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-   -   The new QWERTY device project (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=99632)

juiceme 2018-01-19 13:31
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pichlo (Post 1540388)
That objection is purely emotional and not based on anything rational.
Making a screen is cheaper than making a keyboard. That's why manufacturers push large screens down your throat.
It might be emotional but it is utilitarian too; a screen is for viewing, a keyboard is for touching.

No need to getting senses confused!

Feathers McGraw 2018-01-19 14:30
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pichlo (Post 1540390)
Yes. Another reason for pushing them to the customers. As big as possible and as thin as possible. The more the customers break the more they have to come back for new ones.
Extremely cynical of you, but I think you might be onto something...

pichlo 2018-01-19 15:29
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feathers McGraw (Post 1540401)
Extremely cynical of you
Middle names are not very common where I come from but if they were, "Cynical" would fit me quite well :D

r0kk3rz 2018-01-19 16:47
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pichlo (Post 1540348)
Some like the vicar, others like his maid. For me, the main advantage of a physical keyboard is not that it is separate from the screen. It is that you can feel the keys before you press them. A virtual keyboard on a second screen will not have that property, unless covered with some kind of bubble wrap-like transparent dome sheet.
That's true, but at the cost of manufacturing multiple versions of the device with all the wonderfully varied keyboard layouts that people from all around the world expect.

Which is probably a major reason why hardware keyboards went on the wayside in the first place, to remove the pain of having to manage all that region specific stock!

mscion 2018-01-19 16:51
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Anyone interested in the ZTE Axon M? Two screens. One screen can be used as keyboard in landscape. Apparently offered by AT&T in US.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z11uL2wmLVA

EDIT: Landscape keyboard at 3:44 in video

Dave999 2018-01-19 17:27
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mscion (Post 1540409)
Anyone interested in the ZTE Axon M? Two screens. One screen can be used as keyboard in landscape. Apparently offered by AT&T in US.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z11uL2wmLVA

EDIT: Landscape keyboard at 3:44 in video
I am not sure I can get my hands on it obviously the first of its kind is not perfect. But atleast it’s something new until the disc phone arrives.

feedme 2018-01-19 20:23
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
It could be possible to do keyboard with force feedback/ sensing etc. to screen like apple home key.

Kabouik 2018-01-20 01:50
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mscion (Post 1540409)
Anyone interested in the ZTE Axon M? Two screens. One screen can be used as keyboard in landscape. Apparently offered by AT&T in US.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z11uL2wmLVA

EDIT: Landscape keyboard at 3:44 in video
As far as I'm concerned, there is no way this could be a good substitute to a Livermorium and I hope Chen will soon soon share his plans for 2018 regarding this device.

However, I must admit that the video actually surprised me. I thought this would be totally useless, but in fact I think the form factor is kinda interesting. Of course it's not as comfortable as a single screen with the same screen estate due to the bezel that gets in the way, but it's a phone and it fits in a pocket, while still providing the advantages of a tablet (which in my opinion are not really obvious, except from the extra comfort when reading content). For web use, I wouldn't mind an horizontal bezel too much, and it's a non issue when multi-tasking with two applications side by side. A double-sided hinge would be nice too, so that the clam shell could be closed with screens facing inwards in those situations when you have only one pocket but also need to carry some coins/keys/whatever, thereby reducing the need for horrendous screen protectors.

In the end, the screen management software is never going to work with something else than Android unfortunately, so that will be a no-go for me.

Koiruus 2018-01-24 23:01
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pichlo (Post 1540388)
That objection is purely emotional and not based on anything rational.
Making a screen is cheaper than making a keyboard. That's why manufacturers push large screens down your throat.
Screen as a kb is much more power hungry than a hwkb. Assuming it wouldn't have own battery, and based the fact that most Sailfish devices have some power management issues, doesn't sound like a plan at all.

In that ZTE's device, looks like there is 2 identical phones (maybe not really) connected together, so perhaps they have own batteries also.

pichlo 2018-01-25 12:00
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koiruus (Post 1540552)
Screen as a kb is much more power hungry than a hwkb.
As well as having other disadvantages, such as the lack of tactility.
I did not dispute that. I was merely stating that they are cheaper to produce than HWKB (no fiddly movable parts, different layout easily achieved in software...) and thus they are a preferable option for the manufacturer. Not necessarily for the user.

Koiruus 2018-01-25 15:43
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pichlo (Post 1540563)
As well as having other disadvantages, such as the lack of tactility.
I did not dispute that. I was merely stating that they are cheaper to produce than HWKB (no fiddly movable parts, different layout easily achieved in software...) and thus they are a preferable option for the manufacturer. Not necessarily for the user.
Yeah, I guess my post wasn't really a reply to you, but rather that whole "another screen as kb" -topic. Just picked up your post to somehow connect my message to that conversation, which was mainly over. So I got your point about manufacturers' perspective and have no need to argue with that :)

Zero Six 2018-01-25 23:57
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Is this project still feasible?

meego_leenooks1 2018-01-27 19:02
Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chenliangchen (Post 1531509)
Here is the specs of this device. This is not a fanboy dream - we already have working - stablised - debugged solution. It's real.

This is also not 100% confirmed and subject to further change. But this is what we are working at the moment.

The Livermorium "Pocket PC" Lauta-revival project:

SoC: Qualcomm MSM8953 64-bit 14nm

We decided to choose a mid-tier instead of flagship SoC because:
- It's very expensive to get the flagship components with small quantity
- The flagship solution itself is very expensive
- Most of the time it's over powered and waste battery
- MSM8953 is very power efficient and also have great performance

Display: 5.5" FHD 1080p IPS, Capacitive, 2.5D glass

The reason choose 5.5 over 5.0:
- More "compatible" with Moto Keyboard Mod's slider part, same size, less work
- More space on keypad, means bigger keys and more keys
- Bigger battery

Camera:
Front 8MP
Rear Dual 13MP+13MP (RGB+Monochrome)

Some of the best we can get at the moment.

Storage: 64GB ROM +4GB RAM

Keyboard: 5 Rows slider similar to Moto Keyboard Mod, screen can be lifted.

BT4.1, WiFi 802.11 b/g/n and 5GHz, GPS/Beidou/Glonass/Galileo
USB Type-C with OTG, 3.5mm jack, MicroSD, Dual Sim, IR

Quad LTE bands + Quad WCDMA bands + Quad GSM bands.
One version for NA and one version for EU

Sensors: Gravity, Proximity, E-compass, Gyroscope, optional fingerprint

Unlocked bootloader

Battery 3500mAH

Regarding OS, from all the great suggestions, here is the plan:

- Sailfish OS (will try to make it happen)
- Lineage OS or GMS-Android (for general users who just want a physical keyboard)
- A third OS? I will also support any individual/orgnisation who wants to develop OS other than above.

Above is the plan. More updates will be posted later.
Awesome specs except the Monochrome camera and fingerprint scanner. Remove these and I'm in!
Also thanks for choosing not the godamn Mediatek CPU.

juiceme 2018-02-02 07:04
Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by meego_leenooks1 (Post 1540639)
Awesome specs except the Monochrome camera and fingerprint scanner. Remove these and I'm in!
Also thanks for choosing not the godamn Mediatek CPU.
What have you against those features? IMHO it is better to add HW that is not useful to everybody, because someone else might need that.
And if you don't need it, well then you just don't use it.

pichlo 2018-02-02 11:09
Re: The choice of OS of the new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by juiceme (Post 1540767)
What have you against those features?
Playing the devil's advocate, I can think of quite a number of things:
  • An unnecessary cost increase for someone not needing them
  • Occupying space that could be used by features I would use (e.g. more memory, an SD card slot, a second SIM slot...)
  • An extra feature to maintain, provide driver updates, etc.
  • An extra thing that could break, potentially affecting other things I would use

Those are just the things I could come up in a few seconds. I am sure I could come up with more given the time ;)

meego_leenooks1 2018-02-02 12:30
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
I could justify the fingerprint scanner for adding some comfort to device usage (though creating some problems for personal security), but I see absolutely no point in the second camera, especially monochrome one.
If you was creating a hardcore "pro specs" device you could possibly add a second camera with different focal range "for portraits", but why monochrome?
Also I second pichlo's post above.

Heik 2018-02-02 13:54
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by meego_leenooks1 (Post 1540775)
... but I see absolutely no point in the second camera, especially monochrome one.
https://www.deccanchronicle.com/tech...ra-sensor.html

Quote:
The monochrome sensor has been long known to provide an unparalleled sharpness to the images they capture. Professional photographers prefer to go for a camera with a monochrome sensor for capturing maximum detail with superior image clarity. Therefore, the implementation of this sensor into a smartphone’s camera module as the secondary sensor could help concerned consumers get the best of each shot.

British 2018-02-02 14:45
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heik (Post 1540779)
Quote:
The monochrome sensor has been long known to provide an unparalleled sharpness to the images they capture. Professional photographers prefer to go for a camera with a monochrome sensor for capturing maximum detail with superior image clarity. Therefore, the implementation of this sensor into a smartphone’s camera module as the secondary sensor could help concerned consumers get the best of each shot.
That's all well and good, but I, for one, am waiting on Chen's phone because I want an Linux-ish OS (which would happen to not be from any of the GAFAs) phone with a hardware keyboard.

I'm not interested in having a "professional camera" (sic) in my phone...

Your mileage does seem to vary, though.

chenliangchen 2018-02-02 16:13
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Very interesting talk on the dual screen. I actually happen to have both the Chinese version (6+128GB) and AT&T (4+64GB) of the Axon M.

It's a very good device but in my point of view it cannot replace HW keyboard for following:

- Typing on one screen still feels different than typing on physical keys
- Additional screen is more power consuming
- Dual screen is more vulnerable in a drop

But on the other hand, it's not easy to make to make a dual screen phone, engineering work and software needs a lot efforts. Salute to ZTE that have the will to try.

chenliangchen 2018-02-02 16:15
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Back to this product. Livermorium had some good exposure with the Keyboard Mod with Motorola at CES, and we have started delivering to the backers.

However, this QWERTY product has been delayed because I put the remaining resources into helping delivering Youyota Tablet. And the process of Youyota Tablet so far has affected the timeline for this "Lauta" project severely, the progress also affected our view of having future official Sailfish OS collaboration.

Therefore, it might be to your disappointment, we will no longer seek Sailfish OS as the prime OS for this product. But I can assure you that I will move forward with the hardware work and seek for alternative Linux solutions.

Dave999 2018-02-02 16:20
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chenliangchen (Post 1540784)
Very interesting talk on the dual screen. I actually happen to have both the Chinese version (6+128GB) and AT&T (4+64GB) of the Axon M.

It's a very good device but in my point of view it cannot replace HW keyboard for following:

- Typing on one screen still feels different than typing on physical keys
- Additional screen is more power consuming
- Dual screen is more vulnerable in a drop

But on the other hand, it's not easy to make to make a dual screen phone, engineering work and software needs a lot efforts. Salute to ZTE that have the will to try.
That’s awsome! Whats the differance. Can’t wait to see one in the wild.

An additional screen is all about visibility and productive work while typing. All arguments so far are/is invalid :D

deutch1976 2018-02-02 21:02
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chenliangchen (Post 1540785)
Back to this product. Livermorium had some good exposure with the Keyboard Mod with Motorola at CES, and we have started delivering to the backers.

However, this QWERTY product has been delayed because I put the remaining resources into helping delivering Youyota Tablet. And the process of Youyota Tablet so far has affected the timeline for this "Lauta" project severely, the progress also affected our view of having future official Sailfish OS collaboration.

Therefore, it might be to your disappointment, we will no longer seek Sailfish OS as the prime OS for this product. But I can assure you that I will move forward with the hardware work and seek for alternative Linux solutions.
Disapointed by reading these lines but you'll have your reasons. Was waiting for a real sailfish machine but after all these years i'm getting tired of an operating system that promised so much in the beggining and still does not deliver all the promisses. How i miss maemo and meego...

Feathers McGraw 2018-02-02 21:22
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Agreed, it's disappointing because I think having AlienDalvik is going to be a showstopper for some people who want to use SFOS on the new qwerty slider.

Maybe it's best as a separate goal, and we could do this a step as a time:
  • Step 1: chen produces the device, ships it with Android
  • Step 2: crowdfunding for SFOS port

Chen, you've alluded to the fact that Jolla have not been supportive so far. Is the problem that they don't see it as a worthwhile investment to port SFOS to the device for free, or is it something else? Or is it a question of how much money it would cost?

Kabouik 2018-02-03 05:28
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
As said at the time in the Youyota thread when you mentioned putting some sweat (and/or money and/or time) in supporting the Youyota project to help overcoming the difficulties, I was crossing my fingers that it wouldn't be at the cost of the Livermorium phone (feasibility, features, expectations of a timeline).

Now this is sad news to me. I did invest about 300€ in the Youyota tablet, I and I hope I will get it and most of all I hope the Youyota company can overcome the financial issues because I like what they try to achieve (even besides the tablet), but the tablet is a product from the past and even the official Jolla version is barely supported by Jolla or independent application developers. It's a nice project, but can only have a limited impact. The Livermorium could be a game changer but any significant sacrifice to the original plan may hinder its reach.

The delay is a non-issue, we are all impatient but are also all expecting delays. It's frustrating, but as long as we are not talking about many years, the device should sell relatively well among TMO members. The change of target OS, however, is something. And depending on what kind of delays we are talking, I don't think there will be a proper functional Linux alternative for a smartphone when the device is ready to hit the market. Sadly, however I'm sure I will love the hardware, I am afraid I may be out if the phone only comes with an official Android support (or any of its better and more open clones), but I do understand that the vast majority of people who would back the product in a crowdfunding campaign will actually expect something Androidish, so I understand the cut. AlienDalvik is clearly a showstopper (which is sad too, by the way).

Then, again, I did know that none of the things listed in the original plan were set in stone or promises. I know all features can change depending on a variety of constraints, funding, sup[plies, time, or any of the many ways to fail along the long chain from the idea to the mass production. There may be other reasons that already compromised Sailfish as one of the official OSes for this phone at an earlier point, and I would totally understand. However you seemed pretty enthusiastic about this double OS option so far, and now it seems that the Youyota did have a noticeable impact in that decision, which I think can be regretted if it's the major factor.

DrYak 2018-02-03 18:38
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pichlo (Post 1540772)
Playing the devil's advocate, I can think of quite a number of things:[list][*]An unnecessary cost increase for someone not needing them
On the other hand, the complain wasn't about a second 6" UHD screen (the most expensive part in a smartphone).

You'd be surprised how much a camera cost in a smartphone
HINT: there's a reason why smartphone camera for selfies has move away from a swivelling design (rotating the single camera between shooting and selfie position like on Sony Clié PDAs and some SDIO add-ons) to a the current popular dual-cam setup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pichlo (Post 1540772)
Occupying space that could be used by features I would use (e.g. more memory, an SD card slot, a second SIM slot...)
Which is completely a non-argument for anyone except maybe Apple and a few of its competitor who seem to be on a competition on who's going to make the thinnest phone possible with which you could cut cheese.

This project being a device with a physical keyboard (naturally thick), gaining 1mm at the detriment of standard ports (audio jack) wouldn't make sense.

On the other hand I am the kind of guys that PDA and smartphone have been already having a practical size since they aren't briefcase-sized anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pichlo (Post 1540772)
An extra feature to maintain, provide driver updates, etc.
That would be a valid argument against fingerprint. On the other hand they tend to be enormously useful in lots of modern apps (mostly banking, etc.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pichlo (Post 1540772)
An extra thing that could break, potentially affecting other things I would use
Again, luckily these are not moving parts (as the swivelling camera of old time) but mostly solid state with very few moving part (focus).

Quote:
Originally Posted by chenliangchen (Post 1540784)
- Typing on one screen still feels different than typing on physical keys
Thank you for understanding what we hate with on-screen keyboards.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chenliangchen (Post 1540785)
the progress also affected our view of having future official Sailfish OS collaboration.

Therefore, it might be to your disappointment, we will no longer seek Sailfish OS as the prime OS for this product.
Sad but well, you have your reasons.

meego_leenooks1 2018-02-03 20:13
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrYak (Post 1540819)
On the other hand, the complain wasn't about a second 6" UHD screen (the most expensive part in a smartphone).
How could it have two displays and a QWERTY? Flipping like this? https://cdn.wccftech.com/wp-content/...ip-phone-2.jpg

chenliangchen 2018-02-11 21:00
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Some progress has been made and a survey has been sent to some community members regarding this project. All the feedback is deeply appreciated.

Hint: No more crowdfunding in the future... (hopefully)

Dave999 2018-02-11 21:12
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chenliangchen (Post 1541058)
Some progress has been made and a survey has been sent to some community members regarding this project. All the feedback is deeply appreciated.

Hint: No more crowdfunding in the future... (hopefully)
No more crowdfunding? Never? Ever?

gerbick 2018-02-11 21:34
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chenliangchen (Post 1541058)
Hint: No more crowdfunding in the future... (hopefully)
This is good news. Can't wait to see the updates as they come.

pichlo 2018-02-12 08:34
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave999 (Post 1541059)
No more crowdfunding? Never? Ever?
Eternity is a very long time, Dave.

Dave999 2018-02-12 09:40
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pichlo (Post 1541068)
Eternity is a very long time, Dave.
I concur! That’s why we need to establish some kind of clarification.

Kabouik 2018-02-27 15:28
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
With the recent footage of Sailfish running on a Gemini or huge XA2 at the MWC, I can't help but thinking that the Lauta-revival project would be far superior as an open smartphone and handheld Linux device, thanks to its non-clamshell form factor.

I'm literally hammering F5 several times a day in the hope this thread gets a new post, and now I'm being weak begging for some news myself, like a hungry kitten begging food. https://forum-images.hardware.fr/images/perso/fight.gif

Sorry for those like me who get excited when they see this thread bumped, false alarm.

chenliangchen 2018-02-27 16:25
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Hey Kabouik, thanks for your support and passions on this project. It's happy to hear that there is still people looking forward to this device as much as myself do ;)

As you are aware that I'm no longer seeking for crowdfunding for this project, so there might not be regular updates as a general crowdfunding campaign.

But I can separately update to you offline, via Telegram or other means, if there is any good news.

It's not an easy journey but I have the faith to achieve it. :)

DrYak 2018-02-27 16:54
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Still interested in this class of devices, too.

(@Kbouik: And, although I used to be fan of the Psion back in the days, I also think that on a modern device, the possibility to use it as a regular phone once the keyboard is closed might make Chen's Lauta-revival-project a little more interesting that the Gemini).

Fellfrosch 2018-02-27 17:31
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrYak (Post 1541721)
Still interested in this class of devices, too.
...as probably many others in this forum do. Me included.

Kabouik 2018-02-27 17:32
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
@Chen, glad you like the support and don't take my impatience as pressure, which it is not. It just is impatience and anticipation.

I'd surely be happy to take any information you can throw at me, even what you think might be irrelevant or insignificant, it's always nice to see that the project is still breathing even when the steps are small.

In any case, keep up the good work. I saw that the Moto Mod is getting very good reception from the first reviews, that's good news.

@DrYak, yeah, same. I really do like the Gemini, and I would like to support it, but it is not really a convenient phone as the N810, N900 or N950 were. Plus I'm not even sure its big keypad is an advantage, as I don't see myself thumb-typing on this beast and I doubt regular typing would be convenient (but well, I haven't had the chance to try it). If there was no Lauta-revival in the air, I would probably be happy to buy a Gemini over a Pyra (although I prefer its openness, I dislike the form factor and gamepad) or GPD, but as I said, I can't help but thinking that Chen's device will better suit my needs if it comes true, so now even the Gemini would feel like a second - frustrating - device now.

Rotkaeqpchen 2018-02-27 17:44
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Logging in again after almost 8 years now :D

A couple of months ago I suggested you could get in touch with the guys at TCL Communication (those who have the BlackBerry and Alcatel brand).

May I ask what the status of your project is? I'd really love to see that happen someday. :)

Feathers McGraw 2018-02-27 18:14
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chenliangchen (Post 1541719)
But I can separately update to you offline, via Telegram or other means, if there is any good news.
Can you create a small mailing list if you can't share details on here? I'm following the project keenly, I expect the chenphone will be my next mobile device when this FP2 gives up!

chenliangchen 2018-02-27 21:45
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rotkaeqpchen (Post 1541727)
Logging in again after almost 8 years now :D

A couple of months ago I suggested you could get in touch with the guys at TCL Communication (those who have the BlackBerry and Alcatel brand).

May I ask what the status of your project is? I'd really love to see that happen someday. :)
Thank you for still hanging around after such a long time. This project is still running, we are trying to source the best provider and best possible solution with the resource we have in hand at the moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Feathers McGraw (Post 1541730)
Can you create a small mailing list if you can't share details on here? I'm following the project keenly, I expect the chenphone will be my next mobile device when this FP2 gives up!
Thank you! I will do it once there is more news to share with. ;)
FP2 should last long as it's self-fixable :D

Kabouik 2018-02-27 22:36
Re: The new QWERTY device project
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chenliangchen (Post 1541746)
FP2 should last long as it's self-fixable :D
Damn, Chen is going to use this as an excuse to delay the Lauta-revival now!


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