Re: Nokia 5800 vs Nokia N810
 

I believe particularly with regard to ebook reading (including pdfs), the 5800 cannot compare with the N8x0? At least I couldn't find a satisfying solution when searching the web about that.

Re: Nokia 5800 vs Nokia N810
 

Yeah, as skatebiker said (and I said too in my original post) Maemo is a lot better for software than the 5800 right now. And the N8X0's physically larger and higher res screen is a lot better for reading ebooks anyway.

The 5800 is the very first S60 touchscreen device, and the very first S60 5th Edition device too, so there weren't too many apps available for it when it launched. That situation will get better over time as more people buy 5800s and more touchscreen S60v5 devices appear on the market (Nokia N97, Samsung Omnia HD, Sony Ericsson Idou are already announced, more are rumoured).

Ovi Store should also improve the situation as it will provide publishers with an easy route to release software on the 5800 and other phones.

In theory S60 5th Edition is backwards compatible with S60 3rd Edition, and a lot of old apps will work on the 5800, but not all of them will work, and even the ones that do work aren't touch-compatible because S60 previously didn't use touch.

So for now the N810 and N800 are far far better for software than the 5800, especially for open source and freeware.

Re: Nokia 5800 vs Nokia N810
 

well.... the nokia software updater or whatever its called doesn't ignore country and carrier, does it?

i just remember that when this software first told me an update was available, i canceled the operation and tried to do it OTA because i thought this would be so much smarter. i waited almost 2 months... until i decided it's not worth it, booted windows again and let the software do its job.

so it's not a matter of waiting another day or so....

Re: Nokia 5800 vs Nokia N810
 

I don't know, but it certainly hasn't been my experience. I can't even check for updates on the phone.

Basically, after a few days with this device I've discovered a couple things:

• Symbian is a joke. I don't know how anybody can take such a user-hostile platform seriously (the signed software is insanity, and I'm quite thankful for the centralized software distribution we have in Maemo). The tiered platform software for different devices is a nasty way to up-sell, and I've found that things just don't work very well most of the time (the email client chokes when opening GMail messages about 50% of the time).
• Nokia's failure to sell phones in the US is completely deserved. I'm fairly certain OTA updates are not available to NAM devices (even though they were advertised on the website), but I can't be sure of this because support (both official and community-provided) is utterly useless. The horror stories about Nokia Care services in the US are further proof if this.

Bring on the high-end Linux phones!

Re: Nokia 5800 vs Nokia N810
 

Maybe you have a faulty unit?

There have been loads of people who come on here and say "Maemo sucks - X doesn't even work - what a POS!" when it's some feature that does actually work for most people.

Or maybe Nokia simply hasn't made the NAM update available on OTA? But if that's the case that wouldn't be a problem with the actual phone, it would be a problem with Nokia's North American customer service (see below for more on this).



Well that's what Ovi Store is meant to correct, it'll allow people to install thousands of items of software from a single application (and Ovi Store should be a LOT easier to use than the current Maemo application manager).

But I wouldn't call a platform "user-hostile" because of its app distribution system, as most users don't install add-on software on their phones. They don't regard phones as computers, they regard them as consumer devices like music players or games consoles: they'll probably stick to whatever is built into the device.

With Maemo you still get people saying "I can't use Maemo it doesn't have any PIM software", not because PIM software doesn't exist but because there's no PIM software built in. They judge the device entirely by what comes bundled with it, whether or not a better alternative add-on exists.


I totally agree the 5800's Messaging client isn't suited to e-mail. In fact the 5800's email client isn't really meant for email, it's basically just the text message app with some e-mail support bolted on to it.

But as it's S60 you can install a third party client instead, for example Profimail is a very popular third party alternative.

And Nokia's confusingly-named "Nokia Messaging" is another alternative (yes I know the SMS client is called "Messaging" too but they're totally separate).


I don't think the US is the best place to judge Nokia's output, for many different reasons:

-Only a fraction of Nokia's output is ever released in the US. It seems to consist almost entirely of ultra-cheap models and the occasional sim-free higher end model, but most of it simply isn't available.

-It's not exactly easy to sell phones in the US when the US networks insist on crippling them. All of Nokia's first wave of wi-fi phones had to have wi-fi stripped away to be sold in the US. The European and Asian versions of those phones had wi-fi on all networks.

-American networks have been unbelievably slow in upgrading to 3G, and even 2G coverage in the US is pretty awful by European or Asian standards. That sort of destroys the point of many of the features of modern Nokias and Nokia services.

-American users seem to prefer more computer-shaped while European and Asian users want something more phone-shaped. Nokia's a European company so their devices tend to be phone-like. It's quite telling that Nokia's biggest hit in America appears to be the Maemo tablets, which are their most computer-like product since they stopped making PCs in the 1980s.


If the problem is bad customer service, then it has absolutely nothing to do with the technical merits of the actual product.

Like I said before, customer service in Europe is pretty good, I've never had problems getting a Nokia device repaired or replaced, and it's always been totally free of charge. It sounds like this standard isn't really adhered to in America.

There have been lots and lots of threads about this topic on here, and part of the reason seems to be America's extremely weak consumer protection laws which mean customer support across the board is pretty crummy compared to other rich countries.

In Europe if you have a problem with a product which doesn't allow you to use it properly, and the maker or retailer refuses to fix it, you can go to a local government office and they will threaten action on your behalf free-of-charge. If the problem still carries on, they will take it to court with the bill paid for by the tax payer.

For example, I was nearly conned out of quite a lot of money by an unscrupulous landlord (who worked for a very large renting agency), and he simply refused to be reasonable. I went to my local office and explained the situation, gave them documents to prove what I said was true, and they then handled the whole thing from there on in using their own lawyers. I got my money back in full, and didn't have to pay a penny or put any kind of effort into it myself.

AFAIK something like that doesn't really exist in the US. If an individual or company in America takes your money and messes you around you're expected to take action on your own through the courts. (That could explain why Americans have a reputation for being quick to sue, because they often have no other method for getting their money back.)

Re: Nokia 5800 vs Nokia N810
 

I cannot agree here. I've had two issues when I needed Nokia customer support, and both were trips to hell.

First I had my 770 repaired. 9 weeks. 9 damn weeks, and I got back a different unit with large scratches on the cover. It WSODed shortly afterwards.

Then I tried to get Ovi sync working. Took them one month to find out they couldn't help me. It was hilarious:
Me: "... fails with a server error..."
Nokia: "... there might be an issue with the server ..."
Me: "... oh. Thanks. Now?"
Nokia: "Delete everything and start all over again."
Me: "Didn't work. Now?"
Nokia: "Tell us your firmware version and which browser and OS you're using on your PC."
Me: "Firmware is 4.22. Browser and PC are not involved."
Nokia: "Tell us which browser and OS you're using on your PC."
Me: "Windows XP and IE" (you need to do this, otherwise you get the "we don't support linux" answer)
Nokia: "OK. We forwarded the ticket to our technical experts."
Me: "So?"
Nokia: "They say you should upgrade your firmware to the latest version."
Me: "I have 4.22 and you know I have 4.22 and this is the latest version your software says is available."
Nokia: "How are you today? Feeling excellent I hope. You're right, 4.22 is the latest firmware."
Me: "My problem is still unsolved."
Nokia: "You could re-install the firmware. Maybe this helps." (After 1 month!!!)
Me: :confused::mad:


Nokia....

Re: Nokia 5800 vs Nokia N810
 

Faulty, as in it didn't ship with update server information and that information is apparently unavailable? . . .

It goes way beyond the OTA stuff, the software just isn't very well put together, it's not very pleasant to use and the platform isn't very good.

If this is the case, wherever the fault lies, it's still a problem with the phone (and thus Nokia's fully deserved failure in the US).

I'll believe it when I see it. But, really, how long has Symbian been around? It's taken them since when to get reasonable software distribution together? :rolleyes:

The application distribution, installation and security system is user-hostile.

For-pay. Yeah, I'll wait for Fremantle's Modest, thanks. :rolleyes:

Be great if it worked, but it doesn't.

Bull. Almost all of Nokia's stuff is released in the US, it's just not often provided with contract.

Well, that, and Nokia insists on providing terrible support for their unlocked phones. Don't use the carriers as a scapegoat.

I don't know how much travelling you do in the US (I'd guess not much judging by this statement), but the vast majority of metropolitan areas in the US have perfectly fine 3G coverage, and 2G coverage is acceptable elsewhere. Either way, comparing places like Europe and Japan to the US is silly. You guys don't have anywhere near the landmass to cover.

This is an issue of the software platform, though.

Yet plenty of US companies manage to provide perfectly good customer service (I'll point to Apple doing a no-cost repair that totals out to more than the cost of the machine new on my 5-year-old G5).

Ha! Remind me how much you guys pay in taxes a year? And how much more expensive electronics are over there? Trust me, you're paying for your consumer "protection" laws whether you realize it or not.

Yes, contract law is a wonderful thing. We have it over here, too.

So your options are, pay somebody with taxes to handling everybody's problems or only pay when you yourself have a problem.

Re: Nokia 5800 vs Nokia N810
 

I'd recommend refreshing your database on the respective sizes of Europe and the US :)

Re: Nokia 5800 vs Nokia N810
 

Luckily, for the Linux users, you can use VMware Player for Linux (download it free, really free no trial, from www.vmware.com) to run Windows XP in it and install PC Suite and Nokia Software Updater within the VMware session. I reflashed my 5800 successfully that way.

Re: Nokia 5800 vs Nokia N810
 

May work, but not to be recommended.

I know of a case where someone tried the same with Parallels/Mac and the result was: the phone was bricked.

Re: Nokia 5800 vs Nokia N810
 

I've flashed my N800 several times from a Windows XP virtual machine within Parallels, and the only time I flashed my N810, it was via the same method. I've had no trouble.

Re: Nokia 5800 vs Nokia N810
 

Now I've gotta know. Why?

Re: Nokia 5800 vs Nokia N810
 

As in, "Why not use the Mac OS X native tool?" That's a fair question. I don't have a particularly interesting answer for it though.

When I first purchased and flashed my N800, I used the flasher Nokia provided right off the N800 support page on their website. I don't think I was even aware of flashers for non-Windows platforms at that time, and I didn't have a need to search an alternative out, as one of the machines on my desk at work was a Windows box.

Later, when I moved everything from that Windows box into a virtual machine, I installed the Nokia flasher there too. It had worked well for me in the past, it seemed the most official, and the available documentation for alternatives solutions was in an even worse state than it is now.

I've never had any need or desire to use any of the advanced options available in the command line flashers, so I haven't felt the need to replace what has worked well.

Re: Nokia 5800 vs Nokia N810
 

OK, let's do that.

Really, though, it's not the absolute size that's important (nor what I was referring to), it's the population distribution. Most of Europe's population tends to be centered in large metropolitan areas (much like Canada), while a significant portion of the US population is distributed over much more land and smaller population centers, and, individually, European carriers have to cover less ground in a limited number of much smaller countries. The end result is that the US carriers' customer base is spread out over more space which is more difficult and more expensive to provide strong coverage for.

Now, this certainly isn't the only reason the US lags behind in connectivity, but it cannot be dismissed as a contributing factor.

So, please, refresh you own "databases" before you start in on other people. :)

Re: Nokia 5800 vs Nokia N810
 

GA, you disappoint me. Linking data describing Western Europe and claiming to refer to population you when you were explicitly quoted saying Europe and using the term landmass (highlighted in my other post) does not befit a person of your meticulousness. Thus...

Europe (pronounced /ˈjɜrəp/, /ˈjʊərəp/) is, by convention, one of the world's seven traditional continents. It covers roughly 10,180,000 km² (3,930,000 sq mi) of Earth's surface.

The United States of America (commonly referred to as the United States, the U.S., the USA, or America) has a land area of about 9,158,960 km² (3,536,294 sq mi).

Consider yourself generalized. :D

Re: Nokia 5800 vs Nokia N810
 

just a heads up! isilo comes to the 5800 and it works beautifully! one more point for the phone.. now I'm seriously thinking about selling by n800..

Re: Nokia 5800 vs Nokia N810
 

I own a N800 (and 770 and N95 and other S60 Phones).
I like S60 a lot, and I love maemo.

I have just ordered a 5800. I think it will replace my N800 and N95 for the time being.
I think it is very strange to compare the 5800 with a N800 (or N810).
The hardware of the N800 is 2 years older! That is long time in smartphone land.

One of the things I like about the 5800 is that it has TV-out and that it has a HSPDA modem build-in (I hope it is just as good as the N95, that device has MUCH better reception when compared to the iPhone 3G).
Also the Flash video support on the 5800 seems to be a bit smoother when compared to the N800.

On the internet is some talk that the 5800 also supports DVB-H with a SU-33W bluetooth receiver.
If it does, than the device comes very close to my ideal device:
-high res touch screen (that was the best part of the 770 and N800 imho )
-good web browser
-wifi support
-HSPDA
-TV-out
-DVB-T or DVB-H receiver

The GPS is also welcome, but for me not that big of a deal (that is why I didn't upgrade to the N810: not a big enough improvement, besides people said the GPS on the N810 didn't seem to function that well).

Also the 5800 is very affordable here in Holland: less than 250,- euros in total (and that includes a year contract with my telephone provider)

Symbian and S60 are very different from Maemo. S60 is a phone OS that is evolving to a mobile computing platform, and Maemo is a full desktop linux environment that is evolving to the same thing.

I hope the new internet tablet will become even better, but for now, the 5800 will do for me.

Re: Nokia 5800 vs Nokia N810
 

Agreed Nokia shipped my 5800 without OTA information, my N78 does have that info and I have updated it successfully twice using OTA.


The platform is the most successful smartphone platform in the world. It provides a huge amount of features with acceptable stability that others such as iphone OS and Rim etc haven't even come close to yet.

OPK and them have been quoted as saying that trying to sell mobiles in the US is like trying to sell mobiles to 4 people, there is very little flexibility. Look at the crippled e62, the e71x the 6682 the n75 the 6650. These are all phone released by ATT and crippled beyond usability (e71x is supposedly useable).

Before the Apple App store Winmo, Symbian and Palm were all on independent distribution systems. Apple with its iTunes lock in model perfected, came in and shook up the market. They had perfected revenue share with content distributors from large to small indies before so the App store was easier for them to set up. Ovi store will probably not be as good as the App store but at least its better than what was out there before.

The old Symbian Series 60 was a haven for cracked software pirates and had become a target for viruses. Symbian-Signed was an attempt at providing some kind of security system. It's flawed but there is a process to it, installing a virus or malware is definitely the users fault.


Nokia Messaging Beta (nokia email) offers a free push email solution, it does work I use it every day. Gmail has a native app that runs well on the 5800.

There is a difference between released and available on the grey market. Of course you can buy any Nokia phone here, but there are actually not that many Nokia phones released other than S60 high end phones. When you look at s40 probably 1/10 of those phones make it over here to the US.



I grew up in Zimbabwe and there is better 3G (hell and 2G) service in the city of Harare then there is here in NYC where I live. NYC has the highest population density of any American city and 3G speeds and coverage on ATT is a well known joke. Personally I think the problem is cost cutting by the big providers, whenever my friends from UK and South Africa visit they are shocked when they can't get a signal in my apartment in the heart of Manhattan.

Nit picking aside, the 5800 is what it is, a $275 touchscreen phone, which makes it one of the cheapest (if not the cheapest) touch screen phone available in the US. As a long time Symbian user I obviously find it easier to get into than Ryan and its easily my favorite s60 since the E70. I'm looking forward to the Rx-51 and maemo 5 but until then the 5800 and my N810 will be a nice combination to carry.

Re: Nokia 5800 vs Nokia N810
 

Which would be great if it worked. :rolleyes:

Re: Nokia 5800 vs Nokia N810
 

GA I don't understand I use Nokia Messaging and Google's Gmail app on my 5800 and they both work well?

Re: Nokia 5800 vs Nokia N810
 

Nokia's Messaging beta doesn't work at all, and the bundled messaging application starting crashing whenever I tried to open a message in my Inbox. Haven't bothered to try Google's stuff.

So far, Symbian seems more half-assed and half-working than even Maemo.

Re: Nokia 5800 vs Nokia N810
 

TBH I haven't used the built in messaging application on s60 since my 6682 about 4 years ago, I used the Gmail java app since I run all my emails through it. Here is a good installation guide
http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/featu...pressMusic.php

The instructions for the beta messaging app are here.

http://betalabs.nokia.com/betas/view...60-5th-edition

it works pretty flawlessly for me, the SMS provisioning is a bit of a pain in the *** but apart from that one time setup I have had zero problems with this email application.

I am well versed in Symbian's weaknesses, but as far as using a mobile for business uses such as PIM and email I find it much better than my N810, modest crashed my desktop every 5 minutes and the PIM is not as advanced as Symbian. I am about 10%-15% faster on the hardware keyboard of the N810 for text entry but still very good with the on screen keyboard of the 5800 because of the N800.

Multimedia is pretty much a wash depending on if you use DRM or not, if you do then Playsforsure compatibility means that I can take my Rhapsody music on the go when I am offline something which I can't do with N810 and also Amazon Unbox works great. The N810 has a MUCH better screen and I prefer the speakers on it as well.

I have a feeling that when the N97 launches and the Ovi store with all of the apps from Amazon, Reuters, Facebook, Fandango etc S60 5th edition will probably be a lot more fun.
I still prefer the fact that my N810 is a computer and runs a desktop level OS and this is one of the reasons I can't wait for Maemo 5 and the RX-51 I might be able to retire the 5800 if VOIP is viable over 3G.

Re: Nokia 5800 vs Nokia N810
 

Yes, thanks, I can Google. :) Like I said, it just plain doesn't work.

Re: Nokia 5800 vs Nokia N810
 

Sorry about that when you say it doesn't work it left me confused to the fact that following those two exact guides made both programs work on my 5800 which I believe I have had for roughly the same time as you have. You are a savvy user, so I guess you have given up? I should have detected you weren't looking for assistance and not said anything :) Have a wonderful evening

Re: Nokia 5800 vs Nokia N810
 

I've banged my head against the wall for hours over every other thing about this damn phone and talking about it just puts me in a bad mood. Sorry.