Re: Boot in 5 seconds
 

Thanks!

One thing that really stands out at first look is that 8" sleep in /etc/init.d/hildon-desktop! Anyone know what it's for?

Re: Boot in 5 seconds
 

I don't think that punishing someone who has the initiative to post a bug report is the way to go. Making suggestions to improve the report is one thing; threatening someone that their report will be deleted unless they have even more initiative is another.

This always reminds me of elementary school "safties", who were given titles so they could stop kids from running in the hallways. Give some people titles and they become megalomaniacs, no matter how trivial the title.

Re: Boot in 5 seconds
 

Can we let the personal attacks drop and get back on topic?

Re: Boot in 5 seconds
 

People who make personal attacks always want responses to them to stop, but sure, I'll stop mine, thanks for asking!

Re: Boot in 5 seconds
 

Bugzilla reports are never deleted. Period.

I suggest you read up on the life cycle of a bug before you spout off. The reporter is free to reopen their bug anytime if they believe that the resolution was inappropriate or when they've improved the bug to the point where it's no longer INVALID.

If the reporter has specific technical suggestions that could be implemented, then bring them on! Specific bugs with a reasonable scope are welcome, generic bugs that specify broad, arbitrary goals are not.

"Make tablet boot in 5 seconds" might as well be "Make Modest super fast", "Make MicroB load pages in under 2 seconds" or really simply, "Make it fast". Put yourself in a developer's shoes, do any of these reports help you make the the software better or faster? No. They're not specific, they're not useful. They basically amount to so much spam.

Thus, INVALID.

Re: Boot in 5 seconds
 

Is that some sort of tacit accusation?

Do you have something snarky to say to me that might be more appropriately conveyed through PM?

Re: Boot in 5 seconds
 

No, it is a comment about people who make personal attacks, not about you. I didn't see any attacks by you.

Re: Boot in 5 seconds
 

Ah, EU. Interesting.

Well, there's always train/plane/car chargers. ;)

Titles and personal attacks. Do you want to be more specific? :)

Re: Boot in 5 seconds
 

I have a solution. Give the user the impression of starting more quickly! Simply take a snapshot of the display before shutting down, and during boot use it as a splash screen.
you may laugh, but that's been done.

Re: Boot in 5 seconds
 

My tablet takes 55 seconds to boot. 33 would be nice.

But honestly, if you're booting much, then you're (a) a hacker/developer who keeps crashing her tablet or needs to boot to another partition, (b) running your tablet till the battery is dead, or (c) missing the point of the Internet Tablet.

Oh and don't you dare make my kernel monolithic. I want my modules!

(By the way, any idea when the open source wlan driver will be usable? Any work being done on it?)

Re: Boot in 5 seconds
 

I don't think I can be more specific without violating Texrat's sensible suggestion that we stop personal-attacking in this thread that has another sensible topic. However, I think you know that I don't think you are a particularly adroit diplomat.

Re: Boot in 5 seconds
 

Thanks. I was just surprised and confused because your reply directly followed mine (which asked for civility), and linked people asking for civility with making personal attacks...

Re: Boot in 5 seconds
 

Something that Sony was showcasing a couple of years ago is a bit on that line, although more radical: create a pre-initialised image to load at boot, just like if the device was doing a restore after a suspend-to-disk.

This works well for something like a camera where the set of apps to have running when powering on is well known and limited.

However there could be some hybrid implementation where the basic system is saved in the image and a list of running apps is saved before switching off.

But i still stand for my point that one should _very_seldom_ have to reboot/power_on.

Re: Boot in 5 seconds
 

I don't understand. If I leave my house I want to take my NIT with me. Do you follow? Now, I also want my NIT full-powered so I can use it as long as possible. Got it? I assume this is a common usage. Now, how does one achieve this? Lets assume the user plugs the power in the NIT at evening to charge it. Before she goes to bed she unplugs it. The NIT is at full capacity. Next morning, you take it with you, unpowered. At the moment you start using it on your travel you want to boot it. Do you want to wait 1 minute then? No. You want to have it on as quick as possible. Do you want to have the boot process using a lot of power? No. You want to have it use as little as possible. However, fact is, in these situations you boot your NIT every day you use it.

solution: do not turn it off

Re: Boot in 5 seconds
 

Wishful thinking.
I had to reboot 4 times today, 3 of them because hildon-desktop hangs under certain circumstances and leaves me no other option if I'm not lucky enough to be on a xterm in that moment. The last time to swap mmc (I boot from mmc) to access it with an external device.

Re: Boot in 5 seconds
 

Set up this:
http://www.internettablettalk.com/fo...92&postcount=3

It adds something to the power menu that can at least start up xterm allowing you to restart hildon-desktop if the need to do so arises.

Re: Boot in 5 seconds
 

Well, maacruz, you fit into category (a) of my list of people who reboot their tablet frequently ("a hacker/developer who keeps crashing her tablet or needs to boot to another partition"). You are not the norm, and waiting for the tablet to boot is the price you pay for messing about with advanced stuff ;). It's a price I'm willing to pay.

Re: Boot in 5 seconds
 

Do not power off your tablet at night to charge it. It is more wasteful of energy. If you "power off" your tablet, then plug it into the wall, the tablet screen lights up again and says "Charging"... The screen, at least on my N800, never turns off!

If you want to charge-and-go, and have a fully charged tablet in the morning, go into "offline" mode, lock your screen and keys, then plug in your charger. The screen will go black, there will be no network activity, and you will have a fully-charged tablet in the morning. It will stay fully-charged, even after unplugging, for many hours in this state. Then, when you want to use the tablet, just hit the unlock key(s), and your screen comes alive, and your tablet is ready to go!

If you are a hacker, and you start a custom set of services that might impact the "idle mode" power consumption, you should make a script that shuts down these services when you want to go into "deep idle".

These tablets have astonishing power-saving capabilities. I ran my tablet as a GPS tracker in the wilderness for three days, with only two sets of 4 AA batteries to charge it at night. I wasted the first set of AA batteries trying to charge my tablet when it was "off". The screen's backlight, on for 8 hours solid while the tablet was supposedly "off", drained the batteries quite effectively. The second set was much more useful, because I charged while the tablet was "on", and the screen was off.

Re: Boot in 5 seconds
 

I said 'put the device off, let the device charge'. Not 'let the device charge and then put the power off'. I see the point of offline mode though. I'll try to see how I like it.

Re: Boot in 5 seconds
 

Booting the tablet wastes as much battery as several days of standby. You gain nothing by switching off the tablet.

Re: Boot in 5 seconds
 

Listen to qole, he got it exactly right. So did pycage. There's no reason to ever turn the N8x0 off, unless you're putting it in storage or something. In that case you would be better off if you charged the battery half way, remove the battery from the tablet, wrap it in plastic and put in in a fridge.

Re: Boot in 5 seconds
 

I agree with everything but the 'fridge part. It is false that putting batteries in the 'fridge is good for them.

Re: Boot in 5 seconds
 

"Batteries" is a bit non-specific. Alkalines, sure, but lithium-ions, no. Li-ion degrades faster at higher temperatures, keeping them cool (and at around 40%) slows the rate of degredation.

Re: Boot in 5 seconds
 

I got that information from what's usually described as a very reliable source: http://batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm
http://batteryuniversity.com/images/parttwo-34.gif

Re: Boot in 5 seconds
 

Okay. I don't want to start a feud, especially since Ryan has entered, but....

The batteries in the Nokia N800 / N810 have a tiny circuit board with electronic parts mounted on it. What is bad is the humidity in the refrigerator is at 100%. This is bad for any electronic circuit.

I know the batteryuniversity.com has that chart but it is referring to individual lithium cells (or an array) but not the circuit boards that smart batteries have in them.

I advise against anyone putting a laptop, cellphone, Nokia N8x0 or any smart Lithium Ion battery pack in a refrigerator or a freezer. The humidity will attack the circuit board in the pack.

Duracell's website advises against placing alkaline cells in the 'fridge as well. It really doesn't do much, and the humidity isn't good for them either, even though there isn't circuitry involved. Common alkaline batteries have a shelf life at room temperature of between 5 to 7 years. No refrigeration necessary.

http://www.duracell.com/oem/primary/...kshelflife.asp

The data at the link above (Duracell) recommends Alkaline cells be stored between 50 F and 77 F, with no more than 65% Relative Humidity. A refrigerator exceeds the humidity spec. and also is colder than 50 F. Bottom line is, don't bother putting any of your batteries in a cold, damp environment like a 'fridge. Just keep your batteries at or somewhat below room temperature, in low humidity.

Lithium ion long term storage starting at 40-50% charge is good advise.

As far as booting the N8x0 quicker, just don't turn it off, and boot time isn't factor. I leave mine powered up all the time. I lock the screen and keys before I go out of the house with it.

Re: Boot in 5 seconds
 

How about changing batteries? I change batteries about once a day. Any suggestions on how to change batteries without rebooting?

Re: Boot in 5 seconds
 

Yeah, don't freeze the batteries, that won't do any good. The question about the humidity is a good one, that was why I added the 'wrap it in plastic' part though.. (make sure it's airtight) :) It's probably safe for everyone to just store the batteries (at, say, 40%) in the basement or any cool area in the house.

@geneven: There's no way I can possibly think of that would let you switch the battery without rebooting (or more correctly, shutting it down before removing the battery), as the tablets can't run with only power connected. It needs the battery in to work.

Re: Boot in 5 seconds
 

I have a spare battery too, but I wait until my tablet's battery runs out before swapping. Mostly I use an external battery pack to avoid having to turn it off at all.

Re: Boot in 5 seconds
 

I read that advice before, on Thinkwiki. Why is 40% good for the batteries?

Re: Boot in 5 seconds
 

Because higher charge levels during storage increase the rate of degradation. 40% is more "stable" (while not skirting too close to a damaging discharge).

Also, I'm fairly certain the tablet batteries don't have a circuit board (as all charging logic is handled by BME). Somebody want to cut away the plastic casing on an old one to confirm?

Re: Boot in 5 seconds
 

Installed new OMWeather. Reboot. :p

Thanks for the explanation. So, say I have 2 laptop batteries. I should put the other one to 42% and then power off my laptop and use that battery as my backup battery? But, when I'll need it it'd be only 40% full. Hmm. Seems like a sacrifice.

Re: Boot in 5 seconds
 

All removable rechargeable lithium ion batteries in personal electronics devices have a "controller" to limit charge and discharge. They must have this to be safe. Short circuiting a lithium ion battery could cause an explosion or fire without such a controller, and so can overcharging. The controller manages these scenarios to keep things safe.

I believe Apple iPod lithium ion cells do not have this controller because that battery is not removable, but every lithium ion cell phone battery I have encountered, in a PDA, cellphone, laptop/notebook, etc. that has a consumer removable Li-ion battery has the controller circuitry I have described.

I have not cut open the Nokia N800 BP-5L batteries I have here but I remain confident there is a controller circuit board in there.

It is this controller which keeps the cell from being overly discharged, or overly charged. It also manages to limit current flow in the event of a direct short across the terminals to prevent a dangerous condition. Without controllers in these batteries, you would not be allowed to board an airplane with your N800, cellphone, or laptop computer, and the batteries would not be freely transportable (shipped). Without the controller circuitry the battery is hazardous material.

Re: Boot in 5 seconds
 

Approx. a year ago I disassembled a PALM PDA. Like the Apple iPOD the PALM also had a non-removable Li-ion cell. I do not think that battery had an integrated controller because, like the iPOD, it was not consumer accessible.

I caution anyone against "tinkering" with Li-ion cells removed from devices such as the iPOD or the PALM PDA. I also caution against tinkering with individual Li-ion cells removed from notebook computers. These cells are very dangerous when shorted and they do not tolerate overcharging in the way a NiMH or NiCAD does. The Li-ion will blow up in your face if you overcharge it. I was at an outdoor demonstration once where a trash can was blown high into the air when a lithium ion cell was intentionally overcharged to show just how hazardous these can be.

I am confident without cutting into the plastic of the BP-5L that there is a circuit board controller in there. The reason laptop battery packs are so hard to "open" is one of safety.

Re: Boot in 5 seconds
 

The Palm PDA batteries have an integrated protection circuit, which is not the same as a controller. The controller is in the device (the PDA itself). The protection circuit is there to cut off the charge if the voltage reaches past 4.30 V, and below 2.5 V.

This protection circuit is installed in even the simplest lithium-ion/polymer batteries, except those that are sold in "raw" form mainly for RC enthusiasts, they make their own battery setups and adds what's necessary.

I have replaced the non-removable battery in my Palm T3, and the original battery had a protection circuit. It's the same for the T, the T2, the E2, the T5 and the TX - you can read all about the battery-replacement project over on Brighthand.
The battery I bought and installed was a lithium-polymer RC type, the protection circuits (very small) can be bought from vendors and there is one such in my replacement battery.

See above - I'm nearly 100% certain that it has a protection circuit. It doesn't have a charging circuit. It's dangerous not to have them, because if the charging circuit in your pda or phone or whatever fails to stop charging then the battery would explode if it doesn't have that protection circuit. There have been cases where phones have exploded because cheap replacement batteries without that circuit had been installed. (There's a reason Nokia now prints a hologram on their genuine batteries..)

Re: Boot in 5 seconds
 

Very good. So there is a circuit board. This means it is best not to expose it to 100% humidity.

I have a question. Does the safety circuit in your PALM PDA battery only do under and over voltage, or is there a control of discharge current. Reason I ask is that externally shorting Lithium Ion or Lithium Polymer is dangerous.

Re: Boot in 5 seconds
 

I don't remember if it trips on short circuiting (or other overcharging), unfortunately. It's been a couple of years since I did the mod and since I followed the Brighthand discussion.

But there is some info over at batteryuniversity.com.
Scroll down a little bit on http://batteryuniversity.com/partone-10.htm
and it describes a lithium-ion battery protection circuit that trips on 4.30V, 2.5V, and it has indirect over-current tripper in that a separate fuse opens at 90 degrees C (194 F) - the battery gets hot very quickly if you short it.
That article is from 2006 (last update), so it was highly up-to-date when I did my battery mod. I don't think much has changed in this respect since then.

EDIT: Added:
Agreed. Here is some info cut&past'ed from a battery reseller - a lot of them seem to have included more-or-less the same advice:

Re: Boot in 5 seconds
 

I assisted to this sort of debate some 2 years ago, entirely between nokians and the demostration was done exactly by cutting open a battery (hell, why wasting time with Lotus Notes and schematics when you can rape a battery?) and the circuitry is there.