Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

What would make it "perfect" in portait mode? The column would be even more narrow as that's the variable width column in their layout. So then you would be back to zooming or changing the font size just as you could in landscape mode. The only difference is that you would have more vertical size, but that would come at the cost of column width also. Far from perfect IMO.

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

And that Texrat guy? Give him a raise.

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

Same reason why FBReader allows portrait mode. ;)

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

Did you even try the site?
Even my Palm in 480x320 portrait mode displays slashdot.org much better than the N800 in _any_ mode. Whatever you do in the N800's landscape mode you can't get that site to show more than a small amount of information at the time. In portrait mode you'll simply adjust it sideways until you have the articles screen filling the whole screen (with or without zoom as you prefer), then page down with the D-pad (if you have that one properly configured). Much much better than what's now possible.

Ah, and I don't understand what you mean by 'the cost of column width'. The whole point is that with portrait mode you adjust the N800 to the site's enforced column width. As a reader I don't care about the _other_ columns - all the information is in the central column.

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

Best suggestion EVER! :D

But on a serious note, ladies and germs... the biggest gripes about the tablets center on the missing enterprise support. Lack of anything other than the "N series aren't designed for that" responses can provide the impression that Nokia is ignoring that space entirely with this product line. Nokia's methodical (read: glacially slow in internet time) pace of development isn't helping the public perception of inaction.

I wish I could yack with you more about that, but with WOM spying on the thread... well... :p

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

Why not just install the Greasemonkey script that gets ride of the columns and header?

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

Portrait mode would be a fine 'option' in the browser menu. An internet tablet should at least have a browser that is the best and most powerful app on the device bar non. To be able to switch orientation may not be a top ability to some, but its little choices like that for the end user that counts. i personaly have come across websites where i wish i could just flip the view to enjoy it beter...e.g. webcomics. plus, its abit more comfortable holding it verticaly ovver long periods or just pulling it out of you pocket for a quick view....less chance of dropping it.

There certainly are lots of improvements to be made to the internet tablet (n800 in my case), but if nothing else then it should be the built in browser and rss reader. imagine the fluididity of the itouch's browser coupled with the immense power of mozilla or microb as you call it.
the minefield browser is a step in the right direction, and i hope it gets finished soon.

senior members, please understand its only feedback to help in the evolution of the platform and bring it more closer to mainstream, non-xterm users and spread the love of a potentialy wonderful device. open source? open up!! :D

just my two pence.

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

With a high-res screen like the N800's, I'd like to use portrait-mode web browsing even for this site. Of course, then they'd have to let it scale smaller than 80%... Seriously, why let me zoom in to 300% (Is there anyone who uses that?!) and only out to 80%?
Someone mentioned slashdot. Other sites following the same narrow-column-of-content scheme include:
The Washington Times
SteynOnline
... and many other news sites.
Engadget
The Corner on NRO
... and many other bloggish beasts.

and, rcadden, on ITOS2007, there was a setting for the touch pressure threshold for which keyboard. Just updating my N800 now, so I don't know about OS08 yet; look in the control panel. If it's still there, perhaps it will alleviate the thumpishness.

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

I agree that adding a Portrait mode should be an option. No reason to limit the user experience there IMO.

However, I think that for the most part the better option would be bringing most websites out of the imaginary Land of Unlimited Real (screen) Estate and reducing their layouts to tablet-friendly formats as much as practical and possible. Do commercial websites really need to be wider than 800 pixels? Do they really need to contain over 200 objects per page? Or can more designers get creative with the user experience they present, like I'm doing with www.jablet.net? Sure, I still have a lot of work to do (I'm still learning and experimenting) but I think both tablets and PCs can benefit from a return to basics.

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

I don't know how it would look, but the main reason is that I'm still in OS2007 (and will be until there's an updated OS2008) and Opera. But whichever way you look at it, introducing an option of switching between landscape and portrait mode can only be good.

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

OK... my $.02:

The *biggest* problem I've seen with the platform has been Nokia's strategy to try to provide everything without refining first. That would be the crux of why they themselves say it's not a consumer product yet, because many things are partially-implemented and many things require community solutions to complement what Nokia provides (e.g., a camera that only works with tablet-to-tablet calls). That's very different than if Nokia didn't provide these partially-implemented features at all, BTW, because it perpetuates a feeling of brokenness and incompleteness that wouldn't be there if Nokia had focused on a few, key applications and had slowly rolled in extra functionality later. Every point of incompleteness becomes what Henry Dreyfuss would call a "point of friction" where the experience is bad -- and since people remember bad experiences more than good ones (scientifically proven!), you end up with an unsatisfying product. [In case you don't recognize the argument, this is Apple's approach -- don't implement unless it's complete -- and it's been ridiculously successful in the last decade.]

The prime example: I don't complain about it being a bad PDA because there are no PIM apps. There's a philosophy that if I want those features, I use a web service, I install 3rd party software, or I buy something else. Done. And I'm cool with that.

Every time I find something exciting with it (e.g., reading reviews from Pitchfork and then downloading tracks from eMusic directly to the device) I face extremely basic features missing (e.g., no album art, files sorted out of order, song titles jumbled) that other devices have had solved for years. It makes the tablet the most extreme love/hate relationship I've ever had with a gadget. It's the saying "jack of all trades, master of none" made corporeal.

But seeing the course this device has held since the 770 (which I've also owned; e.g., that damn RSS reader) up until this OS2008 release, I don't have the confidence that Nokia is going to be able to take this where it needs to be anymore. It's still the best for what it is right now, which sadly says more about how others are failing than how Nokia is succeeding, and what it's really doing is making me extremely hungry to jump ship the moment a proper competitor appears.

It's not unsolvable, but 2008 *is* going to be the year of the MID, and they are going to be up in their armpits with direct competitors (e.g., the mylo 2 has touch/Skype/Flash for YouTube/etc.). I would certainly like Nokia & Maemo to survive it.

P.S. I too have the SD unmount problem, and it's something that never happened in OS2007 but did appear after flashing-without-restore.

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

It would be better if portrait mode was doen at the os-level, instead of each application duplicating that.

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

On the whole portrait thing.

I think it is important that Portrait mode be introduced at OS level. That way, it will more naturally get integrated into new/new version apps rather than simply being a nice to have.

As a very general rule I think I read somewhere, users tend to gain mostly from portrait for read only and landscape for edit.

Now with the N8xx having a 480 wide screen, Portrait really would be a grat addition.

Still not used the command prompt for anything (other than to see it's there) and still loving the N810 experiance (warts and all).

Zuber

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

Fyi, with Gizmo (which is pre-installed in OS2008, or at least shows up by default in the menus) you can easily make PC-to-Tablet (and vice versa) video calls.

Here's my demo video: http://www.tablet-guru.com/2007/11/g...video-calling/

And I did it routinely when I was in Amsterdam last month for Nokia World.

Just helping you get the most out of your tablet.

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

There are 2 basic approaches to experimentation:

1) Construct a hypothesis based on an observation, gather data, design an experiment incorporating all likely contributers and then start testing.

2) Follow up a random brain fart with chaotic flinging of related items to the wall and see what sticks.

Then there's #3, which is a hybrid: start with #1 and, thanks to serendipity, jump tracks to #2.

The first approach is that employed by most experimenters. The second is that employed by artists and mad scientists. :D

The third leads to quantum leaps like Post-It notes.

Nokia is known for religiously sticking to #1 in product development. However, it appears that while this is true hardware-wise for the tablets, software is following option 2 with occasional strikes of #3.

This needs to be better defined. IMO the best approach for a novel product like the tablets is use #1 as much as possible BUT allocate, say, 10% to 20% of your effort to #2. If option 2 efforts don't pan out or show promise quickly, kill them, absorb the lessons learned, and move on. Such efforts should always be tangential to the main effort, ie, #1 activity.

I *think* the project is close to achieving that. It just took many trials and missteps (many expected in fact) to get here. I feel confident that for the most part the effort has found its way, and I believe the N810 proves it. For those who can afford to be patient and persistent, there will definitely be rewarding experiences along with the frustration of being early adopters. For those who can't resist the allure of competitor products, you will be missed, but you're still validating the concept. ;)

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

Yes, you actually picked one I read daily. Generally using their RSS feeds to pick through articles though.

It sounds like your Palm might not be rendering the page width as a real browser (like Firefox, IE, etc) would. In portrait mode with a screen width of 320px or 480px, that center colum would squish down to be incrediably skinny. You simply wouldn't be able to "adjust it sideways until you have the articles screen filling the whole screen" if the browser was honoring that screen width when rendering. (That is unless Slashdot (specifically) just happed to have an article column width that came out to be 320px after a full crushing, which I guess is possible.) Either way, you can do something similar currenly:

http://www.pixelographer.com/slashdot.png

The point was that the central column on Slashdot is a variable width div, which proper broswers will crush down width-wise until Slashdot's forced minimum page width is reached. Go ahead, give it a shot in Firefox. Change your browser width to 480px and take a look at that central column. I think you'll get the idea. For most variable width sites like this, portrait mode won't help without additional browser options.

The type of behaviour you desire would only happen if you were in portrait mode and the browser was rendering pages with a viewport width larger then the actual screen width. Perhaps that's what your Palm is doing. Either that or slashdot just happens to crush down to the width you like on your Palm.

The point is portrait mode itself isn't some holy grail for page viewing, it takes more thought and optimization then that to make it useful for most sites. Sure I'd take the option (mainly for other apps) along with pretty much any enhancement, but I'd much rather see Nokia working on other items.

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

if your sd cards disappear for no reason you may have a defective sd card or n800. you should change sd cards and if the problem persists you should return/exchange the n800.

all my n800 problems are software related.

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

For me looks like someone in Nokia skipped extensive tests etap giving away "beta edition".

I am plagued with hardware/software problems: power enigma, decalibrating screen, remounting SD to ro mode.

Some thoughts after using N800+OS2007 for one month:

- one column menus should go away. scrolling menu is awkward in both modes: stylus and finger
- give option for interface: a) it should always behave as touched with stylus, b) as above but with finger, c) guess. The most infuriating thing about current behaviour (c in proposition) is that I never know which menu/keybord will pop up.

Give FM radio back! I remember from discussion several months ago on Slashdot about media-players. Devices targeted to USA are without FM radio because of Clear Channel domination thereee and total crap on airwaves there. But in Europe and other places FM radio still can give something interesting. Listening to my favorite stations on FM radio is my third option (after web-surfing and book-reading). Wi-Fi will never be popular enough to replace airwaves. Also listening to internet radio is burning battery like wildfire.

IMO with N810 Nokia hit formfactor perfectly. My N800 is just 1cm too big and this bump for camera/stylus is awkward. It's a pity big speakers had to go - during Christmas I saved the day with N800 because it played carols so much better then crappy laptop.

I *am* angry because some Nokia decisions/deeds were incredibly stupid - even suicidal. How many new users were disappointed with OS2008 Christmas debacle? How many don't even touch *any* Nokia product in future? But N8x0, and probably "N900" is just a stage. Exxx now is just investment for future. In two years it should be possible to buy really polished device. And it is highly possible it won't even be Nokia.

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

I think the point of portrait mode is to gain vertical size when column width is less important. I occasionally use portrait mode in Xpdf, and while I can't see myself using it too often in the browser, I'd love to have the option!

Options are great :)

The X server has a -screen option which let's us specify rotation, I wonder if some kind of hackish workaround could make it possible to gain portrait mode in all applications without any serious modification.

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

OS2008 on the N800:

1. FM radio is there, used it yesterday
2. Unfortunately, they DID choose a consistent option for the interface. The menus are always finger-friendly, but touching the screen gives you the stylus keyboard, while you can now press the center on the d-pad to get the finger-board. Bass ackwards, I know.

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

Then you're still stuck with 480 vertical pixels.

I want portrait mode so I can be lazier and scroll less :)

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

Hmmm, I'm not following. If the Greasemonkey script just leaves you with the resulting text content (column) that will fit to width, then I can't see how portrait would let you fit and "more" text on a screen then landscape. If anything landscape should fit the same (or possibly more!) content.

Given the same font size and vertical line spacing, portrait would have more (albeit sorter) lines of text, giving it additional opportunities for wasted space due to word wrap. No?

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

True, true. I was aware of the new (as of 10/29/07) Gizmo support for the camera. However, I think you're proving my point somewhat, since it took about 10 months between the release of the N800 and the *first* true communications extension of the camera beyond taking low-res photos.

It's compounded by the fact that for a device touted as having "Internet calling with web camera" (on Nseries.com), it still doesn't do either of the two most expected out-of-the-box experiences for that promise: Skype video, or the Flash camera APIs. Now, some fault lies with the magazines and reviewers not making this limitation clear (e.g., http://www.laptopmag.com/Review/Noki...net-Tablet.htm), but this more so a symptom of advertising features that do not hold up to user expectations and common practices, which I was originally commenting on.

And re: Texrat's comment -- Yeah, Nokia is being Nokia, which to American eyes looks slow and safe. But if you're Nokia, I'm sure that's preferable to the alternatives, since I just looked at the Gizmodo gallery (http://gizmodo.com/photogallery/intelumpcpepces) for the Intel MIDs at CES, and the reality is that most of them will fail, or at least languish. I think the 20% model sounds great, tho', it's reminiscent of Google's product development philosophy... yet it only makes me wonder why it's not here already even more, as betalabs.nokia.com seems to be serving that purpose just fine for the handsets.

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

Heh.. this instantly made me think of the iPhone not being able to send MMS messages. :D

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

I slightly deviated from N800 topic to 5-stage plan :)

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

Forgive me, I want to be helpful, but you're an idiot. I upgraded to OS2008 right away and don't have the problems you are having. Slashdot looks fine without any greasemonkey script. The articles are in one column and it's left justified (no portrait mode needed). Stop spreading disinformation and stop complaining and learn how to use your NIT, or do us all a favor and get rid of it or just stop talking like you know something about it.

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

Haw! Good one.

Although it's more like if you could only send pictures from your iPhone to other iPhones.

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

Hey, Frank. I just returned mine for cash. I'll be cruising for an iPaq 111 tonight, so should have in within a week. That's fine with me :0)
Sorry to hear about your issues. I'm hoping threads like this will wake Nokia up to the potential of selling many more of these devices, but the software and hardware needs to be prime-time first! That HTC is pretty nice. I'd take a look at the Raon Everun, it's also very good value for money and has a great battery life.

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

And that was the point to all this drivel. I sure hope Nokia can pull it all together and build on a really decent product to create a more ubiquitous platform. I liked the N800 despite it's faults. But the hassle to this network engineer was too much to bear. I'd rather spend my time reading technical documentation on the newest FreeBSD distro for dedicated firewall/VPN/Routing use...
Or possibly stirring the pot here in this forum? :eek:

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

- which points out that many of the folks posting here:

1. are simply consumers and don't know about computers

2. if familiar with computers, don't know anything about Linux

3. aren't familiar with the limitations of a pda/tablet and aren't aware of the 'net resources available... to whit:

http://slashdot.org/palm

or

Small Sites

- a simple google search will bring up many such resources...

- and for those who aren't thrilled with their Nokia Linux-based handhelds, well, that's OK too... i wasn't thrilled with my Palm PDA, my Agenda PDA, my 3COM Audrey...

- but i *love* my n800 (and ordered a second for a backup)...

- don't like the Nokia? get a Windows-based handheld and you might be happier (but i'd be willing you won't have as much fun)...

:-)

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

So softpoweroff now works in ITOS2008, yes?

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

Aciv, flames aren't allowed in this forum.

And TA-t3 is no idiot. I don't always agree with him, and don't always share his experiences, but the guy is sharp. You're new here, so you can almost be forgiven for not knowing him through more posts, as I do. Almost. It's just that it's not a good practice to start off alienating us old-timers. Read and learn.

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

So... you're just sticking around to bless us with your charm and wit?

:D

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

My thoughts exactly... I never did expect a good user experience browsing sites designed for a screen 10 to 12 times the size of the Tablets.
Especially @ the typical speeds of a cell phone connection. When I'm near WiFi, I'm usually near a desktop computer. Besides, no matter what the resolution is of a small screen, it still is like looking at the world through a dang soda straw.


What I did expect and do enjoy is browsing the "small sites" that I used to view through a cell phones 2" screen. Or, having the tablet near by me at home so I can nab some reference info off the net without having to stop what I'm doing (vegging in front of the tube, prepping food in the kitchen, sitting on the porch enjoying the evening, or working on something in the garage) and walk to the desktop.

The same goes for traveling. I don't need or want to lug a laptop, extra battery, charging and connection cables with me on a trip.
One tablet, one charger is all I need.

However, like you, in order for this to work for me I had to do some work first by spending a day or two collecting bookmarks to small and useful sites.

http://home.comcast.net/~fynspy/YoDude_PDA.htm

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

Tut tut! I did separate hardware and software in my description. ;)

And your frustration is well-received... at least by some of us who've been intimately involved with the tablets' development and production. As I've stated ad nauseum, I wish I could say more but I have this thing for continual paychecks. :D

Suffice to say that contrary to the more belligerent claims made here, lessons ARE being learned, and slowly incorporated. Unfortunately, the project can't be turned on a dime.

And this isn't directed at anyone in particular, but I'm gonna repeat something some may find insulting but truly is not meant that way: if you find out quickly that any tablet you buy is not fulfilling your expectations, and you don't share the thrillseeking gene that leads many of us to explore solutions on our own, then by all means return it for a refund and spare yourselves further aggravation. Life is too short to irritate yourself over an electronic device. Get your money back, and go spend it on something more immediately gratifying. :)

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

Actually he's supposedly here to teach Nokia (and us all) a groundbreaking lesson:

"Make the software/hardware better and you'll sell more products and have less customer conflict." :eek:

Once Nokia sees this, they will stop creating all this trouble for themselves, and we'll have this thread to thank for it. An incrediably noble cause when you think about it! :rolleyes:

Now if we only had a button to reward people for having an intuitive grasp of the obvious...

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

Crap. I think I need to update my resume...

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

Nah, I'll be gone soon enough. Unless you enjoy my prose?;)

Anyone?

Bueller?:o

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

Hey, don't let me chase you off. That's Karel's job.

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

Good show, Moonshine. At least I don't push away people who don't know much about the subject. My N800 experience turned into a beta test. That's only because the product just doesn't provide me with the kind of reliability I need in the current state of IT2kx. So what if I posted my own experience. That's what this forum is for- to improve upon the device, it's software, and the general user experience. It also helps people to decide what to buy. How do you think I decided on getting an N800? Reading in forums like this beforehand, for about two weeks. I did get a physically defective example. But the rest of the mess I've spoke about is what made me reconsider and go back to a more familiar device. I'll bash myself in the head after using the tiny screen. The skin on my lips will be chewed to ground beef consistency, working with a blasted poor start menu and the stylus will be maddening. Pecking away woody-woodpecker style, how fun. But the device will work every time with better battery life and much smaller form factor. I know dozens of professional techs and still I am the one who buys gadgets most or first. My opinion is valuable to them and less inclined people alike. But the real fact is that those people wouldn't settle for the N800 either. The people who have seen the device surely love it's style and GUI, and that includes me. I'm not a N800 hater, regardless of what you think.

So your reasoning leads me to believe that the device is supposed to be marketed to hardcore Linux users? You'd have me and many other people asking ourselves that question.