Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

In my opinion there's not even any need for discussion. Almost 1 mm is huge. Go for it, please.


I don't remember if Kimmo used Shapeways for toholed but I think so, and it looked like that (good enough in my opinion, and it was just a prototype, maybe Dirkvl will have better results on the final keyboard). The finish could further be improved with sand paper I think.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

Coolio, I'll order some test parts.

Yes, we use shapeways, but that picture is not from sw, but made with regular hobby printer.

this is very blurry solartoh pic in black, do not have it laying around anymore for better pics

Sanding down shapeways prints will remove the colour.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

Could look very nice, wood veneer and chrome works great together in cars*, but could also look messy.

I guess that lastu would do the cut outs? Magnets directly against the wood or a small plastic border inbetween?

* Those who don't want any wood to begin with will probably not be too excited about that...

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

I think it defeats the purpose of the wood - for the back side to look good.

I don't want to sound too radical, but I don't see the point in paying for Lastucase wood with two ugly holes on the sides. 1mm is not such big of a deal and I don't think that slimmer necessarily means better. What I know is that people on Kickstarter have pledged their money for a great keyboard with good looks and I don't think that everyone would pleased if one part of this was to change (I wouldn't, even though I care more about the usefulness than the looks).

If I had a choice whether to buy the original piece or a 1mm slimmer one with an ugly back, I would definitely go for the original, thicker one.

EDIT: Well, I have pledged 20EUR more just for a better, professional look. If I knew magnets were going to be visible on the outside, I wouldn't have gone for the custom colored version and stayed at the 100EUR mark.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

no, the backplate is needed to cover the bottom side of the pcb. something has to cover it, the wood piece is just the slimmest, easiest, best-looking (opinions differ) way to do that.

okay, noted!

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

i agree with nodevel. although 1mm thickness reduce is much but i would prever to get my TOHKBD with a backplate without holes.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

Wow, doubled the goal since 04/11/2014 :
"841 Backers, €110,920 pledged of €55,000 goal"

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

Dirkvl, can you ask from Lastucase if the could carve some space for the magnets (for example 0.5mm)? So the back would look 100% and we'd gain 0,5mm slimmer design. What do you think?

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

that is not possible. the wood is already paper-thin, 0.75mm. it is one thing or another for all.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

That's too bad that opinions differ that much. I really don't like the wooden plate anyway (although I do like why it is optimal: it's thinner than the thinnest plastic wall), so I wouldn't mind if there were holes in it.

However, 0.9 mm, in addition to the 0.5 mm already shaved with the new magnets, is not negligible at all. I have a tohkbd1, I know how bulky it is and how much that bulkiness changes in awkwardness when you use it in front of people. Gaining 1.4 mm in thickness on a design already thinner than tohkb1, that would do a lot in "usability" of that keyboard. Being observed by people with awkward looks was one of the two main reasons why I didn't use tohkbd1.

Nothing says magnets would be ugly. It would just look like two metal parts that could be part of the chassis. Some people will find it nice, some will find it okayish, and some will find it ugly. Fair enough, but that's still an improvement in the design in my opinion, even though I admit the Kickstarter campaign was based on another prototype (which was still advertized as a prototype though).

For people in the latter category, magnets can be painted in black, or even better, covered by a 0.9 mm metal backplate the size of the keyboard for a full metal back, or covered by a glued 0.75 mm lastucase plate the size of the keyboard. Everybody would be happy and even those wanting a full lastucase backplate would shave 0.15 mm.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

Personally I vote for 1mm thinner!

Although, I'm not sure if having bare magnets on the backside will attract random metal objects nearby. Every once in a while you'd have to brush staple pins and paperclips off your pocket :)

Possibly a stupid idea:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1219940/n2c1zo.jpg

Use some crazy glue to hold the magnet in place. This way the magnet is closer to the other-other half and the wood covers the whole back side (thus distancing magnets from attracting paperclips).

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

Everytime I see the pics Dirk make, I think about starting a donation-campaign for a training course: The Basics of Photography :D :p

Ok - I know his assets are different ones. :cool:

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

I really like idea of shaving off that .9mm, but I'm not sure about visible magnets. If the phone ever meets some metal dust, it's next to impossible cleaning off the magnets. Also magnets are (usually) quite fragile so I'd like to have something between them and the cruel world.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

Had I thought about that, I would have never bought a Jolla in the first place...

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

Yes that is a stupid idea. That will NOT last.
(category: things I have already thought of. very shortly.)

Feel free ;) Is that course somewhere sunny with pretty ladies?

Yes, welcome in my world! :D The infinite tug-of-war between thickness-weenies, functionality-oriented powerusers and people that like everything, as long as it is shiny and made by a fruit-company.

My personal opinion is this: this solution doesn't add or destroy functionality, reduces thickness and will make it less shiny. But I like to show off mechanical stuff, if it is well made and is functional. A well crafted hinge can really make me happy so to say.
But not everybody agrees to this and if there are people that do not want this, then fine, I'll stick to the original plan :)

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

if you feel awkward, you can detach the kbd in front of people and use vkb (no idea how shiny that part will be itself without any wood), more worried about metallic dust though

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

Personally, I don't mind the keyboard being 1 mm thicker. I've owned an N900 for some years so... ;) I prefer to have the magnets invisible...

But feel free to make it thinner, as long as it won't do any harm to functionality.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

I would prefer it thinner definately.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

Just say that slimmer is better IMHO.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

People who want to hide magnets, why not just getting a thinner design and sticking a 0.75 mm lastucase plate (or anything else) on it? Sure it would require an extra purchase, or perhaps Dirk could manage an arrangement with Lastucase to get two different plates (one full size to "cover" the whole part, one with holes for the magnets to be embedded in the plastic case, hence thinner keyboard part), but I'm not sure he can do that. It would allow everybody to have the final result they want, and everybody would benefit a thinner design (0.15 and 0.9 mm gains, respectively).

Do you have tohkbd1? The level of awkwardness of a Jolla dramatically differs from the level of awkwardness of a Jolla with a custom-made and relatively large keyboard. A Jolla is not more awkward than a N900, and I think nobody had trouble using a N900 in public. Using a tohkbd is really different, so the thinner the better.

That's for sure, but it basically ruins the purpose of tohkbd2 if the only way to make it less conspicuous is to detach it.

I've owned a N900 too and its form factor really makes thickness acceptable. It fits better in jean's pockets than a Jolla without custom OH. They are really different in size, and a 16 mm Jolla is really a lot bulkier than a 18 mm N900.

http://reho.st/farm3.staticflickr.co...16590b39_b.jpg

(I do prefer the N900 form factor by the way, much easier to use, carry and manipulate in my opinion, too bad smartphones' screens are getting larger and larger.)

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

This i will not do, we already have 2400+ different combinations.

Again: this was just passing an idea by you guys to gauge the situation. I've heard a lot of good stuff and funded opinions, and have some material to work with again.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

It's not a bad idea, but...

1. Lastucase doesn't sell such case without holes for camera, so it would have to be a custom-made case.
2. Paying additional 25EUR + shipping for the TOHKBD to look like it was originally announced on the Kickstarter campaign doesn't sound like a good deal.

Anyways, the reason why I liked the wooden back on TOHKBD was that I was previously thinking about buying a Lastucase plate and this meant I don't have to. In my opinion, the wooden back was bringing a 'clean look' to the keyboard - without the clean look, I don't really care for Lastucase anymore.
IMHO:
Original look > No wooden back at all > Wooden back with cut-outs

PS: I know it's early to say that it's ugly - it can look good (and I'm looking forward to some renders), but I just can't imagine it right now.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

ok, also noted.

tomorrow probably new ugly drawing, shitty renders and terrible ideas.

(waiting on lots of test-parts, equipment, quotes on parts etc. got to keep myself busy.)

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

The lastucase plate is ugly for some people, but still useful because it's the thinnest way to cover the PCB. I think the way choices were prioritized so far (increase "usability" and feeling) should be conserved as it's the best way to improve the experience. Experience > aesthetics (even though I still think aesthetics count when the final product is too awkward to be used in public).

Just paint the magnets in black then, or draw two eyes on them and a smile on the lastucase plate. You'll get a tohkbd2 smiling because it gained 0.9 mm. :)

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

An epoxy adhesive like Scotch-Weld 2216 will definitely last. It makes a flexible and very strong bond. Used on the Space Shuttle :P

But as I said; if you don't like the idea, I put my vote on making it thinner. Possibly with a *very* thin metallic shield (e.g. mu-metal) to block the magnetic field on the bottom.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

yes, but the material it is attached to won't!

that is easier said than done. you are quick on the draw with a wiki reference, but find me a supplier that makes custom mumetal pieces for a reasonable price

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

Here's a self-adhesive sheet supplier, and then use a punch to cut magnet sized pieces.

Possibly too much manual labour (several sheets can be cut at once, so should still be reasonably quick to do), but worth investigating imho.

EDIT: Just trying to help, but let me know if I'm getting on your nerves :)

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

So... How far exactly? :D

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

I also think that thicker one would be better.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

use search function in thread looking for 'injection':

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

And that includes also shielding Jolla GSM+Wifi+BT antennas? Hmm...

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

Mu-metal only shields low frequency magnetic fields, plus they should only be as big (maybe slightly bigger) as the magnets that are blocking a bit anyway.
So I'm pretty sure it will not make a difference.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

Hey dirk,

could you explain, why this is not working.
I have read all post, but i don't unterstand.
Thanks

Best regards
az211

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

maybe i missed something...
well i certainly did as i didn't follow this thread for weeks but...

my understanding is that the wooden cover comes on the bottom of the actual keyboard part (the side which is mostly visible when the keyboard is not used)
why do the magnets have to be on the bottom if they should attach to the magnets of the Jolla backside (the upside of the keyboard, right?)?!?

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

Hmhmh. I played around with Sketchup, but I suppose I'm fine with the rounded cutouts in the wood for the two magnets. I do really like the third one, as the wood is slightly less overwhelming (exhibit A, B), but it'd obviously be significantly harder to do so not feasible.

http://aonsaithya.kapsi.fi/url/jolla...odsample-1.jpg

Then again, the grey wood ("kelo") is more subtle, both on white and black keyboard pieces.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

the magnets will be pulled out

they are not on the bottom, nor on the top. there is material on both sides to keep it in place. it is mounted from the bottom because otherwise

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

oh cool, thanks for the quick sketch!

the second one i had in mind, but given the mixed response i will not go through with this

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

Oh why not? After seeing the sketches I like it even more. How about a poll?

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

I just want to say that I fully trust dirks experience and judgement.
From what I understand from following this thread, he made extensive and thorough R&D to come up with the project as it is.

Imho, making substantial changes at this stage is not such a good idea.

Changing the position of the magnets may appear simple but, e.g., adding new components (like glue, epoxy, ...) and the combinations of the components (cover <-> glue <-> magnet) imho add significant error potential and would require to repeat quite a lot of R&D or even longer additional testing.

Similarly, injection molding may sound cool. But there are many uncertainties as well, e.g., the molding process may vary, the molding tools may not fit on the first try, or the quality of the material may not match the expectations.
Furthermore, the costs for iterations in molding, e.g., when the tools have to be changed are in the magnitude of thousands of euros compared to about tens of euros for 3D-printed parts. Plus the advantage dirk mentioned that the 3D-printed parts can be re-ordered by anyone who has access to the respective files.

Last but not least, the backers at kickstarter had a very good overview to know what they subscribe to. Changing this afterwards could be problematic and may lead to frustration and disagreement.

Re: TOHKBD rev2
 

Thanks for very eloquently summarizing and clarifying my situation. Will quote you in future ;)