Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

Since when have they done that? You can still add repositories trivially, and installing 3rd party debs forces you to do so explicitly instead of casually jumping completely out of stream. I don't get why people think that .deb files are like .apk or .cab files. They're meant to be used via the repository model, not traded around.

I'll buy the walled garden when it becomes necessary to actively root the system like you do Android.

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

I can't help thinking there's a big exploitable bug in there.

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

Agreed, actually.. but it's one more mechanism that you're denied. You do not need to 'root' an Android system to install apk's. (There's a system option to allow or deny installing non-Market apps.. no rooting necessary. You can even install apps by scanning the barcode on the screen.. bam, done. Again, no rooting. ie: http://code.google.com/p/android-scripting/).

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

I know that when I bought the N900 Ovi Maps wasn't free.. And I didn't care at that time (and which I thought that they will still implement Turn-by-turn Navigation on the N900 or for Maemo 5, but for a price just like symbian).. But when the whole service is now free.. why do we have to look for somewhere else? And yes, I fully understand that it has to be written from scratch as this is a linux and Symbian.. well it's symbian.. but what I am saying is that (going with Nokia's opinion of Maemo 5) it's step 4/5, so why can't they "test/develop" the full Ovi maps on Maemo 5 (don't forget that QT 4.6 will be coming to Maemo 5 also), and then keep on making it better with firmware updates until Maemo 6 (then they will both share the same version).. (Kind of like Symbian S60v3 and S60v5).. This way Ovi Maps would be so much better and mature also when Maemo 6 actually becomes available too!

They would be killing two birds in one stone that way..

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

True, but Android applications are insulated from the system. They don't install like standard Linux applications, which (all?) Maemo applications are. APT requires you be root (assuming your permissions are sane.)

I'd like it more if sudo worked out of the box and required you set a password on startup. Then you could at least get some of the "do you really know what you are doing" across without forcing people to hit the repos to install out of stream packages. -maybe- a GUI combined with gksudo.

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

Maemo, a walled garden? And then Android the alternative? Interesting argumentation. Maybe signaling that it's time to review what are we all doing in this discussion.

For instance, all these users willing to have free turn-by-turn navigation in the N900 asap: have you tried Navit, currently in extras-devel? I installed it few days ago and it definitely needs volunteers and feedback. Consider investing there some of your time spent in this speculative thread.

Now back to the topic.

Look, our time to start discussing Harmattan in more detail comes with the Harmattan alpha release. Think of it: makes sense. In the meantime Nokia representatives are encouraged not to make promises or especulate, which also makes total sense.

Maemo 5 has a roadmap of updates that includes more than bugfixes. It hasn't been disclosed, but the plan exists and is being executed as we speak.

No matter what you think today, I bet by the Harmattan alpha release your thoughts will be different based on the new information we will have shared with you. In the meantime, trust me: the value and usefulness of this thread beyond (say) the post 100 is arguable to say the least.

And for you to consider: if setting "Harmattan" target milestone in maemo.org bugs and brainstorms causes all this especulation, bad mood and anxiety then you are making it easier for someone to tell us (Nokians active in maemo.org) to stop sharing any Harmattan related information, for the good of the N900 customers. Threads like this one wouldn't help us defending the increase of openness beyond the scope of open source projects.

So really, if you want to contribute to the future of Maemo and the N900 then please invest your time filing/improving/voting bug reports and brainstorms, help pushing apps from Extras-testing to Extras, try/rate/comment Ovi apps, pick your preferred missing feature and collaborate with anybody willing to push it... All this is actually fun, not only for you but also for the rest of users that will benefit from the improvements you will help pushing.

If you are not really in Maemo collaboration mood then that is also fine of course. Enjoy your Maemo device or enjoy whatever else (including competitors' devices if they suit you better). But nobody really needs more acid posts adding nothing really new to a point that has been clearly made.

Thank you, and enjoy your ride.

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

It doesn't take much to confuse me.

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

Dear qgill

This thread must be deeply frustrating for you and I understand how you feel.

I bought the n900 in December and it never leaves my side. The hard work that has gone into the design, implementation of the hardware and software is nothing short of amaziing - the technical teams at Nokia who put this together are talented and have my gratitude.

However, this statement seemed to upset a few people (including me) and the trouble started:

In particular this line "the next generation of Maemo devices".

There has been an enormous amount of speculation on this line "next generation of Maemo devices".
So new OVI Maps will only be available on "next-generation of Maemo devices" is what people here are thinking (I know this is off-topic but it proves an important point).

The next two questions this raises is "A new version of Maemo is in the pipeline - historically speaking a new version of Maemo is only released on a new device)":

(1) Does this mean my n900 is being side-lined? and
(2) Will Maemo 6 be available on my n900?


If the n900 is being side-lined then people who bought the device at it's release (2 months ago) will be annoyed.

qgill, surely you can understand this sentiment?

With regards to the next version of Maemo (Harmattan) how much different will it be?

If the major change to Maemo will be the inclusion of QT and this is the core of Harmattan then that's fine. A version of QT is available for the n900 and developers can target it.

Also some bugs that exist in maemo 5 will only be fixed in Harmatten?
If these fixes are back-ported to maemo 5 via an update of some kind that's fine. If these bugs will only be fixed in Harmattan and Harmattan will run (maybe with some tweaking) on n900 that's fine too. If these bugs are fixed in Harmattan and ignored in maemo 5 (the n900) then that is extremely dis-respectful to people who bought the n900.

I know alot of this is speculation and that is the problem. We just do not know what Nokia are plannning next.

Nokia seems to have very little actual contact with the community and seem to value "silence is better than communication". If this policy is to create speculation and "get people talking" then I am afraid this is back-firing quite badly.

I'm not suggesting Nokia tells us everything or release information that competitors can take advantage of I'm just saying give us some idea on what is going on.

The "let's be cool and mysterious by being secretive" approach only works for Apple not Nokia.

Nokia must communicate.

Give us a roadmap and give us an idea of what is going on. It's only a roadmap not the 10 commandments written in stone handed to Moses!
It just gives us an idea what is going and sometimes things change, roadmaps change and may take a different route - that's fine.

When Nokia maintains publicly silent the company appears elusive and sinister. People may get the wrong impression and think Nokia is up to "something".

We are not asking anyone to speculate or make promises you cannot keep, we are asking you "tell us what you are doing", "how much does Harmattan differ from the current version of maemo".
These are just example questions - "keep us in the loop".

Show us the roadmap, tell us the plan and why won't you disclose it?

You need to disclose something or the speculation and rumours within the community are going to get worse.

If you want a good example of a roadmap look at Gnome, KDE or Phonon - they are on your roadmap page


If you want to stop threads like this appearing on the maemo.org site then you need to be forthcoming with information.

All we really basically know is Maemo 6 will be QT-based, the next device will have multi-touch and "free" OVI Maps will be available on Maemo 6 only and a page proposing a security framework.

The problem is that people in this community are wondering and speculating "If Nokia are concentrating on the "next-generation" of Maemo devices. Is it worth my time contributing to the current version of Maemo"

I absolutely agree.

However, the lack of concrete information by Nokia is driving these kind of comments.

So, come on qgill and Nokia be more forthcoming with your plans for the Maemo platform!

You have a great product - it's even inspired people to learn to program and develop software for the n900 now that is a commitment to the platform!

The speculation and the ill-feeling from members of the community will only grow if things continue the way they are.
If it continues then eventually the IT press will pick-up on it and then it will damage Nokia's chances of being a global player in the smartphone market. Can you imagine if a site like Slashdot.org reported what was going on?

My very first mobile phone was a Nokia phone. Until recently we were staunch Sony-Ericsson users. For the first in many years my wife and I bought Nokia phones (she has the 5800 xpressmusic) and I of course have the n900.

As a UK citizen and a member of Europe I am really proud that a european company like Nokia is competing against large american companies like Apple, Google and Microsoft.

This can only mean good things for the consumer.

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

I'm not sure why people are struggling with this so much...
qgil has spelt it out pretty clearly in a few posts now that nokia has a plan and that still includes the n900 in some capacity.

it might be full M6 support or it might not but hes practically said
"i cant offically say anything but just wait and see" *wink wink*...

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

Best post ever. End of thread :D

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

Emphasis mine. Nobody said that. Targeting (timewise) a M6 milestone does not necessarily mean that it will be ONLY available on M6. We'll know more about backports/compatibility options when the SDK comes out.

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

Rather than say "i cant offically say anything but just wait and see" *wink wink" just come out and say it.

Make it official. Put everyone's mind at rest and we can all say "phew! we can relax now"

We can then end this bl00dy thread! ;)

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

You see, there are those little pesky things called NDAs, and a common sense of providing no promises if you are not sure that you can live up to them. qgil said as much as he could/would, as any responsible developer would, respect that and stop bothering him.

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

Yes you make a fair point with NDAs and it was not my intention to "bother" qgil.
If that is the case then I must offer my sincere apologies. :(

I know he is doing the best he can under the circumstances and the line "Make it official. Put everyone's mind at rest and we can all say "phew! we can relax now"" was really directed at Nokia and I should have made that clearer.

Nokia seems to have a clear idea on where Maemo is heading and I think Nokia should allow qgil to make things clearer. It will maybe take the heat out the issue of "Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?".

My still stand by what I said in my post(#688) but I did not mean to bother or harrass qgil. To be fair it was more directed at Nokia.

Judging by the size of the thread this is a "heated" debate and people feel strongly about it.

If Nokia Formally and officially make an announcement about Maemo 6 then this would clear the air immensely.

Maybe I should take this up with Nokia directly?

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

Thanks qgil, just to have an affirmation that Maemo 5 roadmap includes more than bug fixes is something that, if were well announced by Nokia PR like on the Ovi Maps announcement, probably would have made this thread much shorter...

Please understand that despite emotional posts saying things like "won't never buy a Nokia device again", we are still here, and that's because we all are enjoying N900 but at the same time worried about its future. It seems from human nature complaining more than praising...

Now you set a new milestone for our anxiety, Harmattan Alpha SDK release... :rolleyes:

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

Well, I've been in qgil's shoes (totally different projects, tho) several times and I know how it is when people are asking you questions you really cannot answer, be it because of the NDA, or because of still unclear position on the subject, and in such cases it is better to keep your mouth shut than giving a glimpse to calm down those who'd like to know everything here and now - because in such situations the old one `give a finger, they'll ask you for your arm` comes to mind.

In the past n pages the exact same thing was asked of qgil and he always calmly and clearly answered that until Harmattan Alpha SDK is out no promises cannot be made because there are just too many unknown things and/or things he cannot disclose at the moment, yet people kept asking him the same thing. I just felt sorry for the guy - that's a very unpleasant position.

I do agree that Nokia should make a bit more effort to communicate on an official level, I clearly stated that couple of pages back, but since we can't get to them we are venting our frustrations on people that do not deserve that. I, for one, am happy that at least some of the `insiders` are even willing to talk with the community disclosing their position and identities, you won't meet that on many places.

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

Qgil told a few times that Maemo.org is not supposed to be a channel for customer care, but in my opinion it could fill this role as well, just don't think Qgil should be the responsible for that.

Nokia should assign a PR or anybody else to relief him from all these complains so he can focus on other subjects, even if this PR doesn't respond what we want to know... at least would be a target, er... I mean, point of contact... :D

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

I think patience is required right now if you don't have faith...

So those dollars/euros/lint in your pocket that sees the N900 as "shiny shiny, gotta have it", if Maemo 6 is a priority to you, patience.

*sits on wallet*

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

AMEN.

Thread over.

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

reading this thread (i have to admit not every post ;)) i came to the conclusion that i don't really care if i dont get M6 on the N900 as long as i do get all the libs that the apps that are then made for M6 so that i can run them.

So if the latest QT libs are just working on the N900 then that means that every app thats build then is still working fine on the N900.. Also the other way around should Nokia support, so the M6 should be able to run all apps of that are made for the M5/N900. Dont break everything again.. Thats just bad for the developers and bad for the people that by the N900+1 and still don't really have apps from day 1.

But this does mean one thing. And i have said this before in other threads. I don't really care if the base OS is not updated any more at some point. BUT the problem is that the current firmware is not only the base OS, It has the email client (Modest) it has the browser (MicroB) it has the Media player and OVI Maps. (and i guess a few more but those are for me the most important onces)

So if it means that i don't get updates anymore also on those.. that would be bad, really really bad. (Modest really really needs to be way better, it doesnt compare to profimail on S60)
Please extract these from the firmware and let those 4 items be just repository applications that you can update.

Don't tell me because they are integrated in the OS. Please if thats the case then that is a very negative thing about linux/maemo. Windows even allows you to override all the default applications if you like....

So extract the applications from the firmware, make sure that M6 apps do run on M5 then i dont mind to much about not being able to upgrade the base OS...

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

I thought I'd complained about this PLENTY of times before, regarding my N800--and I thought I was told that these programs were removable in Maemo 5 without damaging the system, so you could free up the space for other apps that you prefer. Is this NOT the case?


Also, with regard to Nokia claiming maemo.org isn't a customer support site... where CAN customers go to where Nokia will survey complaints and obtain opinions on their products? Near as I can tell, it doesn't look like the company has ANY inclination to care for the customer, once a sale is completed.. which is, again, fine.. but this is the sort of thing that makes for a lot of regret and loss of loyalty, as I've been chanting repeatedly into the ether.

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

Online Email form:

https://www.nokiausa.com/get-support...ct-us/email-us

Ranting there could be helpful?

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

Happy now people ? We can all go back to our lives.

??? ... shut it or we will be evil ?

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

people wanting to lodge complaints or want official help can try here too http://discussions.europe.nokia.com/discussions/

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

Well, by the time Maemo 6 comes out, I can only assume that my N900 will most likely look quite bad compared to the new N950 or whatever it's going to be called. (cpu, gpu, memory, lcd etc etc) So if that's the case, I'll just upgrade to the newer phone. =P

N900 even if it is stuck with Maemo 5 was and still is and most likely will be the best little device you can get for quite some time. As qgil pointed out, it seems Nokia has some nice little surprises planned for us N900 users for some time. To me, that's more than enough of an answer to keep me happy for now. =)

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

Given past history, I'll hold my excitement in check until I actually see something that impresses me. The price of the N900 is already the first roadblock and a no-go for me to bother with it as it is. Had there been a version made without the cellphone. There would have to be a LOOOT of compelling software functionality for me to want to bother spending near-laptop money on this thing and right now, it isn't there.

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

Ditto. I've gotten real used to carrying two devices and honestly, I'd rather have the browser on the N900, the screen from the N810, and ultimately I'd be able to drop my iPhone and go with a simpler phone, saving me $30 a month for data I rarely use outside of wi-fi areas.

The non-committal answers surrounding something as simple as "Yes, we'll continue to support your N900 with the next Maemo OS, thus making early adopters and their valuable input that much more important to refining step 4 out of 5 and making step 5 of 5 an inevitable success..." would lord... make me buy one right now.

Simply because then I'd know that in 13 months from release, I'd not be left behind like I was with the N810. Past behavior from Nokia made me gun shy. Then the price - sorry, I got hit during this recession finally - so knowing that I'll not be losing an investment.

Maybe being aloof is the new "hype" perhaps.

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

With ALL of my older Nokia/Philips/SonyEricsson/Samsung/LG phones over the past 15 years or so, I never cared or even expected new OS or new funky features to be added to the phone after about first 12 months. Heck, most phones, I never even updated to a newer firmware etc.

I guess the whole expectation of continous future support is also due to iPhone/Android and WinMo devices which are able to be upgraded to newer OS versions. Also, the fact that N900 is much more computer like than most other "phones". Well, I hope I can upgrade it to Maemo 6, but really, it's already good enough to last me a while till my next new flashy gadget from Nokia or others.

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

My expectations would be much less if only the next iteration of the hardware was not using the same level of CPU. And given the nature of the prior internet tablets - some went all the way up to 2008HE on the 770 - the changes aren't that major to where the OS cannot be fit onto the machine as it stands.

Sure, there might be true reasons forthcoming why it will not work; but given what we know about the upcoming Maemo 6 device, it should be a no brainer.

As far as phones go, I'd like to get 2 full years out of one. For one that costs $600 USD, I'd expect that and no less. I'm coming up on 2 years with the iPhone3G, had the iPhone for almost 16 months... had a Startac for like 4 years, if not 5.

I don't want new features or a new OS on my phone as much as I'd like to have my new phones that boast more computer like inputs and updates and abilities to also be supported like my computers - for more than 1 year.

Call it a "portable computer", then support it like one. I do not buy a computer each year.

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

Is that to the tune of "All wOrk and no plAy Makes jacK a Dull bOy?"

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

Right, you're missing the heritage of this device and what brought it to this point. The cell-phone aspect of this device is being billed NOW as a secondary feature (despite the fact that it initially was being pushed as a cell phone, and they were INTENTIONALLY making sure people didn't call it an Internet Tablet. If this isn't a cell phone, and you're pushing it as a general computing device on par with desktops, laptops or even PDA's, then by God, I do expect it to be supported with updates, patches and a good bonus would be general compatibility with other operating systems too. If it was just a cell phone, then why is it such a crappy phone? In which case, I'd expect they should WANT to update it to make it more attractive as a phone.

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

Well put, why doom a phone by not updating it to the newer software. If there is a phone from tha same company but with the bigger and better software no one is going to want to buy the n900 after this future phone is released.
If the future phone with maemo with an all touch screen then wouldnt it make sense to update the n900 so that they could have one touch and one with a full keyboard. I would think that would boost their sales and give them a MUCH better lineup. just my 2 cents.

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

Nokia N900 will not be able to get an update or Maemo 6 as Nokia will not let it happen. They always launch new OS with New Device and its there strategy to do business. If N900 will be able to get Maemo 6 update then the sale for Nokia N920 or N** will drop which will be bad for nokia and they would have already thought about it and that is why I think Maemo 6 will not get an update.

I love this phone and am dying to explore more of it. But I am sure there are many Einstein developers who might make M6 tweak and work on N900 as I do not think there will be any hardware issues.(Hope they do not update the OMAP chip)

Cheers

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

rocky, they might put a price tag on upgrading to Harmattan, which might work alright.

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

I do not think the new Nxxx will be bad sale if N900 has Maemo 6 upgrade. Think of iPhone/iPhone 3Gs. iPhone 3Gs still sold very very good, even iPhone could have OS upgrade. That's because the new service or new software only works on new device.....That's the point.

but if N900 has Maemo 6 upgrade, N900 still could have another benefit. ex: full QT 4.6 base framework (??), full portrait mode, or new home screen ?

But it all depends on Nokia.

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

I see android is going from 1.6 to 2.1 on the HTC hero - so would be nice of nokia gave us Maemo 6.

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

My point is why not make a device with better stats: capacitive screen, snapdragon processor,....... Put maemo 6 on that device and upgrade the n900 to maemo 6. Their lineup will be unmatched with two elite devices running the new OS. One with a keyboard and one without.

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

Neither capacitive screens or a Snapdragon processor imply better stats. In fact, if there was a Snapdragon in there would be *ZERO* chance of backporting Maemo 6 to the N900 as it belongs to a very different (sub)family of ARM processors.

Re: Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?
 

How so? Accounting for drivers, if you have the proper compiler with an appropriately ported kernel, it's not -that- different. What is it about the Snapdragon that would make it impossible to backport software?