.) while running in open mode? While runnin a rebuilt kernel?

A: If you use your own kernel, you are the one to set the security policy for the device, meaning that your SW in this case can make calls, send sms and so on (for example). Please note that the list of protected resources on the slide is given just as example (to show the possible granularity level), so it doesn't mean that we would have exactly these resources.

Or better, contact Elena again. Communication, u know? :)

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

The Mawemo 6 security framework has been discussed at length at http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=32672 - please continue there that discussion.

We'll merge all the "Maemo 6 in the N900" threads to this one since currently there is a lot of duplicated discussions.

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

I have no problem with the DRM. Well, actually I do, I would never buy DRMed content, but I understand the need for it - it's hard to convince content publishers that DRM is from a practical point of view pure BS - the ones that care not to pay (pirates and pirated content consumers) will still get that content one way or the other, while the legit paying customers will be treated as criminals upfront and will have a big inconvenience in consuming their rightfully owned/licensed content (it actually makes legit customers to turn to pirates from time to time when they cannot get the content they paid in a way they want). So, since most (luckily not all) content providers go haywire when they hear `the platform is fully open and supports no DRM of any kind`, one has to cater to their needs if they are to come to their platform. Yes, it's stupid, all the things I said still stand, but do you really think that some manager that decides about those things from some major content provider even knows the problems with DRM or how it works? No, he has instilled mantra `no glove (DRM), no love`, and in today's market if you want to draw people to your platform you need to have plenty of content available on it. That's just the way it is.

What I have a problem with is the way it is to be implemented, judging from that wiki page - you need to use a different kernel for `opened` and for `closed` mode. That's even more of an inconvenience than the DRM itself. There are plenty of ways to implement DRM (at the expense of CPU/memory, tho) without killing the openness. After all, typical DRM implementations work on widely opened and documented types of encryption - it's the keys that are kept as secret. What I'd propose is to move the DRM support from the kernel into additional software layer (or at least a kernel module that can be loaded/unloaded run-time), just the way it is on today's computers. There are plenty of ways to do that, from encrypted partitions/folders, to real-time checking with DRM servers (after all, it's meant to be `always connected`), to hardware implementations. All of which wouldn't require you to boot into a different kind of system whenever you want to consume DRM content, and would allow you to enjoy the openness and the DRM content at the same time.

I hope that the people that decide about that have thought long and hard about the implications and inconveniences that could come from dual-kernel system as a DRM implementation. I'm not sure that they could even do that given the GPLv2 on the linux kernel.

edit: Sorry, qgil, just saw your post. If I have something more to say about the security implementation I'll take it there.

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

we want maemo6 on nokia n900,
we want maemo6 on nokia n900,
we want maemo6 on nokia n900,we want maemo6 on nokia n900
we want maemo6 on nokia n900, we want maemo6 on nokia n900

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

i want maemo 6 os better to have a compete maemo os than incomplete one

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

After further consideration, I would say that maemo 6 not being on the n900 would be a bad thing only if:

1. maemo 6 apps can not be run on maemo 5. Since both will be using QT this seems unlikely. Also, the term 'Backports' comes to mind.

2. Nokia decides to focus on developing maemo 6 rather than giving us our portrait mode, better virtual keyboard. etc. Given Nokia's treatment of Symbian, Hanlon's razor may apply here.

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

Am I the only one who doesn't care about portrait mode at all?

In fact, am I the only one who is annoyed that the phone app switches the phone to portrait mode if the keyboard isn't out?

I guess I don't understand, because frankly I think everything should be in landscape mode. Maybe I have big hands but I have no trouble operating it with one hand...

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

This is probably OT but you do not understand. What then if it had ALSO portrait mode? Should you care? I would care even thought I can live without portrait mode, just because it´s must have option for some people and nice to have for quite many so more customers for this device and probably more developers for applications and that makes me happy.

Have to admit that sometimes I would like to use my phone with one hand on go, but right now its quite hard.

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

The merging of the threads has confused me a bit...

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

I've had mine for a couple weeks now, and almost daily I come across a situation where I wish I could bang out a quick sms with one hand, mostly because I am carrying something in the other. Also my phone app only goes into portrait mode when the device is turned on it's side. There is an option for that in the phone's pulldown menu.

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

Ah, man... thanks! :) Didn't know about that menu option.

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

Maemo 6 will most likely be released for the N900 for various reasons. As already pointed out multi touch is a non issue, if you can't design an OS which doesn't fail as soon as a new input method arrives "you're doing something wrong".

If we entertain the thought that the N900 has been doing pretty well for being an N series device ( which judging by the activity on the boards and numerous rumors, it has ), then from a business pov it wouldn't make sense to leave the N900 behind unless the next device is very far of. It would be a disaster from a PR pov for a OS whose whole point is leveraging the open source community since their developer workforce by and large is also their market.

For me personally, I won't upgrade to a new phone in a very very long time for various reasons. The largest being that I believe the N900 will be the last device which has the hardware setup I want ( physical keyboard and resistive screen, multi touch is **** and I want the precision of the stylus ).

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

http://maemo.org/community/brainstor...rn_navigation/

in development. Milestone: Harmattan

One more nail in N900's coffin. :(

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

<complain>

Only thing I don't get here is the Sygic move, I know it's a different company than Nokia, but how come we have to pay money for Sygic just because we are on the Maemo platform while the Symbian fellas can enjoy free navigation right now.. :S

</complain>

Anyways, I am too hoping that Maemo 6 will be available for the N900..

So the Maemo 6 Alpha SDK is going to be released when exactly? Q1 2010?

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

If you're only searching nails, I've got a big one for you: Email: Keep Sent and Drafts on IMAP server

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

Why do I have to pay for Windows when the Linux people enjoy a free OS? Forget Sygic - if you like the software and think it's better than Ovi maps, then buy it (when it comes out). The presence (or absence) of Sygic has no effect on whether Nokia will produce free navigation for the N900.

My suspicion is that, when development of Ovi Maps for m6 is complete, they'll make a decision on making it available for m5. Until that point they don't know whether it'll work, or even whether it's worth it (if m6 is out shortly afterwards, and will be available for the N900, why bother).

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

That is a really a big one. :(

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

I think it's a little unfair. From my understanding, the move to make latest Maps free on Symbian is a licensing issue - the software was already built and there so it was matter of making it "free". It is not built or available on Maemo, and would therefore require resources to make it in the first place before it can be provided along with the handset.

I do have my suspicions, however, if it were available to be released today would Nokia hold it back to allow Sygic "first shot" so to speak.

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

as long as we get backwords compatibility with applications i figure most people can live that.

hopefully with qt 4.6 running on the n900 it'll ensure that most apps can run on both.

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

sometime.. it's very hard to realize.. you been cheated by the biggest mobile phone company you ve been loyal for ages!! ******** ovi maps.. front cam doesnt work.. dissapointed

Re: Will N900 be ignored by Nokia?
 

DONE! Got a Droid. Thanks for the tip but I think, as someone else put it, it's also a matter of feeling like your brand loyalty in Nokia has been stomped on. I'm primarily talking about the lack of customer service, lack of loyalty programs and the feeling that your loyalty buys nothing at all, despite the costs.

Honestly, Nokia doesn't NEED to do anything special nor does it even have to provide any real form of customer service. But then, by the same reasoning, I don't feel that I should remain loyal to the brand that isn't loyal to their customers. Bam! Done. I'm hanging on to my N800 until it either dies or I sell it to someone who doesn't mind dealing with Nokia. I, for one, have had a much better experience of walking into my local Verizon store to actually get surprisingly excellent service with my Droid, so far. I can't say that I've ever had anything nearly as positive to report with my N800 (which I ended up having to re-purchase since Nokia, no anyone else, would sell me the parts I needed to fix it).

You're absolutely right, though, and you're providing the best reason for many of us, who aren't N900 or Nokia, to go out and have a more pragmatic look at the competition and how it might fit our needs better, or else come back and buy that N900.

I'm not sure I understand why anyone should complain that the price is higher. Personally, I'm much more thankful that it's available at all and I would feel justified to pay the higher price for something that was ported over so well. There's FREE.. and then there's CHEAP. They're not necessarily the same. Ovi Maps is both. It would be worse if it wasn't free. Sygic is, thankfully, neither--even though it would be nice if it were inexpensive or free--but I'll take not being CHEAP over free any day.

Re: Will N900 be ignored by Nokia?
 

Here's the problem, though, the competition sucks. Nobody's as open, nobody offers the same experience. Android is a joke, iPhone OS is a joke, and WebOS is an even worse one. There. Is. No. Substitute.

This is why Nokia's behavior is so frustrating. I want with all of my heart to love the product and this platform, but they pretty consistently do everything in their power to punish that.

Re: Will N900 be ignored by Nokia?
 

Sadly, I fully agree.

I think I've been pretty consistent on the point that the increasing openness and the operating system are not disappointing to me. (Although I've begun to question whether the openness is truly Nokia's doing--but that's probably my cynicism at this point.)

I even considered that the N900 MIGHT be a worthwhile device for me to purchase... but in the intervening time (from full announcements, specs and pictures... to the moment it was actually being shipped and available for purchase) I had to do some real thinking and, ultimately, had to remind myself about all the frustrations I've had to deal with whenever I had a problem with Nokia hardware.

Maemo has been like a dangling carrot--it's delicious, it's right there in front of you but it's ALWAYS just right there in front of you.. that promise of EXACTLY what you want as a consumer. GREAT device with an excellent operating system and openness... but the true appreciation of that carrot is AAALWAYS just out of reach with customer service issues (parts? stylus!? ... SOMETHING??) and the appearance of an uncaring attitude toward customers.

Open source is a good move--but as a hardware manufacturer, openness all by itself doesn't make a piece of hardware valuable--it simply makes it MORE valuable than not valuable at all. But if you treat your customers badly, "more valuable" is still falling short of being "valuable" and you'll have lost customers which will be MUCH harder to win back.

I could argue that the N900 misses the mark as the device *I* want.. but even if I wanted to try it out and reconsider, I can't because of the consistently appalling customer service history I've had after purchasing MULTIPLE Nokia products. After a while, you begin to learn what to expect from Nokia and you begin to look elsewhere.

Re: Will N900 be ignored by Nokia?
 

From my personal opinion, the open sourced Symbian^4 could become close enough for me. It would need a better interface, an improved way of delivering apps, and to run on OMAP3 hardware, among other things, but wouldn't be so... "imprisoning" as other platforms..

About customer service, around here in this part of the world it does not exist regardless the brand (and there is no Android, WebOS here either), so when something breaks we are used to fix it ourselves, like I did with my N800 screen.

As an anecdote, just a week ago a friend took a PC main board to be repaired in a "street shop", he didn't have money for a new one, but for the equivalent of $3, a guy cannibalized components from older main boards and fixed it in less than 25 minutes.

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

And when exactly Nokia promised any of this for the N900? If you need someone to blame, blame yourself for buying a product with no research of its shortcomings.

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

I know this is a bit offtopic, but come on, please stop this "do your research" propaganda against any complaints heard about missing basic functionality in the n900.

A research should be made, I agree, but also should not be overestimated. It cannot, by all means, cover EVERY aspect and feature the device might of might not have.
If the device have front camera but no video calls - that's a yet-to-be implemented functionality rather than "no video calls".
If the device has (a)GPS but no good turn-by-turn navigation software, this again should be implemented sooner or later, rather than be treated by the "hey, do your research before you buy" approach.

I should not digg the 'maemo talk' forums just to figure if the n900 has unique ringtons for every caller - I expect Nokia to provide it as it did for me for the last 10 years I buy its product: out of the box (same goes for MMS). No research should be SO comprehensive, as the research's Value Of Information must be taken in account when the research is done.

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

Hah I don't pay for Windows.. Sorry. And no I don't get it pirated.. And also you can switch to linux or to windows.. Because it's by choice and it's not like you're forced to use Windows.. In this case we're kind of getting forced to go with Sygic (I won't.. but I am still not gonna have Turn By Turn Voice Navigation because of that).. So your example cannot relate to what I am saying.

And really you think I am actually dumb by thinking that I thought that Sygic has an effect on Ovi maps or on Nokia? If osmething that should have an effect on another is Nokia having an effect on Sygic and other Navigation softwares.. Btw that's why I stated I know that Sygic has nothing to do with Nokia in post (two different companies).. So please before you share your input try to read and understand the posts. Thank you.

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

It's not a propaganda, it's how things work:
1) You need a new device
2) Some features are of a crucial importance for you, some you can live without
3) You do your research and find the device that mostly meet your criteria
4) You are a happy user

Any other approach leads to a certain disappointment. I've been following Maemo progress since the 770, and it cut the bar only with the N900, so I bought it knowing what to expect. I could've bought the 770/800/810 tablets and come here whininh that they are missing basic functionality, but what good would it bring? I'd just annoy the users who are happy with their device and endure frustration that I'm not.

If you know what you are getting and you are aware of its shortcomings, you won't be disappointed. As simple as that.

Assuming that some device has some feature because some other device has it is quite foolish. And you know what they say about assumptions...

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

This maemo forum is working like an anti-NOKIA and anti-N900 viral discussion. Either NOKIA rep has to step in and try to steer it in right direction or this product is going to dumps, it will definitely in the US.

I got my new N900 few days ago and have grown to like it. It has its limitations but I still like it for the open-ness part of it. Now based on the anti Nokia feeling going around here, I am thinking NOKIA is an evil corporation which does not care about its customers and will not support my N900 for all the glorious hardware it has. When my hard earned $500+ does seem to have a life beyond 1-2 years, I am starting to question its 'value' (read- not everyone can afford to throw around $500 although they like to have a nifty gadget). If things do not turn around for the better in the next couple of weeks (at least OVI navigation release could be a demonstration of NOKIA's commitment), I might just have to return the bugger back to Amazon :(

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

Sorry, but that's a bit like saying that Windows users are forced to purchase Adobe Photoshop since the included MS Paint just doesn't cut it :rolleyes:

You are not forced to do anything. You can always write your own GPS navigation app if the provided doesn't meet your needs and you don't want to pay for someone else to write it.

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

I don't think people are turning particularly anti-Nokia, but I think a lot of people feel let down and frustrated at the moment.

Nokia have a huge success on their hands in the n900, much against their own making and to their surprise it must be said, but they are sitting back and not capitalising on it. Nor do they seem to be acknowledging it or celebrating in it. I'm sure all of us would love to see Nokia grasp this bull by the horns and really drive it on. Instead it feels like they are ignoring it and continue to put their weight behind Symbian.

We should be expecting good news coming in the next couple of weeks, from the Barcelona event. If not, that would be disappointing.

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

You're missing the point here. If there's something that's already there and it's free, and it's also free on every platform that the company makes, but one of the platforms is missing functionalities, and they will or have fixed it but you (so far) have to fork out another $600+ in order to get it.. Does that sound logical? If so.. well then I think I know where to ask for money when the next device comes out.. :p

I am used to OVi maps and I was expecting that it would have the same support as Symbian.. (I actually paid for the Symbian version of "Nokia Maps")

And really your examples are so bad (not trying to be rude here), but MS paint isn't missing functionality here.. It's designed to be like that.. It's a finished product.. So it's quite different than the Adobe Photoshop..

OVi maps isn't a complete product and is missing functionality.. So really what is the point of your example there?


Also, as the post above this says, noone's turning Anti-Nokia.. I know I am not.. but really some moves like this really doesn't make sense and angers/frustrates people.. Nokia is supposidly changing.. but that obviously isn't enough, they're still doing things that basically gives the impression of "We don't want loyal customers to stay loyal.. SHOO GO AWAY"

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

Perhaps that was the intent. :)

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

That's another misconsumption. "whining", or more accurately - discussioning about missing features/functionalities led, so far, to the community developing apps and filling the gap (fMMS, android on n900, Mer, call recording, full call records and the list goes on and on...).

Besides, it's always good to put it all on the table, rather than hiding it under the carpet. If something is wrong, in ones opinion, let him express himself.

I don't agree at all. I won't spend a second to verify my new TV comes with a remote control, or that the new 6 gears car I'm gonna buy has a reverse gear. I let myself assume that the new scientific calculator has the "+" operator, although I'd probably will check if it can add complex numbers.

There are certain things I would definitely spend time to check, but for others I'll have to assume exitance. And tracking Maemo history to the n770 is not a reasonable research for my opinion.

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

But you, my good sir, are missing the point - there is nothing out there that is free for the Maemo platform except for the most basic Ovi Maps implementation. And at the time when 99% of us bought the N900 it wasn't free for the Symbian either. While Nokia/Ovi Maps have been in development for years, and it already had turn-by-turn navigation implemented, such features must be written from scratch on Maemo. I wouldn't be surprised, nor disappointed if I don't see that on my device during its lifetime. I'd be very happy if Nokia does it, tho. And I actually think that it's more viable than the prime subject of this topic - Maemo 6 on the N900. I assume they'll rewrite Ovi Maps from scratch in Qt, and thus it should be, in theory, very easy to port to Maemo 5.

As for the support of Symbian Ovi Maps, scroll couple of pages back and you'll see how Nokia f-ed up big time my experience a couple of years back - this time at least they didn't promise something they didn't deliver.

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

Since when did a front-facing camera imply that the device shouldn't have some software to take advantage of it out-of-the-box? At the very least, so that you can try it out to make sure it's working properly?

I can at least agree with you on the mapping application--there's no implied entitlement to a mapping application at all. Just, at least, SOMETHING that uses it so that, once again, you can see that it works.

It's simply disappointing that Nokia hasn't provided a better experience, but seeing as how they supposedly sold this as a 'computer first' in their ads, it's beyond disappointing (and very eyebrow raising) that they're beginning to create a walled garden in the Application Manager to prevent third party deb's and repositories and promoting this Ovi Store while making the customers, who're eagerly anticipating Sygic (a clearly MUCH better product), sit on their thumbs for Nokia to approve it for the N900. Maybe it would dispel the cynicism if we knew WHY it was sitting in limbo and an expectation of how long it takes for apps to go through approval, too.

The people criticizing you for your flippantly dismissive, "do your research," have a point in that they're pointing out what they don't like. I would argue that although you're absolutely correct--maybe they shouldn't have bought an N900--you might not be improving the process nor the product to dismiss them as customers or part of the community and send them off elsewhere. Nokia would do well to listen too, otherwise you end up with a lot of miserable owners and some of this...

Pragmatism would dictate that it would be unwise to dismiss the N900 because a bunch of other people are pooping all over it. It would also be unwise to dismiss the competition, as some have. For me, so far the Android platform has met all of my requirements where I didn't even expect it.

At least you're willing to give it the two weeks. Hopefully by then you might find it suits you better, but if it's not.. the great thing these days is that there is plenty of competition out there for your money.

I fully agree with your first paragraph, but I feel as if your second paragraph misplaces my own sentiments. I believe the problem lies less with tooting their horn and advertising, and lies much more in Nokia's lack of customer care, customer needs and brand loyalty. Maybe I'm misinterpreting your message, though.

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

I wouldn't mind paying a third-party a decent price for a navigation app that worked.

The fact it doesn't exist is just annoying.


Anywho;

if
N900.Capability == Maemo6
then
Population.happy = True
else
Population.happy = False
Nokia.wallet_boost = True