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Re: Mer v0.7 release, and community firmware contents discussion

Quote:

Originally Posted by SD69 (Post 261527)

Just to get clarity. There will be a version of Mer with closed bits from Nokia that will be licensed to NIT MAC addresses and distributed from maemo.org, and an open source version of Mer available for other devices?

Yes, - the hope is to make a community firmware image of Mer that contains the closed bits, downloadable in similar way to tablets-dev.nokia.com. This image would be the fully free Mer image plus closed source differentation (binaries, Nokia applications, etc). Mer itself will be open, both for tablets and other devices.

Re: Mer v0.7 release, and community firmware contents discussion

About the closed source items, this is a field where I think that less is more.

Re: Mer v0.7 release, and community firmware contents discussion

Quote:

Originally Posted by maacruz (Post 261568)

About the closed source items, this is a field where I think that less is more.

I think the N8x0 users who don't get Fremantle might disagree when they don't have:

Flash
Operator wizard
Handwriting recognition & word completion
Battery charging
...

Re: Mer v0.7 release, and community firmware contents discussion

EDIT: Don't reply to this post until you've read the replies below, thanks! ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stskeeps (Post 261400)

...we would like to ask the members of this forum a question, since we will be bringing Fremantle components to the N8x0(W), 770 devices. There are quite interesting discussions with Nokia going on about being able to provide community firmware images through maemo.org to Nokia tablet users, which could include closed source applications, drivers, etc. (see http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Community...e_distribution). Associated with that we have to provide a list of what packages/applications, bits and pieces of Diablo we would like to distribute as part of these images, for legal discussion.

We would then like to ask you users, what you would expect as part of these future firmware images, and to write why these ought to be part of the community firmware images - why are they important for you to have on your tablet.

Please restrict yourself to the closed source components as part of your answers. If you know of a proper open source replacement for a closed source component, you are welcome to write these as well so we can consider these for inclusion in the standard images. If they are OK to just to be downloadable through the Application Manager, note this as well.

Ok, I guess I wasn't very clear; I'll try again...

Why are we being asked to justify every closed-source component? I would think it would be a more simple case than that; can we have the closed source bits for Mer? Yes? Thanks!

It seems weird that Nokia is saying, "Yes, you can have closed source bits, but you have to work for it; you have to justify each one -- why do you need that one? And why do you need that one? Are you really, really sure you need that one? Show me how much you want it. Oh, come on, you can live without that one."

It seems obvious to me that the Mer team isn't asking for closed source bits because they're lazy; you guys are pouring a lot of sweat into this project. Anyone looking at the project can see that you're doing your best to find open source components wherever possible. So it seems kind of insulting to ask you to justify your need for each component. If there were good, easy-to-find open source replacements for these bits, wouldn't Nokia use them instead of developing closed-source versions?

I say you build Mer using as few closed bits as possible, but without losing any functionality found in Diablo. After you've built the thing, tell Nokia what you've got in there, and they can argue with you over the stuff you've got.

If anything, I'd like to see Nokia ask the Mer team, "Have you tried project x instead of our closed-source component y?" I'm pretty sure Nokia's developers looked at the open source offerings before they started in-house development, and the developers probably know all of the alternatives out there. They'd be your best bet to suggest an alternative.

Is Nokia worried that you could build a viable competitor to Maemo 5? They're afraid that they're handing you the weapons that will destroy them? :eek:

Naaahh... that's silly...

Or ... IS IT??? :confused: :eek: :D

Re: Mer v0.7 release, and community firmware contents discussion

Quote:

Originally Posted by qole (Post 261575)

Is Nokia worried that you could build a viable competitor to Maemo 5? They're afraid that they're handing you the weapons that will destroy them? :eek:

Naaahh... that's silly...

Or ... IS IT??? :confused: :eek: :D

Ignoring the rest of your post for the moment (which seems to have gone slightly off the reality wagon), Nokia sell devices. Mer uses lots of Maemo open source components.

Why would Mer reusing Nokia-shipped closed-source binaries for N8x0 releases "destroy them", or be a viable competitor to Maemo 5?

Re: Mer v0.7 release, and community firmware contents discussion

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaffa (Post 261570)

I think the N8x0 users who don't get Fremantle might disagree when they don't have:

Flash
Operator wizard
Handwriting recognition & word completion
Battery charging
...

Of those, Flash is the only one that needs additional closed components. There are ways to handle the Operator Wizard's role (possibly even ones that aren't broken by default, and can have their database updated when a problem is found with it), and several open-source handwriting input methods, and IIRC xvkbd can do completion, so the code's out there. And unless I'm mistaken, Mer already includes (i.e., steals from existing Maemo install) bme.

You didn't mention it, but I'd put Skype with Flash; those are the two things I can see that have substantial impact on end-users and don't have plausible replacement paths.

As interim components until we get some of those worked out, I'm not averse to other things, but I don't see them as very important.

Re: Mer v0.7 release, and community firmware contents discussion

@qole: It's easiest to understand the situation if you don't think of Nokia as one entity. I have little doubt that if the people working on Maemo were calling the shots we could get anything we wanted, but the issue is that *they* have to justify releasing closed source bits to *their* legal department. Then their legal department has to vet all of the request to make sure Nokia actually *does* own the IP rights to those pieces of software and that it doesn't have some other legal ramifications.

Now, *technically* we could just go ahead and cobble together a release using any Nokia closed source software we wanted to, but there are a couple good reasons why we won't. One of the big reasons is that it completely compromises our goals of working providing on a truly open source alternative distribution. This might also prevent people from being interested in contributing. I know *I* wouldn't contribute to something in such a questionable legal state. I can only imagine some others feel the same.

EDIT: I should emphasize as Stskeeps said further down, that they never asked us for justification. We asked you. :) We want to go with open source wherever it makes sense, so we want to find out specifically what functionality people care about the most.

-John

Re: Mer v0.7 release, and community firmware contents discussion

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaffa (Post 261579)

I do believe you've been Qoled. :p

Re: Mer v0.7 release, and community firmware contents discussion

Quote:

Originally Posted by qole (Post 261575)

Why are we being asked to justify every closed-source component? I would think it would be a more simple case than that; can we have the closed source bits for Mer? Yes? Thanks!

OK, I really have to defuse this one, sorry :) This is -me- asking, what we need to put our focus into looking at trying to make work in Mer. All Nokia has asked for, is a list[1]. No justifications, just what we think would be useful and what we would want to distribute, and to isolate early on as possible to see what would be possible to distribute, both of Nokia applications and 3rd party code.

They are doing us a huge favour through this opening, - allowing Mer on tablets to accelerate to Fremantle-level functionality so when Fremantle (and RX-51) comes out, N8x0(W) (and maybe even 770) will have quite similar functionality.

Why we're asking for reasoning, is to make it possible to prioritize our time in determining where it's even worth spending time on trying to integrating the closed source bits.

Quote:

I say you build Mer using as few closed bits as possible, but without losing any functionality found in Diablo. After you've built the thing, tell Nokia what you've got in there, and they can argue with you over the stuff you've got.

Yes, we are. The closed bits stuff is added value to make it a more viable backport of Fremantle functionality, so people doesn't have to sacrifice functionality of their tablets. For my sake I could live with HW interfacing closed source bits, but some people are more picky :)

Quote:

Anyone looking at the project can see that you're doing your best to find open source components wherever possible. So it seems kind of insulting to ask you to justify your need for each component. If there were good, easy-to-find open source replacements for these bits, wouldn't Nokia use them instead of developing closed-source versions?

The open source replacements question is to make us aware what things people would agree on would be good to include in base firmware images, or things that could be useful to spend time on integrating, - to see what people want and what they can live without.

Quote:

Is Nokia worried that you could build a viable competitor to Maemo 5? They're afraid that they're handing you the weapons that will destroy them? :eek:

On the other hand, Mer might just be the thing that could make the Maemo platform a more viable platform, and an even more powerful and useful one to developers and users :)

[1] http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/mae...ry/002946.html