Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

I was once scammed by jolla during the tablet and still not got my money even do that Iam bought everything put in the market.

Now, I have always thought I was supporting an INDEPENDENT os. But lately it looks like a Russian proxy(read: trojan horse) taking over the ship.

And that would be OK. After all it’s a business so money is needed. But then should announce that running a Russian OS.

But now to the part that worries me. I don’t really know if I support Putin or not while buying from jolla. And that is not an uncertainty I like to have when supporting something labeled: Independent!

I smell a scam.

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

Yeah, don't buy Jolla. Don't give your euros to the commies who eat children :D

PS Sometimes I wonder who's better at brainwashing - "free" western world or poor failing totalitarian states.

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

Then you should travel the World :D

it’s fine with US and Russian OSes. But don’t try to sell it as independent OSes. To me that’s a Scam.

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

and how is that relevant here? If anything, it just says to me to stay away from another paranoid country OS.

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

... and Jolla Ltd. (Hong Kong).

This conversation is running in the same circle, as the corresponding one on TJC did three weeks ago.
I tried to extract and summarise the hard information from the cloudy statements in a comment there.

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

For me I do not care about Jolla, totally disappointed what is happening... librem-5 will the exit on this.

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

Come telling me telegram is secure once its backend code is public domain.

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

Such as Sailfish :D

I would never have expected to agree with any Dave's post with the s-word in it, but that is precisely what I do now. This whole thing smells dodgy. Approach with caution.

@lantern, presumably the evil commies do not eat their own children. Even Sting said so.

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

Well according to this article consumer sales in Russia haven't gone that well. A rather harsh article.

https://sivtelegram.media/complete-f...rtphones/5336/

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

Not only harsh, but also poorly written. The last paragraph does not make any sense at all. "In a soup to the base"? "Dealers managed to sell at least smartphone"? WTF?

EDIT
Wow, every single article written by Jan Hartman, whoever he/she/it is. Looks 100% credible, innit?

They all look like they were written by a machine or at least in a language very different from English and then translated by a machine, without a human editor.

Flagfox says the site is based in Ukraine. That makes sense.

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

"The Siver Telegram is world newspaper."

Well, that makes it clear. All of those names listed sure seem legit to me! And that lone comment at the bottom must be some anti-Russian propaganda. For sure.

Edit: oh no, how did I miss the article being posted in the category 'Techno'! Unce unce unce unce...

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

There's a different flair to either approach. One is a flowery, yet heavy-handed approach that hides behind words like democracy, freedom and all of those PR based illusionary words that sound great but are not exactly fulfilling. The other is a ham-fisted, yet inclusive staccato speech filled with "us", "our", "we" which we've all come to know means "not us", "mine" and "us on top, not you on the bottom".

I won't feign apathy at these revelations or announcements. It concerns me quite a bit that my last "option" is quickly becoming something else rather quickly.

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

Regarding brainwashing... My other half and I grew up in different countries but both in the Soviet bloc and are both familiar with the commie propaganda about the rotten West, exploitation of fellow human beings and the like, and how the Socialism is the workers' nirvana.

Now we live in the sunny Western country and guess what? We have concluded that everything the commies told us about the West was true. Only the things they told us about themselves were not :)

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

Would you ever go back?

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

Ya @pichlo & @gerbick that's the truth indeed.

It really makes only marginal difference where one lives; if you happen to be in the top 1% you are extremely well off and if you are in the bottom 1% your life is absolute misery.

Only the amount and wellbeing of the middle masses differs a bit from one system to to another. That's the way it has always been I'm afraid :(
(however as an optimist I dont think it has to be that way forever)

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

this thread has lost the path to...to the truth behind this potential scam.

East, South, north or west, wait...west rhymes with best, who cares?,

What we need to know who is actually running jolla.

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

Go back where?

To the country of my origin? In an instant. But my other half refuses: she is from another country and has no ties with mine. I would not mind moving to hers but she does not want to.

To the Socialist times? No way! The Western system is far from perfect but still much better than anything Socialism can provide.

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

Freedom is the power of choice, right?

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

That's not what my Marxism-Leninism teachers told me. They said that freedom is the recognition of necessity. I kinda agree with that. As I do with another quote, completely different, politics is the art of the possible. It is amazing how many people do not understand that.

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

But to recognize necessity, you need to make choices, right?
I mean; freedom is smaller than necessity, in that it needs to be born from "within", whereas necessity is something that comes from outside. Freedom is born inside the necessity.

Its time to go to sleep. :confused:

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

Please stay! We need more critical thinkers.

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

Freedom of choice does not exist, it is an illusion at best.
Every human being is product of society and bound by convention, subject to limited choices.

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

That's how I understand the recognised necessity quote. As a recognition of the limits and the understanding that freedom does not mean, "you can do whatever you damn please", only "whatever you please within certain bounds". Once you accept that, you may be free even if you cannot do literally everything. Freedom is a subjective concept.

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

You won't be able to, and won't have fully accepted the fact, unless you freely choose to do so. If you undersand the world as is, it's because you choose to do so.

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

Well, the choice would suggest it's an understanding of the world as it is to you.

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

But Reality (with capital R) as such is the same for all.

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

I hate to disappoint you, but no, it isn't. Even without relativistic effects, reality depends on the frame of reference. Everyone's reality is different. Only religion claims there is One True Reality with a capital R.

EDIT
But when you think about it, such Reality is just yet another reality (small r) observed from yet another, subjective, frame of reference.

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

Yes reality can be misleading; and in that its the same for everyone (again);
but most importantly (and Einstein comes into play again) causality is the same for everyone. An apple cutted from a tree will still stay cutted from it no matter which frame of reference you look at it from. Also entropy increasing always is covariant w/r to any frame of reference :)

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

From the point of view of the worm living inside that apple, it looks more like the tree has been cut from the apple (a bit like the famous, though, sadly, probably apocryphal, 1950's British newspaper headline, "Fog in the Channel - continent cut off!").

I am reminded of that old joke about the guy who painted the sides of his car with different colours. When his puzzled friends asked him why, he replied it was to confuse eye witnesses in case of a collision. You may say the "objective reality" is that the car is painted with different colours. I say that "reality" is just as subjective as any other and requires a frame of reference inaccessible to the eye witnesses on the ground.

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

There’s only one true reality that we all see our own reality from. Our world’s building stone is relativity that are minifestet by our freedom of choice. Our choosing on how we want to see the reality we live in is how the reality is reflected to us. The thinking, choices we make, actions we take, our upbringing and so forth is what makes the grounds for our choices which reflects the reality we perceive and live in.
Therefore you can always change YOUR reality as it’s relative, though you can never change Reality as it just is and never anything else.

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

EDIT : if i can cut an apple from a tree (because it has a worm), that apple is then part of my (relative) reality. But it's not part of Reality cause it's relative?

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

The problem with percieving Reality is that it is very much dependent on the sensory input of the perciever; with our natural senses we can get thin slices of reality, often conflicting with each other and then construct from that an "inner reality model" that we percieve. This is not only limitation of our senses but also of our physical brain and psychological thought processes.

Using instruments we can get different sizes and shapes of Reality that can be compressed into our sensory input but it still is not the whole Reality-as-is, and we still are limited in the processing side.

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

Remember also we are part of reality too!

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

So - back to the topic - there are at least two "things" starting with capital R - Rostelecom and Reality :D

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

The apple with a worm is part of Reality though it won’t change Reality by cutting it down nor eat it or what ever you choose to do with it. The Apple would at one point stop existing as that particular apple anyway, though it’s energy will remain as part of Reality (Reality is non changeable). You just helped it along to its end as a mass/manifestation in our world, which is freedom of choice and relativity at play. The action will only change your reality from apple hanging on tree till now it doesn’t (the apple is still the same apple, thus Reality). Though your view on the apple might have changed from delicious to disposable (relativity in play).
Reality = Alpha and omega or all that is and is not. That entity can’t be changed and will stay as is for ever regardless of our doing to the mass inside the relative reality we live in, which Raelity only sets a frame for.

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

You're confusing 'causality is the same for everyone' with 'causality exists'. Hume already showed nearly three centuries ago that causality - as we interpret it - is purely a mental construct, and if we assume humans are equipped with mostly the same mental faculties, it's reasonable to assume 'causality' is the same for everyone. This leaves completely open the possibility of whether causality actually exists outside of our mental constructs (quantum mechanics would say it both does and doesn't at the same time, only after it's observed does a causal relation either exist or not), and if it does, whether our mental constructs are reflections of the actual causal processes or causal interactions, whether our mental constructs and actual causality function in different ways (our mental constructs could require counterfactual dependence, but perhaps actual causality doesn't). These questions concern metaphysicians to this day.

To return to the apple: it's only cut if you choose a frame of reference to observe it.

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

Yes. Back to the topic.

Someone once introduced me to the school of thought that says that everyone is right. If you think they are wrong, it does not mean they are. It merely means you have not yet found the point of view from which they are right.

So, from what point of view is the Russian takeover of Jolla good? :D

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

Right, so I'm just going to say it - I have a feeling many of us are thinking it but it's an uncomfortable thought and so it's gone mostly unspoken so far.

From the Kremlin's point of view, it's handy not to be too reliant on Apple/Google software, which is produced by companies based in NATO countries. Especially when you have very different strategic aims to those countries, and tensions are increasing because you:

• recently annexed part of another country
• "probably" either lost control of your stockpile of your favourite nerve agent (best case scenario) or explicitly sanctioned its use against citizens in a NATO country (worst case scenario)
• are propping up another regime that is using chemical weapons on its own people
• are (quite successfully) gaslighting citizens in your own country and other NATO countries about all of the above

If relations deteriorate further, you probably don't want to have your government ministers chatting about strategy using a Google handset.

As for whether we here can benefit from the extra money/development efforts resulting from Russia investing in SFOS... that's a separate question. Will SFOS remain a mostly open platform that the Russian gov just happens to use lots? Or will it become like Android - open core but with all kinds of shady telemetry and crap on top, this time with the telemetry handled by companies aligned with Russia instead of America.

NB: I don't see "Russians" as synonymous with "Russia", by which I mean the current Russian government.

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

I love this discussion guys. I'm a Facebook refusenik, but I've been wondering lately about trying out some of the alternatives. I have found that the quality of discussion is depressingly low. Maybe TMO is the only social media that I need, and it has been under my nose all this time ;)

As far as the nature of reality is concerned, I think that there is a core within which there is no scope for real debate. For example, I read somewhere that at the beginning of the Versailles treaty negotiations after the First World War, Georges Clemenceau said something like: "Whatever people say in the future about what happens here, no-one is going to assert that Belgium invaded Germany". The issue is realising when you are outside those limits, and you have to choose between different interpretations on the balance of evidence.

Off topic, and I don't care.... :cool:

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

Casuality is much, much more than a "mental construct". It's physically defined, in the relativity theory!
I'd recall another "mental construct", btw, which Galileo back in the days did not accept.