Re: Some things I don't understand
 

It appears as though maemo bugzilla is still appropriate. That's what "Severity: enhancement" is for. Heck, bug 277 requested a redesign of the 770's cover. The Nokia staff that monitor bugzilla went so far as to create a new "hardware" category for this bug, and according to the notes, forwarded it along to the appropriate person.

So, yes, they may dispute some bugs as requests that directly contradict their design standards, but they'll never know those designs aren't matching what people want if no one ever asks.

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

Perhaps, but I suspect it'll need an awful lot of protest. Take reordering browser bookmarks, for instance. A standard feature in most browsers since bookmarks were introduced, but why can't we do that? Because of the UI spec. The amount of energy that I'm gonna bet will be required to get the UI spec changed (or some sort of exemption made :rolleyes:) isn't really commensurate with the reasonability of a bug like this. It's way too much work for such a braindead bug.

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

Fonts...
No, with KDE you can easily add fonts. Thats problem you mentioned earlier. Nokia decided to use Linux but tried to hide that fact, tried so hard that it hidden some existing solutions from themselves

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

Did you read what I wrote? Let me quote it here for you with the important part emphasized:

KDE is hardly what one would describe as "immature". It has been around a lot longer (almost 10 years longer, in fact) than maemo/ITOS, and has had plenty of time to develop a good GUI font manager.

ITOS is still young (and, primarily, a mobile platform—how many cellphones or PDAs do you see with good GUI font management), a good GUI font manager will arrive with time. For now, sticking fonts in /home/user/.fonts/ and running fc-cache isn't particularly difficult.

This is a meaningless statement. :confused:

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

Well, that is the problem also for desktop version of Firefox/Mozilla and I hate it also there. I think primary reasons to change Internet engine were a) better compatibility with Internet applications like Google suite b) cut financial corners (free Mozilla vs. Opera)? Everyday usability stuff was far, far behind.

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

Sorry, misunderstood you: "immature Linux" vs "immature platform as Maemo".

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

Do agree with most of the things posted in the OP except for the video calling. Setup 2 googletalk accounts input those credentials into your two tablets. Get network access on both tablets goto >Contacts find your contact and select >internet call... the other tablet will ring, the N810 will automatically launch video, the N800 has to have the little camera pulled out. I use video chat over google with my girlfriend 3G tethering >wifi, works well and works flawlessly. Look into your network setting or something because it does work better than gizmo and is a native application.

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

Been running Opera for some time, but I remembered FF as having much more config options than microb. <shrug />

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

OK, you describe exactly what happened to us, except the automatic launching of video. We expected it. We tried different things in case we weren't triggering something that was being looked for. Nothing got us video.

It's a simple enough process, you can understand how thoroughly we experimented, having taken over an hour to try and re-try things.

Anyway, this particular grievance, I will mark up to "individual unit" problems or "the specific network we were trying on" or something else particular, and not general to all IT's.

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

Did the voice call do fine, but just the video failed? Or no connection working at all?

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

Playlists can be created, saved and used in the default MediaPlayer. A while back, zerojay gave a great walk-thru on doing just that.

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

GeneralAntilles is right (as ever) though, no amount of arguing can fix braindead design and UI spec issues.

#303 (12/24h clock choice) has been open for nearly 2.5 years - since the 770 was first released. It has 21 votes and 22 comments and still hasn't been fixed.

The problems so bad, I've had to set IT OS to show me an analogue clock and then use fiferboy's panel clock to show me the time in a format of my choosing when I want to quickly glance.

For all the talk of openness and the power of Bugzilla, it usually doesn't work for anything in IT OS other than clear bugs :-(

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

That's one example.

And I don't give up that easily.

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

Yes, and it was to prove that (un?)"popular" and long-standing issues don't always get prioritised over new features. Is there a corresponding counter-example of a UI spec-led issue which has been changed by popular vote?

I don't think I can be accused of giving up after 2.5 years and another 3000 bugs in Bugzilla! Rather, I think the maemo team have (on this issue); for example the community's not allowed the bug to be closed.

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

Andrew, I never said they always get fixed.

But never trying will usually ensure that they don't.

I also never accused you of giving up. No need to be defensive.

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

If I understood Tex, he meant he doesn't give up that easy [as giving up after one counter-example].
Not that he doesn't give up that easy [as A. Flegg does].

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

You did Benson, and thanks.

Maybe I need to quit using that expression (which I use a lot), and start saying "I don't give up very easily".

I admit to being stubborn to a fault. I suspect I'm on a maemo blacklist somewhere because of it. :D

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

Hey Roger...

http://www.internettablettalk.com/fo...ow-to+playlist

I guess you forgot? :)

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

I was working on an N800 manifesto similar to RogerS's screed when my laptop went out for repair, taking the document with it. I plan to finish it especially since I'd posted a long history of my search for a new PDA on my own site after walking away from Palm a few years ago. As someone who's used an N800 for 3 months now, here's my take on RogerS's comments and the ensuing fire it started.

-Constructing a playlist?
I look for 3rd party media players to do better, just like on the PC. How does Canola do? I haven't tried the latest betas, and I probably should, but I use my tablet for web and note-taking, nothing more because the email program is far too weak for my needs.

-PAN via Bluetooth?
Amen! Net access via bluetooth to anything should be ready to go out of the box! Isn't this a bluetooth standard feature anyone would want to do? Let me PAN link or whatever from laptops to N800, from phones to N800, heck from even a Bluetooth access point to N800!

-Show hidden files?
The reason why you want to do this is more important than the ability to do it, if you get my drift. If there's something that should be easy to do but requires you to dig into dot-directories to do it, it should be addressed in another way, right?

-Easily add fonts to the tablet?
I've never wanted to add fonts to my tablet and/or browser. Not on the tablet, not on the PC's I've viewed over the past 10 years or so. Why do you need to do this, really? We should be using the Liberation fonts to ensure a completely free device, right?
http://www.press.redhat.com/2007/05/...eration-fonts/

-Make it easy to be root?
I agree it should be built-in, but make it easy? Nope. If people have to open a command line to become root, I'm good with that. Now this as well could be speaking to a need external to becoming root. Maybe too many things require you to actually type things in as root -- that need should be raised separately. I'm sure you know what I mean.

-Face to face cam calls?
I didn't know this worked now. Is there a faq/wiki that tells new users all the great things their tablet can do like this?

-Why does upgrading erase everything?
I agree, but I'm happy to hear the next upgrade ends this pattern, so not an issue anymore if N800 units get the update.

-Why can't installs be done to a memory card?
I hear that. Just give me the option to install to a memory card and have an icon or something on the installer indicating where it is (main memory or memory card).

The most important thing to take away from these wants and desires is that our hearts are in the right place. We don't just want them for us, but we want them in place so we can extol the virtues of this handheld to all of our friends.

This handheld has the more raw potential than ANYTHING on the market today. You know it, RogerS knows it, I know it. When the software delivers (yay Firefox-based browser with Flash!, please continue to be updated!) it helps us evangelize it and be a showoff. We know lots of people craving a device like this, and we know it can be incredible.

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

Sooo you all say:
Guys at Nokia don't care about bugs.maemo.org
Instability of OS2008 cannot be fixed solely by fixing the bugs, and is much deeper than that.
UI specs is to blame.

Then I proclaim the N810 and OS2008 is an overhyped handicapped load of asss, in the same category as Halo 3 (was playing with group of friends just then).

The complaint in this thread is really about more features, but basic features are not even working properly, but did in previous version!!

I recommend upgrading to OS2007
OR
Hold out for Diablo (OS2009?), as Mr. Antilles claim it would have fixed these rather silly problems, that affects basic usability, which i'll list again:
Screen tap goes to random places / Especially when typing fast on full screen keyboard
One key input causing multiple repeats
High pressure sensitivity with no configuration
Finger tap not bringing up finger keyboard

AND recommend to others not to buy the N810, even the WIMAX version (same old long range unusable crepe, making microb not load any faster). Get the much cheaper N800 instead, or even an Ipod Touch, hey maybe Ubuntu mobile is around the corner? Google Android?

For N800/OS2007:
Install Canola 2 Beta for multimedia use (youtube as well).
Install Pidgin with LED notification for Instant Messenger use.
Email client lacking though, regardless of OS. Modest is unstable, compounded with the instability of OS2008.

OS2007 is not as pretty, but at least it can be USED, and used quite nicely without a stylus.

OS2008 is pretty, can be used but you are constantly stabbing your screen with your stylus while screaming "WTF!! SCROLL DAMN IT!, WHAT!? LOW POWER!? I JUST CHARGED IT!!"

As you can see I have a bitter experience with OS2008 on my N800, dunno about you guys with your N810. Can you even switch to OS2007?

I'm quite tired of these blogs encouraging people to vote the N810 for best mobile thing of the year and saying how wonderful it is.

I myself would like to encourage more threads, articles more critical of the N810 but of course not simply going "NOKIA SUX!" with nothing constructive to say. Which I haven't really seen much of really. So lemme give this a go.

"Nokia, you suck-XOR!isString(R0AR)! Learn to make a product that is AT LEAST AS GOOD AS the previous version!!"

Poor attempt really.

Back on track.
Then again, the N-series really is just Nokia 'playing' and experimenting with Linux and targeting a small demograph of Linux nerds is probably not very profitable anyway, who cares?

Thank you for reading my rather schizo post.

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

Nope. I added that Thanks! as soon as your useful post was pointed out to me. Which would be yesterday.

It's crazy though: everyone talks about how the only difference between the iPod and other MP3 players is that Apple took the time to make everything intuitive about its operation.

This is kind of the counter-example, I think — make it so different from how everything else works that no one even realizes the feature is there.

Thanks again for writing it up, btw.

Roger

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

Erm, no, that's not what was said. Of course Nokia guys pay attention to bugzilla, and the UI spec has nothing to do with any instability in OS2008. The UI spec only relates to, well, UI things (like the ordering of the browser bookmarks).

I'm not gonna address the rest of the post as it mostly seems to be just an insane rant (personally, I find OS2008 a lot better than OS2007).

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

I honestly cannot recall the last time I stabbed and/or cussed-out my screen.

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

I only quoted you on the Diablo. Whatever the correct explanation, the problems are real, and not being addressed.

Compare the responsiveness of OS2007 and OS2008. OS2007 is obviously faster and more stable. Shouldn't a newer version be at LEAST the same quality?

Do you own a N810? Maybe because of the physical keyboard, it makes the issues not as noticeable. If you have an N800, install OS2008 use for a couple of days without stylus, then install OS2007 and use without stylus as well. Switching back to OS2008 will probably start to annoy you, unless you bring out the stylus.

Have you seen my bug links? Touch goes to random places (with or without stylus). Finger keyboard does not launch on touch. Come on, these issues are not present in Os2007 but continues to exist in Os2008.

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

Our experiences differ.

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

And differ greatly, in my experience.

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

You sure your install was in good shape (sounds to me like you're either being hyperbolic to try and bolster your position or you had a corrupt internal card with swap enabled)? I've used all (release) version of ITOS rather extensively (more extensively than you, I'd guess), and OS2008 is definitely way better than the others.

No, I do not own an N810. My experience with OS2008 is almost exactly the opposite of yours. I find OS2008 to be much more finger-friendly than OS2007.

Yes, yes I have, and most of them (apparently) have been fixed in Diablo. So ranting about them now is kind of irrelevant and counter-productive.

By the way, zerojay, it's nice to see you hanging around a bit more again. ;)

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

FWIW, N800 here, and my experience is rather in line with Zero, Gadsby, and the General.

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

Fresh install for both OS2007 and OS2008 on N800. I've done numerous reflash because I just got tho N800 early this year and was really experimenting. Doesn't matter Whether my hardware is corrupt or not, because default fresh install of both OS, shows that OS2007 performs noticeably better and much snappier (for me, and im not the only one), finger virtual keyboard is quite a joy to use. Same can't be said for OS2008.

Strange how you all are having such an opposite experience to mine and others as well. That itself is already a problem.

This thread lists all the issues people are facing with OS2008.
http://www.internettablettalk.com/fo...t=16365&page=3
has more experiences aligned with mine.

I'm telling anyone right now, there are serious problems that hampers OS2008's usability. I'm not the only one experiencing it, look at the bug reports, and votes and the thread above.

Ignoring the problems I present and calling me crazy is also counter-productive. Saying simply 'works for me' does not help either. Saying the bugs do not matter because Diablo won't have them, is also irrelevant (for now), because it's not out yet is it? And won't be for quite a while. Many feels that OS2008 is a step backwards, as evident in the bug reports and in discussions such as above.

Admitting to the bugs I presented:
Screen tap goes to random places / Especially when typing fast on full screen keyboard
One key input causing multiple repeats by touch input of cos
Finger tap not bringing up finger keyboard

and saying "OS2008 to be much more finger-friendly than OS2007" is contradictive, because OS2007 do not have such problems.

I'm however, a bit relieved that Diablo will have these issues fixed so thanks for that info GeneralAntilles , but as I said it's not out, and the issues still persist. I will patiently wait for Diablo, while making a little noise here and there about OS2008.

Simply put, i'm not making things up. You don't have a problem? Good for you**, I really am, but don't say we are crazy and pretend the problem does not exist. Please accept some criticism, present it, so we make doubly sure, the next upgrade will have these fixed.

The N810 WiMax talked about improved stuff. Gonna see what's up.

** not only pointing at you GeneralAntilles, I take your quotes, because it's more helpful than others.

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

It's unfortunate that you are having that experience, but it looks to me that for the most part OS2008 has improved users' experiences. It certainly has for me. The latest official update (51-3) made a huge positive difference... much better for me than any release of OS2007.

I have to believe that the problem is not necessarily OS2008 alone but that there are other contributing factors. That makes your first statement above overly broad although I realize it's written from your personal perspective. And it was your general "ranting" approach with which some have taken issue. Probably the result of frustration, but to readers it becomes mostly noise and thus difficult with which to relate. That, combined with missing detail, is counter-productive to helping you.

There are people here, such as GeneralAntilles, that could very likely help resolve your issues. Give it a shot.

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

Well i would like to add the most irritating thing after the os2008 upgrade was the keyboard. Especially the thumb keyboard. In os2007 it worked wonderfully and i could almost type very fast. But os2008 thumb keyboard registers double presses, auto pressing of some other character near the target letter. Just try typing very fast with the thumb keyboard and youll know how irritating that can be.
I installled the 51-3 version even though i did not need to install it ,,,,, thinking that the keyboard bug would be fixed. But alas. What is so frustrating is that this feature worked in the earlier os .... but is broken now.

Other than that os2008 is a lot better than 2007

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

I suspect the source of reports like robin's is the common (and misguided) perception that a few buggy things indicate an overall bad experience. Highly selective use often exacerbates that perception, whereas certain exclusive use can produce the opposite. For instance, I have not used the thumbboard in months so I have not seen any bugs related to it. In fact as of today after installing 51-3 the only significant problem I've seen is Maps crashing (at very bad times too). Other than that and some occasional poor responsiveness from microb OS2008 is running very nicely for me. I don't say that to make robin or anyone else feel bad, but to offer additional perspective. That actually can help in troubleshooting. ;)

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

51-3 is the latest right? I did not upgrade to that because, someone firmly said it ONLY fixes the startup issue, nothing else. What other improvements are there? Is the 'huge positive' difference comparing with the previous 50-2 ? State those improvements please.

Stating my statement is overly broad, is overly broad to me. What statement specifically?

Understandable. Point taken.

I presented bug reports, threads discussing those issues. What more do you want? Maybe I don't get what you mean.

The problems I stated are bugs, or deeper than that. It would seem only the guys (girls?) at Nokia could fix it for OS2008, but Antilles claims it's already fixed, but only in Diablo, which is good to know but does not fix something that I wanna use <b>now</b>.

Point i'm trying to make is, there are issues which exists for many people which really hampers usability. Maybe it doesn't affect you and others, but it affects me and others. So I am trying to bring attention to this, telling my side of the story, showing that OS2008 ain't that great. Cos there's nothing else we can do in this forum.

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

Robin,

I don't have time to provide you with the level of detail you're asking for above (ironically), but some bullets:

-I had skipped 50-2, so I have no direct experience with it, sorry
-By first statement I meant first statement that I quoted
-Referring to bug reports is essentially an offhand explanation of problems IMO, but I won't argue that point
-Given that some are not experiencing those bugs, I would think some of us can help you. Often bugs do not manifest in a vacuum but have underlying, and commonly hidden, causal factors

I understand you are trying to tell the story for you and on behalf of others, but you must understand yourself that your approach can lead to entrenchment by those who have seen the opposite of your experience. Asking for help from those reporting a better experience than yours works much better here than tossing out blanket statements of unusability.

I won't deny you your frustration, especially given that I guarantee you mine has been much higher than that of most here due to my direct (prior) involvement with the tablet program. Just suggesting you try another tack. ;)

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

Have you tried recalibrating your screen using very light, precise taps? Some people have reported substantial improvements in the behaviour of the touch screen after doing so.

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

Either light or heavy taps, apparently depending on unit-to-unit hardware variation; I need light taps (which is what I did naturally) and experienced trouble when I tried heavy taps, but there are some who swear heavy taps cure their troubles.

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

I've been trying acupuncture, and it beats a heavy tap hands down.

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

Sorry sachin007, im gonna quote you poorly but as accurately as possible.

Sachin007 says along the lines of "OS2007's thumb keyboard is wonderful but OS2008's sucks. But other than that OS2008 is a lot better than 2007." That must mean his conclusion negates all the problems that was brought up!!

Key input, how is that considered exclusive use? No misguided perception here. If the OS is giving me a hard time inputing text, then it's pretty bad. But you see, I think you all STILL DO NOT UNDERSTAND. Here it is alright, in the next paragraph will say the reason that triggered my outburst against OS2008.

OS2007 does not have ANY of the problems I brought up, why does OS2008 even have it in the first place?! Furthermore, it is a BASIC feature (key input). It worked before, why not anymore? Why the sacrifice? Is that considered improvement?

You talking about the virtual thumbboard or physical on the N810. Anyway you should give the virtual thumbboard a go, and if possible, try the OS2007's virtual thumbboard as well. Do you use the stylus a lot? Well try not to use it at all, not even your finger nails (works great in OS2007). Maybe then will you understand my annoyance with OS2008. Just cos you don't use it, doesn't mean the problem is not there.

You see I understand if Maps and Microb is unstable, and will not really complain because they are COMPLETELY NEW software addition to the OS. I will start complaining if they continue to suck down the line, like what im doing with OS2008 from OS2007. The touch key input problems are already working well on OS2007, it should be familiar territory to be improved on the OS2008, but not.

No it's all good. The bad feelings are all directed at OS2008.

Please do help but I believe people find it easier to just say "No problem here, you are crazy."

Understood.

They can't help if they have a better experience. They need to understand the bad experience first and accept it. GeneralAntilles has already informed us that Diablo will have these problems fixed. So we gotta wait for OS2009, while there is OS2008 with touch going random places.

Blanket statement? Again, what more do you want?
http://www.internettablettalk.com/fo...t=16365&page=3

Screen tap goes to random places / Especially when typing fast on full screen keyboard
One key input causing multiple repeats
High pressure sensitivity with no configuration
Finger tap not bringing up finger keyboard

*EDIT*oh yeah shorter battery life span in OS2008 */EDIT*

I could search through the forum for more threads and bugs.maemo.org . What else do you want me to do? Please do tell.

So if no one cares about bugs.maemo.org , and no one cares about people posting problems in forums. Then I guess who cares then. I guess there's no problem then.

Damn, all this typing for nothing. I'll just keep using the eventually obseleted OS2007 until OS2009 then, assuming that I can see the future and problems will be fixed. Oh what am I talking about? What problem? N810 OS2008 WIMAX ULTIMATE COLLECTORS EDITION!! WOOOO!!! Here's my $500 with that promotional discount, Nokia, you are awesome!! OPEN SOURCE!! (with some proprietary components) WOOOO!!!

Man posting on forums is time consuming. Got carried away again.

SUMMARY:
OS2007 have very good virtual thumb keyboard (good skin detection). Can type much faster with no/very few mistype than Ipod Touch . Newer version should be even better then! Wrong! OS2008 is difficult to use without stylus or finger nail or physical keyboard. Imagine N810 with a prettier OS2007 with good virtual keyboard, with no physical keyboard, how thin would it be.

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

Uh, no, you have to wait a couple months—at most. Diablo is maemo 4.1, i.e. the next OS2008 update.

It's stuff like this that makes people dismiss you.

Re: Some things I don't understand
 

Good to know. I look forward to it. Is that the same as what the WiMax version is based on? (EDIT: Found out, yes it is) If so, and your claim of all my problems being resolved and assuming no other silly basic functionality gets broken, awesome, and I take back what I say of boycotting the N810 WME. Until then, the issue continues to exist, that shouldn't have existed in the first place.

Screen tap goes to random places / Especially when typing fast on full screen keyboard
One key input causing multiple repeats
High pressure sensitivity with no configuration
Finger tap not bringing up finger keyboard

If you don't hear from me when Diablo is released, it's a good sign that Diablo is good, better or awesome. For me anyway.

I was trying to convey a message, which is the impression I get from this forum, it is along the lines of 'undying devotion' to something and dismission of criticism, like hardcore Apple fans. (Not being negative to Apple, they make both good and bad stuff, like any company)

Sure I don't mind if you dismiss the last 1/4 of my post, it's rant. But the first 3/4 of most my posts provided good detail and criticism and my reasoning about my hate towards OS2008. If you choose to dismiss everything based only on the last 1/4 of my obviously non/semi serious rant, well your choice.

Anyway my posts are not that relevant to this thread anyway. I'll leave it at that.

Sticky suggestion : Known OS2008 known issues

Just to add more reasoning for my firery hate for OS2008 also stems from my annoyances of Ubuntu Linux releases.

Version:
6.06/6.10 , detects scanner.
7.04, scanner detection breaks, due to suspending improvement.
7.04, LIES! no suspend improvement at all. Power saving on Linux continues to suck.
7.04, compiled suspend2, work awesome for hibernation.
7.10, f*ckin suspend2 does not work, hours wasted compiling.
7.10, K3b burning app cannot burn unless remember-settings is disabled.

God damn ******ed. Looking forward to 8.04 though.