Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

I admit I haven't studied them very much (I'm still a bit behind, on Qt4.8) but AIUI QtQuick controls are meant to be for all kinds of interfaces

for example
http://doc-snapshot.qt-project.org/q...ols/touch.html

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

..lay down the weeds, Dude. They aren't healthy.

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

Great, and since these are supposedly common Qt components, one could expect to find those available on each Qt enabled platform, which makes applications more generic. It makes sense for those who aim at crossplaform reach (for example for IPC Embedlite Firefox). I guess in some cases specific components like Silica can be a plus too, but they tie the result to them and their availability.

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

No I can't because you seems to not understand that X11/XWayland IS deadend. Compabiltiy wrappers makes more stuff to debug.

But why on earth should they stick with X11 on a new embedded Linux platform? its 2013 for got sake not 1990 with server/client thinking on desktop.

But I am sure there will be thirdparty packaget to install for those who wanna play with such "toys"

X11 has been broken for long even on desktop linux. The biggest drawback for Linux IS X11 escpecially for 3D(And yes thats a bigg issue on embedded) rendering for gamers, graphics but also video rendering. Fact stand the X11 technology is to old and def not for embedded or desktop. Its for remote server administration machines from the begining and then it has been "hacked" for years to make it work better on desktop but now it has come to the fact that it need to be replaced.

Seriously it sounds more like people want X11 to tell others "hey I can run foobar X11 app on my phone" even if that X11 app will be a pointless toy cause it is unusable on a phone anyway.


Wayland or/and maybe MIR IS the future of Linux on embedded. And even on dekstop Wayland/Mir is the future if it want to be a competitor for games and graphics etc... And the biggest reason is again 3D Graphics.


Ofcourse there will be apps that will not work, especially apps that is not written in Gtk or Qt but most are anyway. And port apps from Qt4 -> Qt5 should not be an big issue for most developers AFAIK most of the API is not changed and QTQuick1(means harmattan components shoudl work) still exist in Qt5.

And Qt team gave tip already 2011 what Qt API should be avoided to be compatible in the future.

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

To late check now but if I remember correct there is also some kind of "theming API" in QtQC to make a custom look and feel on the widgets.

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

@wayland vs X11
There is still the issue of network transparency. While not really that important in out case (mobile/embedded application development), it still stands that it is something X11 has and Wayland is lacking so far.

Yes, this has been already discussed elsewhere quite heavily and yes, it should be possible to do it with Wayland using pixel scrapping.

But it still stands there is no such implementation in the current Wayland/Weston implementation.

Network transparency use-cases
From personal experience these work just fine on local (100 Mb Ethernet) network & are quite handy(as the application context stays on one machine, but the application can be used on many other machines):

• graphical terminal emulators
• Geany (wrote my bachelors thesis like this) and other editors
• Thunderbird
• Inkscape
• modRana :)

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

Wayland will implement its own network transparency, which will even allow using Wayland natively for stuff like what Nx (Nomachine protocol) does today, where X11 is just a performance hog. It's just that Wayland doesn't prioritize that aspect.

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8zwnqKysfI&t=1h11m51s

By the way. Weston is not part of Wayland - it's a reference compositor. Actual DEs, including the mobile ones will implement their own compositors, and I guess they'll have to support such features if Wayland will define a stable protocol for network transparency.

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

Note this in the Sailfish video (at 16:10)

Similar to what Stskeeps said, but sounds a bit more optimistic (he said "that will not remain as such", whatever that means).

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

Why I think I've already seen the same back in 2010-2011?

Scratch GTK in favor of Qt. Scratch Maemo, rush for Meego. Debian packaging is working fine? So what, go for rpm.

Toldya, no way to make a new whorehouse with the old whores :)

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

The same what? Switch to Qt and RPM was in Meego. Mer continues it. Nothing new in this aspect. You are several years late to complain.

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

Oh, I am not complaining. I am talking about the behavior here - one has something that is working fine (or almost), but he throws it through the window because of some blurry reasoning. Instead of polishing what he already has. The point is - IMO it is wrong to make such a major change when you are on a hurry to release a device, as it will delay that release. No matter how good you are.

The reference to GTK and .deb was in that regard - Nokia did the same when all of us were expecting the step 5/5. And we all know what the result was/is.

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

What was working fine, you mean Harmattan? Jolla has no way to reuse that, since it's closed (Nokia controlled). Jolla is using what's available - Mer + Nemo which are open and which use Qt and RPM all the way since Meego was using them. Therefore Jolla didn't throw anything out - on the contrary, they are building on the accumulated effort. There is really no novelty here. Mer exists for a while already, basically even before Meego was officially abandoned.

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIctzAQOe44
According to this, X in it's current implementation is not network transparent, and wayland does remoting.

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

Regardless, I couldn't agree more.

edit: however the reasoning isn't blurry at all. Making 60fps is really hard with X (try scrolling in harmattan with vkb open for example) and debugging is way easier using wayland.

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

Sailfish alliance working with future interruptions.
I think it's a product of lacking constant strategy and changing CEO too often. Either way, I'm sure even jolla understudy it pretty lame to have an alliance when you are on your own. That's why it's dead/quiet.

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

No, I meant what was shown a couple of months ago and what there is an alpha SDK for. Sailfish.

@qwazix: sure it is not, but if n900 with its old SGX530 and crappy drivers is capable to stream video from the main camera to GL texture with > 40-50 fps while the window is in the tasknav, just imagine what newer HW/drivers are capable of.

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

freemangordon: Qt 5 + Wayland vs Qt 4.8 + X11? I personally think it's great they went with Wayland. Sitting on X11 is getting annoying already, and if they can squeeze EGL drivers for Wayland from their SoC manufacturer - it's a really great achievement. I really hope they aren't going to use Wayland based on libhybris with bionic drivers in their own handset.

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

Why then they worked on libhybris and support to use android drivers??

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

pali: To ease porting Sailfish to crippled hardware, where no glibc drivers are available and there is no way to influence manufacturer to release them and no open drivers either. Hopefully in their own case they can get something since they plan a significant volume of production.

Sailfish isn't supposed to be limited to Jolla's handset only.

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

so in other words if they bought out 2 versions of sailfish
1. no x11 compatibility 'consumer version'
2. x11 compatibility 'backward compatible version' capable of running x11(read old qt4/gtk2 apps), then you'd buy the consumer version?

yeah....... no.

edit: can someone confirm/deny that as a result of no x11 , that all those python maemo/meego apps that we all love can't be ported, and all new apps will need to to be re/written in c++?

don't you like any of those msemo/meego apps mikecompting?

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

See, it is not what me or you prefer personally. I'd like to have Jolla phone with HWKBD, resistive screen, FMTX and hildon-desktop, but this is as relevant as your personal preference. Esp if they are supposed to fight for their place under the Sun. Why do you think the average Joe gives a **** if it is Wayland or X11 and Qt 4.8 ,Qt 5, GTK, OWL or MFC on top of WinAPI? Their target are not the tech savvy guys, but the rest. Having that in mind that move makes absolutely no sense for me. They'll be too late when (and if) they release a device, the same way N9 was too late. And that will happen for similar reasons - we have something ready and instead of trying to make it finished and polished product, we scrap half of it and replace it with something yet to see the daylight. Do you think the majority of Android users have any clue what bionic or dalvik or Surface Flinger is? I doubt.

From technical POV your "preference" might make sense, but IIUC they're not doing some kind of "art for the arts sake", but trying to sell products. That won't sell good if look crappy, no mather the genius that is hidden behind.

And what irritates me a bit is that the "code everywhere" story repeats over and over again. They released SDK, lots of people ported their applications, now what? This is disgusting, sorry.

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

Polishing X11 is like polishing a broken car from 1990...

Now go out get the facts instead of crying.

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...ituation&num=1

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

I don't blame them if they do. There is VERY FEW SoC who has core Linux drivers :(

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

Crying? WTF? I can cry for something I care much for, which is not the case with Jolla. Just sharing some thoughts, but well, ok, I'll stop that.

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

ok, so youre saying you don't want any maemo/meego apps ported to jolla?

do you need an explanation as to why youre saying that?

two letters:PY

who's going to go and learn c++ just to port their unit converter to jolla?

THP is porting gpodder to c++ jolla, but he actually works for them now AFAIK.

still you'll have lots of ANDROID apps to choose from. not all of them will work though. it just a dalvik compatibility layer and not the real thing. if that's all you want (which is exactly what youre saying), then buy a SAMSUNG.

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

Just FYI, thp is doing something called PyOtherSide for Qt5: http://thpmaemo.blogspot.co.at/2013/...n-on-qt-5.html

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

and thp is a Jolla employe since a few days/weeks

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

Great to hear, I think he can turn this sinking boat around and get some stuff done!

Plus he seems like a very nice guy without even know him :D

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

Jolla are doing a good job being Wayland adopters, while others dragging their feet behind. Wayland is stable for a while already. Time to use it. Even Intel planned to use Wayland in Meego a whole while ago. So there is no sudden "change of plans". It's BAU.

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

What the hell are you talking about? PySide can be ported to Qt5 just go out port it if you want it! its open source :rolleyes: Something that people can contribute on for free. But instead we sit here discussion instead of contribute :(

If people (including myself) used all the time here crying about no X11 to instead use the time fix the bindings it would be much better!

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

The whole issue that fmg has been alluding too is not about being good/bad adopters; its simply being led to believe initially that Qt4.8 and X11 was what would be in the first device but now with a beta SDK coming out, this has been changed abruptly.

Honestly, Jolla took their time to release the alpha SDK so they should have gone Qt5+Wayland at that time itself instead of doing so after releasing an alpha SDK. This type of abrupt changes after communicating something else is what fmg is probably alluding to about them not learning from their past history at Nokia.

I'm no dev so such changes don't matter to me but for others it may just be a case of why bother with a Company who doesn't know for sure what exactly it wants in its first device...

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

They need to move fast, and they do it. Otherwise they won't be able to compete. Ubuntu isn't going to use X11 in their handset OS for example. Yes, initially they started with X11/Qt 4.8 and I actually was concerned that it would take them too long to iterate further, but they stipulated their plans to use Wayland and Qt 5 in the future. They just decided to do it sooner, and I think it's great. Lot's of signigicant changes and often - are not ideal for development, since some were planning to work within Qt 4.8 / X11 initially. But everyone had to be ready to switch to Qt 5 as soon as it would be available. So it is now.

This whole X11 -> Wayland switch is disrupting for the whole Linux universe. So you just feel the bump in Jolla's example. You'll feel it on the desktop too. It'd worth the effort though and is much better than lingering with X11 for who knows how long still. I even consider Wayland to be late. It had to come earlier!

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

I love this line of thinking; if a commercial company who plan to sell you a device for $$$ don't give you the basic tool-set to develop for their platform, go port it yourself for free.

iOS/WP etc have their fanboys and Sailfish have you who tells people to port xyz to make Sailfish successful otherwise we won't have a linux-based phone OS and would have to live in this big bad world of Android & iOS domination...

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

Yeah right, and then people would complain because "hey are not delivering they just talk". Btw. 2012 the Wayland and libhybris was not ready and Qt5 was just released november 2012 if I remember right.

And also for those who had made apps for Silica this is not and issue. except they had to sed -i "s/QtQuick 1.1/QtQuick 2.0/g"

And facts stand whatever they choosed people here would complain. So from now on a will shut up about this issue for me this discussion its just pointless. People who complain and are affraid X/Y app will not work should instead start contribute to Mer/Nemo ASAP.

By this post I don't want to offend anyone. Just saying we see stuff in different way and I personally think its good decission in most perspectives especially in bussiness perspective if they want to release more embedded products in the future...

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

youre funny..

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

Some words of wisdom from the past:

How things change :) Like I said, I'm no dev so the change doesn't affect me but the above quote seems apt for all those who keep saying the change is minor instead of holding Jolla to account for fumbling it up despite having similar fumbles when at Nokia...

Note I'm not trying to put anyone in a bad light but I believe a bit more accountability instead of unadulterated fanboyism would help Jolla i.e. constructive criticism always helps :)

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

Well, thats the difference between open and closed source/development. Most of times all of you cry Jolla should be even more open....

But why do we discuss this anymore? thp is doing pyotherside, isn't he? Fell free to contribute to that or not. It's up to you. You have the choice.

Btw tweet from few minutes ago:

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

LOL! You think engineers shall work 24h 7 days a week just because you want that tool and also you want it to be open source. But you don't want to contribute yourself :confused:

I seen this hypocrite over and over again on TMO :rolleyes:

Seriously there is a tool its called:

SailfishSDK including: QtCreator, Qt(Quick), SilicaUIcomponents and Mer core librarys all the other stuff is extra stuff that you want and because of sailfish is based on an open source its up to the community to decide if they want thirdparty opensource apps/bindings/libs ported to mer. However I do think we will see pyside ported to Qt5 but I am not sure its by people here at TMO but there is plenty of good contributing people who cares and don't sitting all the time on TMO crying, bashing(me included to be self critical) or trolling.

If you don't like that bussiness well you are free going for Android IOS, BB, WebOS, Firefox, WP, Ubuntu mobile, or whatever its up to you.

Again we can't get everything. If we could the first thing I would choose is world peace...

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

It's good that Jolla aren't afraid of changes. As they said. Otherwise they'd be too slow.

Re: Sailfish(Jolla): Ideas/Qns & Concerns/Criticisms
 

ok, so the current situation is:

maemo apps, meego apps, and 99.99% of existing linux apps can't run on or be ported to jolla. but it can run quite a lot of android apps, but not as much as a dedicated android device. and if you rewrite your app in c++ and specifically target the jollaphone only ,it can run it.

i'd cry if it wasn't so funny.