Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

Dude! Is that, like on the roadmap?

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

It's on my roadmap, tenderly written on a napkin in crayon. Dr. Ari's security detail won't let me get close enough to give it to him.

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

G - I have nothing but the most respect for the work you have done with Maemo Mapper, it is definately my most favorite software for this device for sure. My original point may have been lost. What I was trying to convey was that several high visibility apps (mapper, canola) have released newer versions not compatable with N770 - I did not say that mapper does not work on the 770 "the newest version does not work without additional tinkering". My statement was that as much as I am trying to learn Linux, it's kinda hard when everything is a moving target. That being said, I am unable to use the latest and greatest as a lot of linux newbies are because we don't have the skills and we are being left out. Trust me - Microsoft makes me feel left out everyday because I don't have VISTA. This is one reason why I decided to give linux a try, but I'm starting to understand that you can be left out here also, so that is frustrating to me.
BTW - don't ever go by "joined date" for this board, I've been lurking for quite some time - I only joined when I had a question that I could not find the answer to by using the search function.

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

Over here in the usa i see that nokia's is pushing hard to enter the market, all the stores sell nokia's devices i think that's cool but, just like any other place all the good stuff are on back order? anyway why the F**k is the 770 the same price as the n800????????????????????????????????????????????? can some one help me understand?

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

After reading all of the comments - I appologize to all of the programmers who think my anger is directed toward them. I really appreciate all of your efforts. I'm really angry at Nokia for releasing 3 devices within the past 5yrs with minimal support. I understand that you need to continue to make your software and it is easier for you on a better machine. I just wished Nokia had let the previous machines run their corse before releasing a new version for us to buy. As the guy above me said - they can't even keep their pricing structure up to date. Thanks Nokia - lesson learned.

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

A 12-month refresh cycle is pretty normal in consumer electronics, in fact, it's actually rather slow compared to some markets.

The "minimal support" is limited to the 770, the N800 is still supported 100%.

What, and still be stuck with the slow-*** 770 after 3 years? Thanks, but no thanks. Yes, not providing an immediate (official) upgrade to OS2007 for the 770 was a raw deal, but Nokia has learned their lesson there and there's work ongoing on OS2008HE. Support for the N800 has been promised through Diablo and may go beyond that since you can't support the N810 without supporting the N800.

Consumer electronics change very rapidly, Nokia is no different from any other manufacturer in the field (I don't see any major software updates for Palm devices :rolleyes:). Their big mistake was to treat the tablet market too much like the cellular market where nobody expects system updates. But, like I said before, I believe Nokia has learned its lesson here and future products will have official support for much longer than the 770.

Isn't the 770 EoL anyway?

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

I feel ya there. That was much my sentiment when replying earlier. More general yet needing to be clearly addressed at Nokia. Our community and the programmers that are here have been A+, as well showcased during Christmas and the repostory and download issues. The quality of programs I think surpasses many of the commercial mobile apps I have seen elsewhere. Canola2, Kagu,maemopad+,Quiver,etc etc are some really well thought out apps. Many I have yet to break through the surface of and use in depth.
I would say at my current level of use if they fail to move forward nicely with the N800, I could still find much good use with what is already available.

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

When I purchased my 770, I knew it wasn't 100% polished. I read the forums and determined it was good enough to use and I was willing to wait for further /software/ updates. At least the hardware wasn't going to be "obsoleted"... I didn't mind the 800's release, until it was announced that its new OS would be incompatible with the 770. Okay, I thought, at least we're on GNU/Linux, so source will be available for the community. Erm... that didn't happen. Due to legal issues, not all of the OS could be released. So, here I am, with a perfectly good piece of hardware, barely a year old (at the time) and no upgrade path. I couldn't even pay for an upgrade. (Maybe this is because Nokia knew that the number of 770's sold wouldn't support a software upgrade team?)

In contrast, my /nine/ year old Pentium II 350 Mhz PC runs the latest GNU/Linux SuSE 10.x release. It's my primary computer too.

I wouldn't have minded paying a fee to upgrade my 770's software. It's the expensive upgrade of hardware and software that I have problems with. The hardware is perfectly capable, why toss it?

I've been happy with my 770. I've taken it on every trip and used it when I couldn't get access to a terminal. I would just like some more stability and some upgraded web browsing capabilities, like Flash 9, just so my browser isn't behind my desktop, which I'll say again, is a /nine/ year old Pentium II 350 Mhz.

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

Been a while since I posted here. I wholeheartedly agree the 770 was definitely forgotten by Nokia. I can't comment about the rest of the community since frankly I have stopped looking at what is going on some time ago.

I started as an early adaptor and it wasn't easy getting a 770 in NZ when they were first released. I still remember how botched that release was. But I still decided to get one and when I did I made an effort to learn some Linux and even did a bit of hardware hacking. I used the 770 a lot at first. Web browsing, email, media playing and FBReader mainly. I was always hoping for some good PDA software but in the end gave up waiting. There was always something around but it was never quite finished. And that is basically my whole problem with the 770 now and the fact Nokia stopped supporting it. The whole device was never quite finished. The software was always a bit, well, beta. They basically stopped supporting a device they never bloody finished!

I do still use my 770 most days but only for simple web browsing and email. And it is still buggy as hell. I should say receiving email as I don't send email on it. That's too dodgy and I have lost too many messages painfully tapped out on the onscreen keyboard. The handwriting recognition never worked properly for me - never was as easy/quick to use as the original Palm grafitti I found. Actually I still use my old Palm V more than the 770 (for different uses obviously) because it just works. It is old, old tech but it does what it was designed to do and still does it well. The 770 never worked properly. It was almost there but just not quite. Mine still crashes or locks up in one way or another almost every day I use it. I did try the HE software but found that just gave a new set of bugs. Perhaps it is much better now? I don't imagine I will bother trying it to find out.

I don't watch media on it anymore. Converting the files was always a pain (although Urho Konttori's Media Converter was the single best app I came across for the 770 (which is kind of funny since it doesn't run ON the 770) and then the headphone socket broke. Another bug in the design. I did fix that by resoldering the connector but by then I was out of the habit of using it so never went back.

As I said I do still use my 770 but only at home. No longer do I carry it about with me. No longer do I look for exciting new apps to put on it (and reading here again I see there probably aren't many). And soon, in a few weeks, I think it will be time to retire it. I don't imagine it will get used much again like my old Palm V which is still useful. And I won't be upgrading to another Nokia Internet device in the near future. I am getting an Eee PC! And the first thing I am going to do is install XP on it :)

And actually, now I think of it I should be able to sync the Palm V to the Eee with the right adapters. That's kind of perverted!

Simon

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

General: 12 month refresh cycle? That's not what happened here. This was almost like releasing CD format and moving to DVD within 12 months and casually paying attention to CD for a short period before forgetting about it. You can stay bleeding edge man, I'm waiting for stage 5. :)

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

With small consumer electronics like these? Heck yeah! Look at mp3 players, cellphones, televisions, laptops, cameras, GPS navigators, blah blah blah—the list goes on. There are tons of devices with refresh cycles of the same length. It's nothing unusual. Especially considering the cellular market that Nokia is used to where released devices are pretty much a done deal.

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

Yes but most of those devices you mention actually work properly when they are released. The 770 was flawed when it was released and they stopped supporting it BEFORE they bothered to fix it. Upgrading in 12 months to get something better is fine. Being told in 12 months 'Oh, yeah that one you have is all broken but if you buy the next model it will be fixed' isn't.

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

Yeah, cellphones really are a "throwaway" market. It's pathetic to think how wasteful this industry is, but then partly it's because the consumers think the same way: phones dies, they go "YAY, we get to buy a brand-spankin' one with more bells and whistles, shop shop shop, just throw the broken one in the trash."

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

Don't mistake me, I'm not promoting Verizon as a charitable organization, but they DO have a box in every store to donate your old phones to battered women's shelters.

The idea is that they give the phones to women at risk and when the women decide enough is enough they can use the phones to call for help.

Over the past 10 years I've probably put 8 or 9 phones in that box (there are 4 phones on my plan).

But you're right, American culture is that once there's something shinier, what you have goes in the trash.

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

Huh??? Your logic is totally flawed, what exactly are you trying to argue? No kid that products get upgraded, but at least the previous product that was upgraded worked!

Simply put the OS on the 770 was never brought to a state that it should have been brought too in order to make the 770 a fully usable device for the masses. Instead they snubbed their noses at 770 users and told them good luck when releasing the N800. The only reason the 2007HE came out is because of user backlash and even then its called the "Hacker Edition" which really doesn't instill much confidence in the release and/or Nokia. Simply put Nokia for the most part abandon the 770 and its abandonment has nothing to do with natural product upgrades that take place; we all expect that, but at least fixed the product they had in the market place first rather then turning a blind eye!

Anyone who upgraded to the N800 from the 770 is foolish for supporting a company who doesn't support its existing customer base.

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

I don't even think most wait until it dies, more like "this phone looks soooooo out of date, I *need* a new one!" :rolleyes:

Re end-of-lined devices and waste: I think manufacturers should be legally obliged to release all information and source code on/before EOL date. There would patent problems no doubt but as e-waste (g-waste?) grows then something should be done.

Re 770, can't believe they eol'ed it so soon. It is still a very capable device and IMHO feels best in the hand out of the three (N810 comes close but is slippery). Me can't complain though as I got two at knock down price :D

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

I don't agree with what Nokia did, my attempt was simply to explain the potential logic behind their moves. Besides, if you think that all the devices I mentioned are all released as well-working products, you, sir, are mistaken. ;)

Meh, I got a lot of use out of my 770s (and still do), and I get a even more use out of my N800. Personally, I'm a happy customer.

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

I think that's what the problem is. We all bought computers in the mid 90's, took them home only to find out that the computer you just bought is obsolete and now on sale. Lesson learned. Smart people are not going to fall for that behavior again. Nokia needs to release a device that they plan on standing behind. They haven't stood behind any of these devices - all they did was release a new device and tell you "ohh this one is better". How many times are you going to buy their latest device?? - everyone must upgrade at some point, but this is crazy. Look at the release dates below:

N770 - NOVEMBER 2005 (damn well 2006)
N800 - 2007
N810 - 2007
This means that while they were selling you on how great the N800 was - they were already planning to sell something better!

Does this seem like they are standing behind their products or do they just want to make sure they sell more than one to anybody who falls for "ohh this one is better". With this track record, don't be in my place next year (or later this year) when they forget about your N800. Will you then buy the N810?

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

There is no logic behind their move. They don't look at the IT market as being viable to the core segment of their business, thus they don't care if they upset their current customer base. Then and even now I suspect the IT is nothing more then a test product to see if there are options that they can eventually incorporate into their cell phones such as using a Linux as a based OS or incorporating VoWLAN or VoIP with cellular voice. I wouldn't be surprised one bit if the N810 was the last of its product line. It clearly doesn't contribute much to the product line since, other then for a one sentence line, there wasn't any further mention in their financials as being a major contributor or significant product for the company; eventually someone at the top will kill the product off.

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

Except that in your example, each new generation doesn't obsolete the prior generation when it's released. MP3 players? I still have an old Rio 500 from 1999 that will work with MP3 files ripped or sold today. Cellphones? How long has it been since a network upgrade killed old cellphones? TVs? Next year's switch to digital TVs will obsolete old ones, unless they get a converter box... but that's been the first major format obsolescence since color TV came in in the 1960's. How many of the consumer electronics devices you name above follow the specific 770 situation, where the manufacturer killed off compatibility between generations?

Heck, how many years back does software compatibility go in the Palm lineup? I think current Palm software will run on units going at least as far back as the Tungsten T, which was a 2002 release...

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

+1

- that's my feeling as well... compared to the number of phones people buy, the IT line *has* to be small 'taters in Nokia's lineup, and at the whim of a corporate nod could go away at any time...

- but i also understand the angst, anguish, and disappointment echoed in the posts in this thread... ask US Sharp Zaurus SL-5500 owners how they feel (most of us went to OpenZaurus right after purchasing and opening the box of our units to augment and fix the 'official' software)... and btw, the Zaurus is *still* being actively supported by its community...

- we're all experienced consumers here, aren't we? it just makes sense to:

1. research all purchases (read all you can)

2. never buy version 1.0 (expect revisions and updates)

3. expect no support from the manufacturer after purchase (what if maemo.org goes away tomorrow?)

In several years, the non-maemo.org repositories will become *very* important to all of us! we need some *mirrors*!

4. expect to be more productive if it runs Linux (craft your own tools)

5. expect to be able to fix *some* of your own problems if it runs Linux ("Use the Source, Luke")

6. not expect open-source developments to 'scratch your itch' (free, but not free beer)

7. be amazed that a US$200 device can do so much!

- JMHO

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

is the zaurus community more active because you can have you own os?
why doesn't the 770 community build a new os from the ground up?

forgive my ignorance, as i am not one of the holy linux speakers as seen elsewhere on this forum :D

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

I am very much a newbie to Linux but there are so many Distros out there can we not install another I realize this has been thought of before and I assume its the hardware but is there not another Distro possibility? I am a N770 owner and sad, flash 9 would be fantastic.

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

You might recognize me as that crazy guy that wants to get Debian running on his N800. :D Well, I don't have a 770 so I have no way to test it, but there's no reason to think that the same thing won't be possible for the 770. Right now this is in the very early stages (I don't really want to call it beta yet), but I can currently boot Debian off an SD card, and get into X with the touchscreen working. Wifi and usb networking also work. On the TODO list is hardware buttons, power saving (some is working I think), and sound.

Why Debian? They have *recent* versions of libhildon1 and other core maemo stuff in their repositories and an active ARM EABI port. As time goes by, more maemo stuff will show up, I'm sure. I've already gotten a binary version of leafpad for chinook running on it with nothing but a tweak to it's dependencies.

Now, to make this work on the 770, I will need help! Just trying it and helping me troubleshoot it will go a long way towards getting the 770 supported. If no one helps, I don't think there will ever be a working, bootable version for the 770.

Links to Debian stuff:
thread: http://www.internettablettalk.com/fo...ghlight=debian
wiki page: http://www.internettablettalk.com/wi...p?title=Debian

(And here's a brain dump of other options for 770 owners: -OpenEmbedded has a system for building distros for embedded Linux systems. Poky Linux is built out of this.
-A Debian chroot will also get you some options...but it's kind of a waste when you only have 64MB of RAM.)

-John

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

Eh. A few years ago some people thought that it would all end with the 770 because it wasn't a financial, corporate success.

We're end users, gotta think like end users. It's all right to speculate but in the end, who cares what Nokia's corporate board is thinking right now?

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

I also don't think that the N810 will be the end of the line. Nokia already announced the next tablet (even if it's only a N800 or N810 with WiMAX).
You should keep in mind that internet tablets are not an important market at the moment. But this will be rapidly evolving and Nokia is looking for some strong ground in the post-cellphone era. They are more and more evolving towards an internet company. I think the tablets are an important playground for them.

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

. . . and they turned out to be an overwhelming success for Nokia!

The ITs aren't going anywhere soon.

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

Just speaking for myself, but if you plan on being successful, then you must sell to a broad base. I feel that Nokia is more concerned with fast money rather than long money. By releasing so many devices in such a short span while providing minimal support of the operation system they are basically flooding the market hoping you buy one of their devices, maybe two. This will get a lot of revenue, but if it continues more and more people will see through this practice and become disgruntled. Imagine if Apple kept releasing new Iphones instead of upgrading and supporting the current software - imagine the outcry. Well this is what Nokia is doing. Here we are with 3 different devices in 2 1/2 years, many differnt software versions, some work with some devices and not others. They are now going to release a 4th device soon - what will this device be compatable with? In my opinion I may one day buy an Ipod if they continue to show that they do stand behind their product, they do consider future growth of the product (if Nokia had considered future growth, we wouldn't have so many incompatable OS's out now). I do really like my device, but I feel that Nokia doesn't.

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

Nokia is experimenting and following the well-known "release-early, release-often" policy. This includes throwing out new devices with experimental features (webcam, FM-radio, great speakers, light-sensor, GPS, keyboard, ...). But selling to a broad base can be counter-productive. If the products aren't mainstream-ready (we all know that they're not yet ;) ), the mainstream people will remember to avoid the products.
Nokia sells the tablets to power users at the moment, and that's their current target audience for the tablets. Eventually there might also appear NITs in the E series (with PIM and all that stuff for enterprise users).

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

Pycage - Maybe you are right. I just wished that they made the first device powerful enough to handle future releases. Even if it meant a decrease in speed.

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

By selling a few hundred thousand tablets? Please. . . . It's a drop in the bucket compared to the mobile phone market. This definitely isn't about making a quick buck.

Flooding what market? The market that they pretty much created? And how? Releasing one device a year isn't "flooding" by any stretch of the term.

Minimal support? I seem to be receiving frequent and useful OS upgrades, and maemo.org is a huge resource for both developers and users in learning and distribution. Again, a few hundred thousand tablets is not revenue for Nokia.

Heck, this is exactly what Apple does (well, with the iPod—not enough historical data so far to make any argument on this point involving the iPhone as there's only one of them).

Er, well, we have four (well, you could make an argument for five) releases of the OS. OS2005 is entirely irrelevant, and if we consider the official releases only, then we're down to OS2006 and OS2008. That's two OS releases to worry about from Nokia's standpoint. With unofficial releases we're basically down to two again (OS2007HE and OS2008).

Old OS releases not running on newer hardware makes perfect sense, and the 770 incident, while unfortunate, isn't likely to be repeated. Work on OS2008HE is underway (so we'll probably end up with pretty good compatibility across at least three devices—probably five). Nokia has already said that the N800 will be good through at least Diablo (OS2009) (which wont be on the WiMAX tablet coming out soon).

Library breaks were necessary to keep the OS up to date with the upstream. It's unfortunate that it affects end-users so much, yet it is what it is, it's not something easily avoided.

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

Yes, I wish so too... :(
Perhaps we'll see 2008HE on the 770 one day... :D

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

I've got to agree with GeneralAntilles here, Nokia's approach to the tablets has been VERY restrained compared to their phone releases.

Nokia launch about 30 or 40 phone models a year including many smartphones, so even if you buy the latest Nokia phone you can bet that a newer model will be out within a week or two. This is what all phone makers do, it seems to be what the market wants, and if the iPhone takes off (ie. if it sells significantly more than the 0.5% market share it currently has) then Apple will be bringing out several models a year as well. The phone market is so fast moving because it sells more than all other electronic gadgets put together, so the time to recoup development costs on a particular model is much much shorter.

Nokia's tablets by comparison have had three models in two and a half years. This is very slow going by Nokia's standards, I don't think they're driving people into buying new devices at all.

If they wanted to force people into buying the latest tablet, they certainly wouldn't have issued OS 2008 for the N800 just as they were launching the N810, or bothered releasing Hacker Edition OS 2007 for the 770.

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

I read some of the posts here and I think waiting for the goodwill of Nokia is the wrong way. The worst what coult happen to the 770 are the Hacker Editions. They only block development of a free OS.

The solution is already in front of your nose. Currently I play with the debian image of apple2, which is fun. I use dual boot and can choose between "ebook mode" (maemo) and "all is possible mode" (debian) :).

@Johnx
Why not group together with Apple2 and others to make a debian rom for all devices. The worst what could happen is that Nokia pays you a large amount of money to stop :).
I think the community would support you also ...

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

How exactly does HE block it? By providing a choice? How is this different from OS2006? So I guess you'd like to limit people's choices so they need to pick free os (as the only choice)?

BTW, one can also help with Mamona.

Of course anyone is free to do what (s)he wants.

I've seen too much 'wasted' time on opie, gpe and whatever so my choice of wasting my time is collaborating with Maemo so the community around it grows and Nokia has reasons for opening it up even more. It is slow process but it is moving in right direction and we may end up with healthy open platform big enough to get into mainstream and have plenty of applications like palmos or windows mobile.

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

@fanoush: As much as I'm happy that Nokia continues to provide some support for the 770, I think that Modulok is technically right: If Nokia had decided to just drop the 770 on the floor when the N800 came out I think we would have seen 1) a lot *more* outrage and 2) more effort to get something besides ITOS on the 770. I don't know which way would have turned out better, but either way, it's useless speculating about "might have beens."

As for mamona: I looked at it but decided on Debian in the end, for three reasons:
1) I'm not interested in trying to put together a whole distribution from the ground up. It's way too much work for a small group of people to ever do effectively.
2) Debian is the closest match to ITOS in terms of package structure and naming conventions.
3) Other people are already bringing Maemo to Debian: http://wiki.debian.org/pkg-maemo

With that said, I *also* am committed to Maemo. I've owned a Zaurus 5500 and C1000* and have watched the transition from Sharp's software -> OPIE -> GPE and realize that it fractures communities to have so many different projects with so few devs. In most of the ways that matter Maemo seems "good enough." To me, getting Debian on the 770 seems like the shortest way to getting Maemo 4.x on the 770. And in the long run, getting Debian on the N8x0 seems like a good way to ensure that the tablets will be supported in one way or another as long as Debian armel is around (which should be quite a while...)

@Modulok: You're right. I should contact him. I would have sooner but he doesn't seem very active here after his initial post(s). :shrugs:

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

I still use maemo for some tasks because for these tasks I have no choice ... at the moment.

I personally think the HE is a bait on a hook. It makes developer think that everything is ok and there is no need to do something about an alternative OS. It shows user how nice the next OS version looks like but it is not fully compatible and not officially supported by nokia => to have fun buy a new device.

Johnx and Apple2 have shown that debian is running on the nokia 770 and the n800 (also n810?) what is more than nokia seems to be able to.
There is no need to start from scratch for every new ARM compatible device. Debian is running fast on the nokia 770 and surely will not slow down on a n800.

If you still believe that nokia is interested in building a free linux distribution then look how nokia is maximising its gain. You just have to read the latest news ...
If business runs as usual then we will see a a fork of QT sooner or later.

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

@Modulok: I believe "Hanlon's razor" applies here: "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." Nokia's forking from Debian is probably just an unfortunate result of Debian not having an armel port when Nokia started with ITOS, and a simple case of software diverging over time.
As someone who was previously tasked with getting Debian to fit in a 512MB flash drive for work (web kiosks) I can tell you that it is very, very easy to start diverging from your upstream distro when space becomes a problem. Fitting Maemo in 128MB of flash is quite an incredible feat, and obviously sacrifices were required along the way. I can tell you right now that my minimally functional Debian requires 550MB+ of flash. This can be reduced but it will never fit in the onboard NAND. Also, Debian is definitely using more memory than ITOS. This can be reduced but probably not solved entirely without making it something else besides Debian...
Also, I really do trust at least the Maemo team not to actively screw us over. They're not out to get you! Nokia as a whole probably doesn't care about us enough to be even bothering to use bait and switch tactics against us...
That being said, it *is* important not to be stuck in a "vendor lock-in" situation. But, let's concentrate on doing something productive rather than speculating on what Nokia might or might not be trying to accomplish.

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

Nope, the first ITOS was arm (not armel) and arm-Debian had been around for a while then and you even were able to install some Debian packages on the OS.

Re: 770 - the forgotten tablet
 

That's a word. I am currently productive :) ...
If you, Apple2 and perhaps others can manage to get "nearly" the same debian running on all the IT I will help finding bugs and possible solutions to get apps running. Then the whole community can contribute.