Re: camera-ui2 (now a part of CSSU) (updated 09. May)
 

Correction - You *downgraded* to stable. CSSU testing is always ahead, so obviously, You got older version of camera-ui using CSSU stable.

To get new version in most easy way, just upgrade to CSSU testing.

/Estel

Re: camera-ui2 (now a part of CSSU) (updated 09. May)
 

thank you very much, upgrade starts!

Re: camera-ui2 (now a part of CSSU) (updated 09. May)
 

Good luck, but, despite it being off-topic here, I'm not sure if it is possible - it was written "somewhere" on CSSU thread, that switching between testing and stable branch is possible only through reflash or some very complicated operations. Of course, I may be wrong, but, in any case, You hope that You've prepared backup.

/Estel

Re: camera-ui2 (now a part of CSSU) (updated 09. May)
 

thanx guys for making n900 camera better and better
next stop 3D camera :)
i hear someone saying impossible...
what guys done here with camera prove to me (all)
there's nothing impossible
:)

Re: camera-ui2 (now a part of CSSU) (updated 09. May)
 

Well the sky is the limit, so there are boundaries. For 3D you need to have 2 lenses to realize depth. You can't see depth with 1 eye ;)

Re: camera-ui2 (now a part of CSSU) (updated 09. May)
 

just let me dream about it :)
after the sky there is unlimited space

Re: camera-ui2 (now a part of CSSU) (updated 09. May)
 

3D? Check it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BO1bM...ure=plpp_video

It's not likely to be ever released, but it's proof at least a small 3d effect is possible. I think it's mainly a curiosity, i find it useless for any practical or aesthetic mean...

Re: camera-ui2 (now a part of CSSU) (updated 09. May)
 

Well, actually, You 'kinda' can. People with such different optic dating from childhood, often are able to perfectly "sense" depth, probably due o some 'brainware' algorithms of analyzing image. In our case, it would be "software" image proceeding.

Anyway, I don't see much use for it, as long as it doesn't allow us to take multiple photos from fixed angle and create 3D project of image, for 3D printers, or CNC workstations ;)

/Estel

Re: camera-ui2 (now a part of CSSU) (updated 09. May)
 

Next: Estel trying to connect N900 with fake-3D camera mod to 3D printer... *g*

Re: camera-ui2 (now a part of CSSU) (updated 09. May)
 

Laugh when You still can, I'm currently in process of glue'ing my self made tripod fast connector to N900 modified mugen cover, thus making it 100 usable as RAW-taking tripod camera for nigh shots ;)

Eh, I would *love* to being able of disabling sensor's infra-red filtering - that, mixed up with few IR diodes powered from N900 USB hostmode, would make nice short-range Night Vision device ;) I've tried powering IR diodes from USB (and directly from battery itself), and it works nicely. Unfortunately, sensor part is a blocker for me - pity, cause sensor is definitely *able* to catch IR light.

Re: camera-ui2 (now a part of CSSU) (updated 09. May)
 

http://images.cheezburger.com/comple...4618531329.jpg

To quote "Predator": "You're one, ugly... mother****er." (Your N900, of course.)

Re: camera-ui2 (now a part of CSSU) (updated 09. May)
 

Maybe you can "cut" or remove the protective "glass" on N900 camera and replace it with common glass... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cover_slip
It may turn your camera unusable... or it may enable it to take Night Vision Shots... :P

Re: camera-ui2 (now a part of CSSU) (updated 09. May)
 

Thanks, but it doesn't matter. IR filtering is done (in our case) directly on sensor, probably hardware controlled.

/Estel

Re: camera-ui2 (now a part of CSSU) (updated 09. May)
 

Ay? It will be an optical lowpass filter surely...(i.e. A piece of glass/plastic)

Re: camera-ui2 (now a part of CSSU) (updated 09. May)
 

Hm, in such case, need to check it again. I must admit - I based assumption about hardware'ish filtering on discussion from fCam API forum (can't find link now), where someone gave up due to inability of enabling IR full-pass. That's why I focused on building multi-IR-diode setup powered from N900 battery, and later, from USB port.

The known "joy trick" is watching IR diodes light from remote controllers on N900 viewfinder - so, our filtering isn't very restrictive, yet, too high to allow true short range nightvision. Does anyone have idea, which part exactly can be IR filtering? Could it be plastic part that we see from outside, or something between lenses and sensor, like strange1712 suggested?

AFAIK (again, based on talk with some photo guy, not my own research) removing IR filtering would case problems with focus, when taking regular photos. So, *if* filter is really accessible, we would need to setup some "switching" mod.

Quite complicated, but it is nothing compared to joy of having short-range high resolution Night Vision option in our lovely device, almost for free (bunch of cheap IR diodes, and some modding work).

/Estel

Re: camera-ui2 (now a part of CSSU) (updated 09. May)
 

Correct, for NIR photography in the old days lenses would needed to be focused differently, using the famous red dot mark,

http://www.maxmax.com/ir_techniques.htm
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/re...d%20dslr.shtml ("More on Infrared Focusing")
http://photo.net/black-and-white-pho...g-forum/00OIsi

That's why i never got to buy a newer camera after my PowerShot G1 - it was too simple to shoot NIR, even with an B+W 093 filter.

Re: camera-ui2 (now a part of CSSU) (updated 09. May)
 

What about increasing exposure time upper limit from 1s to something more meaningful like 20s or even BULB. I tried recompiling fcamera with a wider exposure range but NokiaSDK was being a jerk about linking external libraries... Or is this a hardware restriction too?

Re: camera-ui2 (now a part of CSSU) (updated 09. May)
 

I don't see any reason, why it should be hardware restricted. yet, for sure You can't achieve it with camera-ui - it's using what libraries provide, so no fine-pitch exposure control.

With fCam libraries, it should be 100% possible (fixme?).

/Estel

Re: camera-ui2 (now a part of CSSU) (updated 09. May)
 

I'm lost.
Estel, what exactly are you trying to achieve with your N900? I understand the tripod part but the rest...
Please excuse my ignorance.

Re: camera-ui2 (now a part of CSSU) (updated 09. May)
 

Few independent things, lest say, few projects.

One, that I haven't considered seriously until recently, is short-range Night Vision. Google for original idea - when it comes to our device, the point is that our sensor is perfectly capable of catching full InfraRed range, yet it is limited by hardware. Until recently, I though it is hardcoded in sensor controller (i.e kinda software'ish limit, but impossible to bypass without hardware change = just lik
e hardware limit). Ho ever, strange and other suggested, that IR is filtered rather by small plastic part - hardware filter.

Just as proof of concept, some time ago I prepared set of IR diodes, that may be powered from both USB (via hostmode) and battery itself (using dr-frost-dk's modded battery with external plug). The power of InfraRed light is enough to light up 15-30 meters in full darkness (shorter when using USB hostmode, longer, due to higher power, when using N900 battery itself) - of course IR light is invisible for human eyes, but is perfectly visible for our sensor, if we're able to remove IR filtering plate.

Now, why the plate is there at all? When not filtering IR, light spectrum on photo is different, and algorithms used by autofocus are not working (in our case - as don-falcone pointed out, there are workarounds for good'old standalone cameras). Generally, some photographers remove IR filtering to get some very interesting looking photos even in daytime - after all, we also have manual focus - but, my main goal is to enable Night Vision mode, where we can see things in the dark, without actually lighting surrounding up by light visible to human eye. Particularly, You look at screen, and You see things, that are not visible without screen. I don't know how to write it more clear - You just need to have basic idea what NightVision device is.

This can be (probably) achieved quite easy right now, with one drawback - we would lose ability to take normal daylight photos (due to broken autofocus and bizarre colors). This doesn't match my 'aesthetic' ;) so I'm designing hardware mod to physically swap IR-filtering plate, and 'dummy' regular glass/plastic plate (without filtering capabilities). Of course, I first need to check if the outer plate (that is accessible) is really *this* plate that perform filtering.

---

Now, second thing, that tecs mentioned in his post, is exposure time (not related to IR and NightVision). Max shutter open time - achievable by fCam libraries - is 1 second. It's very long for regular photos, but using tripod, and taking night shots (normal, not infrared), it is many times - if not most - desirable to have longer shutter open time. This way, You can make very good quality photos of static objects, even in *very* low light enviroments, or, interesting photos of moving objects (like parallax of stars).

/Estel

Re: camera-ui2 (now a part of CSSU) (updated 09. May)
 

I see, thanks for the write-up.
Shutter open time well makes sense in my head, but I "should" google about night-vision.

Re: camera-ui2 (now a part of CSSU) (updated 09. May)
 

Undefined shutter open would rock, with extra low ISO you could take very interesting Long (hours!) exposure photos... :)

Re: camera-ui2 (now a part of CSSU) (updated 09. May)
 

...why not buy cheap Canon (maybe A series), remove the filter there, and just put CHDK on it? Hell, i can sell you my 10 years old PowerShot G1 (just needs a new battery) which is NIR-compatible out-of-the-box! Or a second-hand years old Sony camcorder? with night mode? It's just one small box more. The N900 is not _that_ an all-rounder. At least not without frankenstein-looking. The amount of time you spend on research & modding is with very high probability more (expressed in bucks) than it would cost you to use a second-hand dedicated device (with it's own battery, btw.).

Re: camera-ui2 (now a part of CSSU) (updated 09. May)
 

But where is the fun in that?

Re: camera-ui2 (now a part of CSSU) (updated 09. May)
 

This is what progress is. It is good on several levels - coders get to practice and refine their skills, workarounds and unconventional fixes can sometimes lead to a new discovery and most importantly we refine our N900s.

AFAIK fCam is targeted not only at N900 so other devices would also benefit from its development.


@Estel I also made my own N900 tripod and am drooling over night photography. The sensor's 100 ISO setting is pretty well suited for low noise images.


Also this is worth looking at Post 665 @ this thread, but nobody gave it any attention (and I even made those pretty graphics)..,

Re: camera-ui2 (now a part of CSSU) (updated 09. May)
 

thinking of experimentation
is it possible to make a motion-cam out of N900...(i think a bit tough)

but i think if we some how trigger the camera capture with the microphone
we will be able to grab the pictures/videos on any audio activity... :)

Re: camera-ui2 (now a part of CSSU) (updated 09. May)
 

Well, apart of answer that You've already got from OVK and tecs, reason - in my case - is simple. I always have my N900 with me. *Always*. And you know murphy law, you can have with you (even smallest) second camera, then, after half of an year, when You won't have it for one day, a plentora of interesting photo opportunities manifest themselves. It's exactly same with heavy tripods - they're great, powerful, stable, etc, but you never have them when You really need it. So I'm using ~0,3 kg modified tripod, that suits both my photo and video needs.

When comes to NightVision device (not photos - I mean viewfinder), it's even more clear - most of the time, you aren't carrying Night vision goggles with you, yep? NightVision photography is quite different things, cause You prepare for it (most of the times) - yet, it's still super cool to have it on N900 itself.

Of course, I admit that modding-fun is great part of why the heck bother". I also agree that it would probably cost the same - minus time spent on modding - to buy ready device (yet, i must admit that I've spent almost no money on mods, except some glue, and 0,1$ parts - I'm basically self-manufacturing everything, including tripod mount itself). Well, I could say that - at least - I don't need to explain my wife why we need IR capable camera or Night Vision device ;)

But the truth is, that modifying it, and achieving such "unbelievable" things in our N900 is a lotta hell of fun. Just ask freemangordon, why he's working on 720p video recording and viewing, while camcoders of such capabilities can be bought cheap. Damn, if we already got those mini, wideangle Tessars (that probably are too small to benefit from 5 MP anyway ;) - fixme?), lets use it fully!

/Estel

// Edit

Should be totally trivial to write for even moderately experienced coder (which, unfortunately, I'm not). Even with trigger only on user-set dB - there are many chunks of code available for it in our extras/garage projects.

// Edit 2

Tecs, I haven't commented about Your lossless digital zoom idea, because I haven't anything of value to say about that (thus only "Thanks" button pressed) - sounds nice, but totally out of scope for my skills, to even think about way of implementing. I wonder though, if it is even possible to implements using fCam libraries (as for camera-ui(2), it's probably not, as it's using what we already got by libraries and modules, modifying GUI side).

Re: camera-ui2 (now a part of CSSU) (updated 09. May)
 

Some time ago, I mentioned vignetting problem visible in RAWs (be it camera-ui ones, or fCAM), that was very hard to fix manually. Thanks to geohsia, we have FOSS fix for that! Look here:
http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...7&postcount=19
You can also find nice examples of what I've been talking about (cyan vignette).

If we're talking about RAW's, two questions:
1. geohsia stated, that fCAM RAW's are "better suited" to create vignette-deletion profiles (using them as reference image for CornerFix's algorithms). I've experimented with images using tripod - in exact same light conditions etc, one made with fCam, and another using camera-ui. Indeed, they're giving a little different results.

I know fCam uses different libraries, but shouldn't RAW (being sensor data dump) be close to identical?

2. Could anyone knowledgeable about N900 RAW's explain me that?
http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...2&postcount=29
Is it useless "ghost" thumbnail, remnant of JPG creation on N900 (from RAW, that we're using now), or is it indication of some useful, yet unused (maybe because some errors in creating .dng from our RAW) data left in RAW?

Re: camera-ui2 (now a part of CSSU) (updated 09. May)
 

Hi Estel,

my camera-ui uses maemos camera library (gdigicam/gstreamer) for
creating the image. It is the camera driver which generates
the preview image and the final image.

When raw-mode is enabled, I grab the raw imagedata, create
a dng file and use the preview image from the camera driver
as the thumbnail. So, the thumbnail image is the post processed
image from the camera driver, that's the why it is looking
different than the raw image.

Taking the preview image as the thumbnail image for the raw dng
file isn't the best way. But it was simpler than writing my own
code for generating a thumbnail image. The way nokia post processed
the image data is part of the closed source components and
the parameter are undocumented or unknown.

Re: camera-ui2 (now a part of CSSU) (updated 09. May)
 

Thanks for answer, Nicolai. If I understand it correctly, raw imagedata is the same, no matter who pick it up (fCam or camera-ui). So, fCam creates .dng file (from mentioned raw imagedata) differently? It is even possible?

Of course I mean image data itself, not thumbnail, that must be different - this case is very clear, and thanks again for explaining.

---
Fortunately, CornerFix does awesome job on (lossless) getting rid of cyan vignette, so we've overcome the biggest obstacle of getting high-quality images from RAWs. Furthermore, CornerFix is FOSS, so there is a chance that it's going to be ported to N900 (which, in tandem with ufRAW, supply us with whole 'photolab' on device).

I'm pretty sure, that other things, resulting in "better" coloration on jpeg's created by closed-source components, are just matter of proper advanced image processing in RAW developer, and with some work involved, we can create even better "general purpose" set for developing our RAW's (such profile - for example, ufRAW compatible - can be freely distributed), + still having possibility to manually tweak every image (with or without applying generic profile first), if desired.

Thanks for making mthis dream come true - without Your work on camera-ui, it wouldn't be impossible (fCam still lacks many parameter possible in camera-ui)!

Re: camera-ui2 (now a part of CSSU) (updated 09. May)
 

Working with cameras all day, yes.. it's quite possible. There are about 80 different knobs and tuning parameters on CCD chips these days, and the controllers that operate them can have literally hundreds, depending on how complex they are. Given the N900 has integrated optics, amplification, and compression bits... I'd be very surprised if the raws from two different apps without identical shared camera/chip setup code got the same raw from a single CCD. Not to mention things like drift and noise, which will change from shot to shot in the same app.

Re: camera-ui2 (now a part of CSSU) (updated 09. May)
 

The source of the raw image is the same (camera memory). But of course,
the image data itself depends on the capture settings (iso and
exposure time).
My camera-ui uses the stock camera driver settings, whereas fCam uses a wider/finer range of exposure settings.


Looks like a no-go.
From the CornerFix README:
"In order to compile this, you need to download the Adobe DNG SDK 1.3, and recompile it"

And Adobe DNG Software Development Kit (SDK)
is only available for windows and mac.

Re: camera-ui2 (now a part of CSSU) (updated 09. May)
 

CornerFix is very sensitive to overexposed highlights and fCam's ability to control shutter speed / ISO make a big difference.

Re: camera-ui2 (now a part of CSSU) (updated 09. May)
 

Hi Nicolai. Do you think there is any way to address what looks to be compression on the dark side of the tone curve. Thx.

Re: camera-ui2 (now a part of CSSU) (updated 09. May)
 

What tone curve?

Re: camera-ui2 (now a part of CSSU) (updated 09. May)
 

Using 720p-recording enabled camera-ui, every time I try any ISO other than ''automatic'' (in photo mode, of course), viewfinder goes totally black, and resulting photos are also 100% black - no matter of lighting conditions. Could anyone confirm this? Also, could anyone check if this happen on CSSU-t camera-ui (*without* 720p video recording control)?

/Estel

Re: camera-ui2 (now a part of CSSU) (updated 09. May)
 

He probably mean things mentioned in other thread:

So, basically, there are some details - especially in shadows - that are "lost" while using RAW (not possible to recover even with extreme settings during RAW development on appropriate software), but are present in jpegs. So, geohsia assumes, that - beside Nokia's RAW-to-JPEG development closed source algorithms - there is something else ''wrong'' with our RAWs.

/Estel

Re: camera-ui2 (now a part of CSSU) (updated 09. May)
 

I was going to check Estel's ISO problem when I found out my device didn't support 720p anymore (and I am pretty positive it did)...
I reinstalled everything 720p related + freemangordon's latest camera-ui2. His version is 1.1.29.2+0cssu7 and I had 1.1.29.2+0cssu8 (CSSU update replaced his version?). Reboot and it works again!

Back to Estel's problem: in both versions (0cssu7 and 0cssu8) manual ISO on both video and pictures does not black out the viewfinder and captured output is fine also.

Re: camera-ui2 (now a part of CSSU) (updated 09. May)
 

CSSU replaced version with cssu8 - You can replace it with cssu7, but You'll got "broken dependencies" errors, after trying to install anything. One way to get around it is pinning package in apt-get (can't do that in fapman). Other method is to unpack cssu7 version, change cssu7 to cssu8 in control file, and dpkg pack it again. I'm using this exact method. I was explained in this thread, if I remember correctly.
---

Thanks for checking my issue. Still, I have no idea, what may be causing it (I doubt tweaking control file does?).

// Edit

OK, I'm pretty sure there is some voodoo'ing involved, but I've checked it moment ago, and now it's working flawlessly (including viewfinder changing brightness in higher ISO). For few days - including yesterday - it wasn't working, and I was scratching my head about possible issue, until reporting here. I wasn't installing anything related (just Cleven-experimental) or messing with any settings in-between.

So, sorry for false alarm, but I have no idea what was causing that. I'm glad it works, anyway...

// Edit 2

Ok, it wasn't voodoo after all. This bug still exist - it manifest itself only, if one choose (+) exposure (via tool button) and manual ISO. On all (-) exposure everything is fine, but on any (+) exposure and manual ISO selection, screen goes 100% black and resulting photos are also 100% black.

// Edit 3

The resulting photos and viewfinder isn't 100% black - if I direct device into strong light source, I can actually barely see it (both in viewfinder and resulting photos). Then strange thing is that, it's same for every ISO settings - even 1600 one! And, as I've said, it's happening only on (+) exposure settings (for example, + 0.5, +1.0 etc)

Re: camera-ui2 (now a part of CSSU) (updated 09. May)
 

I can confirm this, I'm using CCU8 package, I hadn't had time to document it, and I have also been trying a lot of things at the same time (BFS, 720p, NITDroid, etc), so I hadn't found time to check it correctly.
But actually your description is accurate. I would add I have to change back to Automatic ISO to have a change to get again EV compensation working (and not black screen)...

I've also found it's really hard to "autofocus" when there is too low light... BlessN900 and Fcamera both focus faster on the same conditions...