Re: Proposal for "Maemo User School" hosted on maemo.org to replace Tablet School
 

I think many people are happy for krisse's come back and appreciate her proposals. She needs and deserves the support of the community. She has done a fine job in the past with her tutorials and has the experience and skillset required for tutorials that aim the general public.

Regards,
Antonio

Re: Proposal for "Maemo User School" hosted on maemo.org to replace Tablet School
 

Krisse, don't listen to some of the people here, you have much more experience in creating user friendly tutorials than they do, I have seen your s60 videos which are great resources too. There is a certain expectation of technical proficiency that a lot of users here have for others that is unfair and unrealistic.
Wiki 's are not user friendly and can be confusing to some people.

Tablet School on maemo.org using video is a great idea and I will be willing to help out with shooting or editing.

Re: Proposal for "Maemo User School" hosted on maemo.org to replace Tablet School
 

Wiki's are nothing more than collections of web pages that can be edited by anyone. They're not inherently user friendly or unfriendly, nor are they inherently confusing or clear. Saying wikis are confusing is like saying text editors are confusing. It's meaningless, as the tool isn't is really relevant to the content.

Re: Proposal for "Maemo User School" hosted on maemo.org to replace Tablet School
 

They can also be watched, tweaked and guided by people "watching" the pages; giving krisse the ability to get the quality control desired, without sacrificing other people's ability to tweak and improve (e.g., in my suggestion, writing a text version of the provided video).

The other very important thing to realise is that the legwork of setting this up in wiki.maemo.org, including a nice index page pulling content (incl. thumbnails) from YouTube RSS feeds is that using the wiki will make it much easier to get something off the ground quickly: sure, base the UI on maemo.org downloads, but the midgard module there probably isn't suitable for use exactly as-is.

If you want it doing, you can get started quicker in the wiki than waiting for someone who knows midgard to develop and deploy it for you.

If it becomes really successful, and outgrows the technical ability of the wiki platform to meet your functional requirements, there's an easy "business case" to make: it's successful, but it can't quite do a, b & c well at the moment. Then it'd be much easier to get the buy-in to develop all sorts of whizzy midgard modules.

However, I think - without trying - you're underestimating how far you can get building on the MediaWiki install available to you.

Finally, any time I hear "wikis are too confusing [to read/edit]", I like to point out that one of the number one sites on the Internet, edited by thousands of people and used by millions, is Wikipedia. Running on exactly the same software (MediaWiki) as wiki.maemo.org.

Re: Proposal for "Maemo User School" hosted on maemo.org to replace Tablet School
 

I think what I liked about Krisse's tutorials is that they seem more like a teaching tool rather than a help tool. Wiki seems to me more like an extended help menu. The way I see the Tabletschool is a way for a new purchaser who is NOT tech savvy ie. someone like my significant other who is smart but has no interest in "getting root" to do whatever she needs to do, to actually learn what all their tablet can do.
I would never tell her to go to wiki.maemo.org to learn how to use her tablet.

I use the wiki.maemo.org all the time and no offense to anyone here but its a common theme that sometimes wikis can be confusing to navigate, I hear it all the time about wikipedia. I don't think this is a case of one or the other, I think two streams can co-exist here.

Re: Proposal for "Maemo User School" hosted on maemo.org to replace Tablet School
 

None of what you've listed here has anything at all to do with the tool, nor is it a justification for creating a whole new tool for Maemo School.

Fragmenting your documentation is never a good plan, and it's definitely not a justifiable one here.

Re: Proposal for "Maemo User School" hosted on maemo.org to replace Tablet School
 

I don't think that the best way to reach someone who says that Wikis are too difficult to read it to tell them that they are not confused or that Wikis are based on bestselling software. In fact, if I had to pick WORST ways, these would be them.

I think that Maemo is a terrible label to use at this time to approach newbies. What's a Maemo? How can I buy one? Why should I learn to use one?

Re: Proposal for "Maemo User School" hosted on maemo.org to replace Tablet School
 

Krisse's original call for action was to create a 100% video site. That is what I am volunteering to shoot and edit for, I am not volunteering to edit a text based tutorial wiki. I have my own web space which I could do something on my own so does Krisse, instead I believe Krisse is doing the right thing by trying to tie her vision into maemo.org.

The real problem here is ignoring the aggressive users who insist that their vision is the only one that counts and realizing that there is more than one way of doing things.

What I don't get is why are people trying to stop people trying to contribute something to the community?

Re: Proposal for "Maemo User School" hosted on maemo.org to replace Tablet School
 

Except she seems to want to waste energy developing a new tool that would fragment the documentation efforts and cost paid employees time and effort better spent elsewhere when we already have a perfectly suitable existing tool in place.

What's wrong with attaching videos to wiki articles (and wiki articles to videos)? You get the best of both options, videos for people who prefer them and text for people who prefer that. It's easily indexable, it's easy to edit, and it's easy to access. You can even create your own little walled-garden if that's what you want to do.

None of the technical requirements you've outlined require anything more than the existing software we've got at wiki.maemo.org. It is silly to toss what we've got out the window because of some strange prejudice against existing content.

Because there's a better way to do it which wont waste people's time and energy unnecessarily.

We have the wiki right now! The only thing you need to do to get start is to to start filming. Once you have some videos then stick them up on the wiki. If it's already covered by an existing article, then stick it there, if it's not, then create a new article, stick it in there and wait for somebody to come along and add text.

Want an index page? Create one, you can do pretty little RSS feeds, little category indexes, pretty pictures, whatever you want.

Easy, simple, already setup.

Re: Proposal for "Maemo User School" hosted on maemo.org to replace Tablet School
 

A lot of us have an idea of what a wiki is but I don't think we all know what it is capable of. I would classify Ryan (GA) as a MediaWiki expert. I have seen pages and pages here that up to now, I don't know how they were made and never realized MediaWiki is capable of.

I say start planning the structure of the School already and detail the requirements like: video uploading, modification (I'm not sure if YouTube will let you update a video), RSS feeds, discussion, search, etc. Then, ask Ryan if each of the components will run on MediaWiki.

With regards to discussion of the videos, I can help create a bridge/component to TALK if needed. The only thing I would advice is to have the video discussion inside maemo.org and not through an external site like say within YouTube.

Re: Proposal for "Maemo User School" hosted on maemo.org to replace Tablet School
 

With maemo 5 being more mainstream i am not sure if people really will need this video site. I am not saying dont do it..... but wait and see until after the release and decide.

Re: Proposal for "Maemo User School" hosted on maemo.org to replace Tablet School
 

A good point. Getting the requirements, infrastructure and - say - the existing tablet school videos online under maemo.org in the correct structure is a good starting point. But with the future of existing Maemo devices being Mer, and future devices being Maemo 5/6; videos created now could date very quickly.

Anyway, I agree with what Reggie suggests: come up with a functional requirement and the technical experts can tell/help you deliver it in the best way possible in the shortest time.

Re: Proposal for "Maemo User School" hosted on maemo.org to replace Tablet School
 

Thank you for the feedback everyone.

From what I can gather, people here want:

-No filtering process because that would restrict people's ability to contribute

-No quality control

-No videos because they would date too quickly

-No tutorials for beginners because the new version of Maemo will be so easy to use

...the only conclusion that I can draw from that is that people don't want the Tablet School to return at all, because it was based entirely around these four things.


Okay, I'm obviously not required here at all. Apologies for wasting everyone's time.

You've got everything in hand, and a wiki like this:

http://wiki.maemo.org/Category:Users

featuring articles like this:

http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware
http://wiki.maemo.org/Podcasts
http://wiki.maemo.org/Batteries

is obviously the best way to help beginners use their Maemo device.

If that's the case then I can't help Maemo at all, because I've got this misguided idea that sites aimed at beginners should be built around the needs of beginners and not just be repositories of general documentation.

Re: Proposal for "Maemo User School" hosted on maemo.org to replace Tablet School
 

Incidentally I was NOT calling for "a whole new content tool" to be created.

I was just asking for something that is laid out like the current existing Downloads page to be set up, and used as a way to organise pages with videos on.

Whatever technology that uses doesn't matter, whether it's wiki-based or whatever, as long as it looks and behaves identically to the current Downloads section, and as long as it cannot be edited by anyone but the admins.

To use an analogy the current Wiki is more like a library, whereas what I'm calling for is like a series of lessons. The clue is in the name, Maemo School.

Imagine you went to a school to learn something new and they just plonked a load of text books on the table on the assumption that there's lots of useful information in them, so that must be the same thing as a lesson.

I just don't get why there couldn't be a separate Maemo School in one part of the site, and a separate Maemo Wiki in another part. Why the heck should they be merged when they're serving two totally different purposes?

This idea that it would take lots of work to set up a Maemo School section is total bulls..t. I've already set up a video tutorial site and the actual page setup takes no time at all. I can't believe the CMS on maemo.org would make it challenging to basically just clone the existing Downloads front end.

And don't talk to me about wasting the time of "paid employees".

It's the videos that take 95% of the time to do on a Tablet School style site, and if I'm willing to put my UNPAID time to doing the videos, the least I could expect from the maemo.org is that they can do the remaining 5%.

If I did do these videos for maemo.org there wouldn't even be any adsense ads to earn me a few pennies. I would be doing the work free, gratis, for nothing. But apparently no good deed goes unpunished.

Re: Proposal for "Maemo User School" hosted on maemo.org to replace Tablet School
 

And another thing.

Could all the people shooting down my ideas about doing tutorials for beginners post the tutorials they've written and videoed for beginners?

I can post my list right here:

Re: Proposal for "Maemo User School" hosted on maemo.org to replace Tablet School
 

A quick read through and it seems to me you have a vast amount to contribute and the arrogance(?) to say "My way or nothing" :(

Shame really.

Would hurt your pride too much to *try* and make the existing wiki work?

Throw some pointers up to those tutorials and I'll volunteer to help you wikify them.

Re: Proposal for "Maemo User School" hosted on maemo.org to replace Tablet School
 

It's not "my way or nothing" it's "my way or the way of someone else who is writing tutorials for beginners".

I would love to hear from someone else who has written Maemo tutorials aimed at beginners, and exchange ideas on how best this could be done.

The problem is that no one seems to be doing this at all.

You talk about arrogance, but how arrogant is it to complain about something without creating an alternative?

How arrogant is it to say "something must be done" but then fail to do it yourself?

There is NOTHING to stop people doing what I did. If they think they can do it better, that's great, go ahead and do it.

But if you don't do it then nothing happens at all, good or bad.


I think you're misunderstanding the situation here.

I did Tablet School on my own, the way I saw fit, in my own time. The reason I did this was precisely because the existing forms of online documentation (including maemo.org) weren't good enough IMHO.

Instead of just whining about how poor the existing documentation was for beginners, I set out to actually do something about it by providing a better alternative.

I was then invited to contribute Tablet School's contents to maemo.org, so that beginners would have somewhere to go on the site.

I posted on here asking for feedback on whether other people would like to contribute, and what form the new school would take.


I am not volunteering for all-purpose duties helping Maemo, I'm here offering to restart Tablet School as part of maemo.org.

If you are happy with the existing Wiki, and if you think the principles by which Tablet School site ran were misguided, then there is nothing I can offer the site.

Re: Proposal for "Maemo User School" hosted on maemo.org to replace Tablet School
 

Looking at this empirically, if the wiki is such a better way to do tutorials for beginners, why is it that the wiki is still useless for beginners?

My answer would be that beginners guides aren't suitable for the wiki format, because beginners do better with guides written using a consistent style and format.

Wikis are great at collecting knowledge, but they are poor at serving a specific target audience.

Re: Proposal for "Maemo User School" hosted on maemo.org to replace Tablet School
 

If the maemo web site is also geared towards the masses who will hopefully purchase some device running the maemo platform, then I think that Krisse is right. The current wiki does not respond to the needs of beginners who just want to be able to use the software and do some basic stuff, not become root or modify CSS.

If on the other hand the web site is only for developers and geeks, then it is about time to think about another dedicated site. I would think nobody really wants this.

It is not intuitive that the wiki should be under 'Community'. Consider a section of How-to or something similar with subsections of School and other materials.

Also I believe that the tone of some posts are aggressive and not constructive. If contributors with a strong background in content development and very specific experience are welcomed this way, many will keep at bay.

Regards,
Antonio

Re: Proposal for "Maemo User School" hosted on maemo.org to replace Tablet School
 

I think we need some sort of mockup or proof of concept maemo school created to wiki. Maemo school can be completely separate and wiki is used only as a tool.

Re: Proposal for "Maemo User School" hosted on maemo.org to replace Tablet School
 

Two cents:

The wiki could definitely be used for something like Krisse is suggesting. It would just need a couple of maintainers that could style the pages (and index) in a usable way for beginners -- this is not impossible for a wiki-based site:

http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
http://premierepro.wikia.com/wiki/Ad...miere_Pro_Wiki
http://audacityteam.org/wiki/index.php?title=Tutorials
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Video_Tutorials

Of course, these aren't the "best" wikis, but they are some examples of what can be done. (Sorry, my son is hanging off of my back right now, or I'd look for more!)

Anyway... Video uploaded to Vimeo and/or Poptent can be updated (i.e., re-uploaded). And, there are some cool Mediawiki plugins for dealing with video and media content.

Tim

Re: Proposal for "Maemo User School" hosted on maemo.org to replace Tablet School
 

Clearly there's disagreement on how to proceed, so I've posted a poll in a separate thread:

http://www.internettablettalk.com/fo...912#post283912

Re: Proposal for "Maemo User School" hosted on maemo.org to replace Tablet School
 

krisse, would you, perhaps, consider this:

It is true that right now, should you go to a random page in the maemo.org wiki, odds are high that what you find will need improvement in both style and content. However, this is also true of both web pages and YouTube videos.

Obviously, you have created both web and YouTube video content that defies those odds. You've proven it's not the tools that force so much of the web and YouTube to be junk. You, krisse, have the skils, the knowledge, and the drive to turn out quality material that shines on its own--and especially in comparison to that around it.

Wiki content doesn't need to be bad either. There are excellent articles in Wikipedia. There's also total drek. The folks at Wikipedia encourage editors of all pages to revise, improve, and aim to be as good the best pages. Why not make your content in the maemo.org wiki be our best pages?

You've established a style and proven it works well. Let's use it to spur on improvement of everything else.

Re: Proposal for "Maemo User School" hosted on maemo.org to replace Tablet School
 

What was wrong with the suggestion of doing a clone of the Downloads section?

Why is it so important to do this as part of the Wiki?

The wiki as it stands is difficult and unintuitive to navigate, whereas Downloads is much more user-friendly.

I'm sure someone COULD make the Wiki more user-friendly, but that begs the question why hasn't it happened yet?

Re: Proposal for "Maemo User School" hosted on maemo.org to replace Tablet School
 

If those are the most user-friendly examples you can give for wikis, then I am definitely not going to contribute to any wiki.

They're a total mess without any structure or clear pointers where the user should get started.

Re: Proposal for "Maemo User School" hosted on maemo.org to replace Tablet School
 

My opinion here is I don't think the style and method of delivering tutorials or guides holds much weight. I have seen guides written in plain text files, Word docs, PDFs, FAQs, forums, blogs, wikis, etc. The more important thing here is how everything is laid out, how easy it is for a beginner to find the information he/she is looking for, and how well, in a school perspective, can someone help the student if he/she has additional questions.

Now videos of course is a different thing since you can't search the content. If there is an index on description on the video that looks like the following, then it can be search-able and be of great help:

• 0:00 - Control Panel introduction: yada yada yada
• 0:20 - The Control Panel screen: yada yada yada
• 0:45 - The - Control Panel menus: yada yada yada
• 1:45 - etc.

Re: Proposal for "Maemo User School" hosted on maemo.org to replace Tablet School
 

Because there are only a handful of volunteers who have limited time to do it.

Tim

Re: Proposal for "Maemo User School" hosted on maemo.org to replace Tablet School
 

...so why use wikis for a beginner's guide?

What's the point if there are too few people to make the wiki easy to navigate for beginners?

Re: Proposal for "Maemo User School" hosted on maemo.org to replace Tablet School
 

I'm not fond of the predisposition that people have had in the past few days to start splitting threads and coming up with ultimatum-based polls. As if a majority decision is important when someone has motivation which would improve maemo.org.

The fact that your poll, and your language, is so black and white shows that you've really not been listening to anyone who's suggesting mechanisms by which your vision could be delivered technically. That's actually called "helping", not "hindering".

As to your questions above, I've addressed them in your poll, here:

http://www.internettablettalk.com/fo...1&postcount=11

Believe me, no-one thinks things should be hard; no-one wants new users to be lost or confused. Many people believe that the commitment of you - and others - to produce high-quality tutorial videos is a good thing.

Perhaps some people's reticence to spend a lot of effort cloning the technology and code behind downloads, adapting it to video, and adding a whole workflow/quality-control system on top is because you've produced fantastic tutorials in the past, but you've only just come back after leaving the community (hmm, tact mode on) when you came to the conclusion Nokia weren't going to be successful in the mass-market with Maemo devices.

So, I suggest you start again with a blank slate; and stop confusing the content of the wiki, with the expert opinions that as a platform it can give you what (we think) you want, quickly.

Start again, and:

1. Define what you actually need, and what you want.
2. Define a process for people willing to create videos.
3. Recruit volunteers to help maintain quality.
4. Recruit volunteers with the equipment and skill to produce the videos.
5. Possibly recruit volunteers willing to transcribe/index the videos into text.

Once steps 1 is complete, and 2-3 have started; other people can get to work delivering you a nice easy to use system to deliver the tutorials; along the same lines as "downloads".

Re: Proposal for "Maemo User School" hosted on maemo.org to replace Tablet School
 

What if we let the School project toi come up with 20 videos or so first? Before that, a list can do. After that, the project will have demonstrated its potential a lot better and all we will be able to discuss much better where and how these videos should be shown and organized.

The hosting of the videos themselves wouldn't happen in maemo.org anyway, most probably in vimeo or somewhere specialized in video streaming.

Re: Proposal for "Maemo User School" hosted on maemo.org to replace Tablet School
 

Who is "people" anyway? Your project targets new users and all this discussion is happening among experienced users.

You have a vision, you are willing to commit to your project, you are willing to do it with the Maemo community and within maemo.org... The biggest chunk of the work is the production of the videos.

If you succeed with that, you get users finding useful your project and you still think it makes sense to continue... then a well structured community shouldn't generate stop energies against it. Peopl willing to contribute should be able to contribute and the rest could be doing something else.

Wiki or downloads... this is the most trivial part of the work. And it's not worth discussing it at this point, really.

Re: Proposal for "Maemo User School" hosted on maemo.org to replace Tablet School
 

Much of this (to some extent flamed) discussion has forgotten to consider that

it takes a lot of skill and experience to make a good beginners tutorial.
Also in video.

Just remember all those user manuals you have sworn over...
The British magazine New Scientist (comparable to Scientific American) once had a discussion on its off topic page about even experimental scientists having a hard time getting the hang of their VHS recorders...

Krisse is certainly right,
some topics, especially for beginners, are better taught by video than by text,
and it takes some time to learn to make a good video.
(I don't mean technically, but e.g. in the timing of events.)

Of course,
in some cases explaining texts are needed even if there is a good video.

Krisse is right,
a collection of beginners tutorials (whether text or video) need to be supervised and organised by someone/people with teaching experience.
And beginners should not have to search inside a wiki of more advanced and hardly understood information.

Now, should maemo.org include some tablet schooling ?
I think it should.
It would, I think, be a good investment for the start of a future growth of developing manpower.

( A comment on the side :
I find it difficult to find good beginners information on Linux on the internet, after reading this discussion (well, some of it) I begin to understand why... :))