Re: Why Symbian OS is so not friendly at all? How is Maemo?
 

Bug Nokia always tells you to backup all data before a firmware update for the N95. It was their mantra until the latest handsets got UDR (user data retention).

Re: Why Symbian OS is so not friendly at all? How is Maemo?
 

Forget the contacts. This can be backuped.

But, the existing installations are affected by the upgrade. Existing installations will disappear and all the applications need to be re-installed. Why re-installed solution, does not make any sense, but this is how symbian works, it will try to re-install your applications. And this applies to new devices with UDR (user data retention).

After this none of my old Java applications are running, just few s60 applications were successfully reinstalled, so many, many applications are lost. This applies even if you backup your data. So, after upgrade, some of your installations will be lost.

Re: Why Symbian OS is so not friendly at all? How is Maemo?
 

This means you saved manually your downloaded "sis" file in one of your custom folders.
But if you install applications from OVI store directly on the device, the download and installation process in ovi is behind the courtins for you, so you don't have access to the downloaded sis or jar file to save it somewhere. So this is how after a device update you might loose paid applications and more over, ovi does not let you re-install the paid app even on the same device (AppStore lets you install on 5 devices, the same Android store)...

Re: Why Symbian OS is so not friendly at all? How is Maemo?
 

I haven't the knowledge to give those answers, but I venture a comment.
( I am just an end user with general, but almost no programming, knowledge.)
From half a year of reading a great deal on this forum in order to learn about the OS and the hardware, my impression is that you should have positive expectations.

As to OS compatibility, the OS for the N900 (Fremantle) will not be compatible with the OS for the N810/800, the devices having somewhat different hardware.
BUT, the Mer project, supported by Nokia, builds an OS for the N8x0 tablets with as much as possible from Fremantle included. (See about Mer in it's thread and on wiki.maemo.org.)

I use a simple Symbian S60 v.3 phone, and a Nokia N810.
If the N900 is similar enough, I hope to be able to afford it !

With Symbian I had some of your problems, and a few others.
I have had no negative experiences with the N810 OS, so long as I haven't experimented to wildly.
Installing a few dozen apps from the standard sources and uninstalling many of them has been a breeze with only one misbehaving app.
The app. manager has done it all, except for one app. under developement, where I had to install a library from the command line, well guided by the developer.

Symbian: I missed apps for longer notes and texts.
N810: I miss a PIM suite, but I guess it will be ready for the N900.
What I miss: Phone+Tablet mutually syncronized.

Re: Why Symbian OS is so not friendly at all? How is Maemo?
 

Seriously, are you a professional troll?

Re: Why Symbian OS is so not friendly at all? How is Maemo?
 

Almost as bad as a professional Qole...

Thank god we don't have OH SNAP WE DO!

I have never used Symbian, and I really don't think it reflects Maemo's quality. Maemo has been a great OS, not really any major problems. I mean, yeah its not perfect, and its really a hacker's device at heart, but its great.

So please STOP ranting about how shitty Symbian is. Symbian is not Maemo.

Re: Why Symbian OS is so not friendly at all? How is Maemo?
 

That's interesting to hear about Ovi store, well I usually keep my serial numbers somewhere safe for later use though. Ovi store has a tab called "My Stuff" there I can find everything I have downloaded, wonder if it works the same way as on Android and Appstore. IMO the chance of loosing paid applications after update is quite minimal as I haven't yet seen it happening with those who own 5800.

Re: Why Symbian OS is so not friendly at all? How is Maemo?
 

If Maemo 6 based on Qt will be released before Symbian^4 which is also based on Qt and it will be released at the end of 2011, then maybe Nokia will focus more on Maemo for its devices than on Symbian, which makes more sense, at least for smartphones.

1) How different is Qt C++ and Visual C++ as basic language, and as libraries they base on?

2) On what distrib is Android linux OS based? Debian, Fedora, Slackware, ...? Maemo being Debian.

3) If compared Debian, Fedora, Slackware, etc, what is the diffrence on the architecture (APIs / libraries / components)?

Re: Why Symbian OS is so not friendly at all? How is Maemo?
 

Am I the only one who understood that announcement as Hildon/GTK stuff will not be UPDATED but not broken ? As in it will work, but look weird, out-of-place or sorts (as do non-hildonized things now).

Re: Why Symbian OS is so not friendly at all? How is Maemo?
 

No, I completely agree with you, as a example look at Canola, this app survived to several interactions of maemo, and is built upon a community supported UI toolkit (EFL), it can also happen for the Hildon/GTK apps around :rolleyes:

Re: Why Symbian OS is so not friendly at all? How is Maemo?
 

And, don't forget that INdT has already begun testing some cool "new" Canola features within a Qt framework:

http://blog.eduardofleury.com/archives/2009/04/69/

Tim

Re: Why Symbian OS is so not friendly at all? How is Maemo?
 

I cannot say Symbian is a bad OS as a whole. But if you loose applications and paid applications, this matters to anybody. If the AppManager stops working this matters. Because you cannot configure applications or delete some applications and this is not ok.

Summarizing, what are the problems with Symbian right now:

1. Erasing user applications (during update) - this is happening even if you backup personal data!

2. Erasing user data (during update), with no automatic backup. If Nokia knows the update will erase user data, it can have a little good manners to automatically backup that first, because the process is driven by the computer with Nokia Updater software.

3. AppManager is reportedly stopping working after more installations of applications.
__ * AppManager should not stop working (yes, some installs or uninstalls it is acceptable to fail, but not the manager itself).
__ * Even if the installation fails or it is interrupted, the AppManager should continue to work after that.

4. Even with the latest OTA (update Over The Air) and UDR (user Data Retention) on latest Symbian 3.2 and 5.x, applications will be deleted during update and the re-installed after update. Why this process of deleting applications and re-installing after update? This does not happen in Windows when upgrading to a new SP, and does not happen for iPhone OS or Android. Is this related to the DRM and "Symbian signed" stuff? Some applications survive this process of re-installing, some don't. The bigger problem is some paid applications don't survive.

5. If Nokia doesn't fix this issue with the OS update and broken app re-installation process and doesn't let you re-download a paid app, here is a problem.

6. Ovi store does not let you re-install (or re-download) the paid app even on the same device (AppStore lets you install on 5 devices, the same Android store).

7. Why from time to time the app icons are re-arranged by the system? I put them in different folders and they re-appear in Application folder. Or they appear in other order after some new installations. Or if you install Java 2.0 on s60 v5 the app icons are moved to the application folder from their folders? It seems there is a buggy desktop interface and AppManager. A normal OS these days is not that crappy and buggy in the up-front interface - the app icons desktop.


Now these are the problems with Symbian. Some of them and most of them don't apply to Maemo, but heads up. Because these issues are very inconvenient to the user. So Nokia has to stop complaining most of the Symbain users don't know application can be installed on the phone, or the majority of Symbian phones never installed an application on their phone. Maybe some ringtones, and that's it, no apps. This is normal the users to not use apps, because Symbian is not that ready to handle user applications, from all the above, with its crappy and buggy AppManager which stops working if you install a number of apps or if an install fails.

Re: Why Symbian OS is so not friendly at all? How is Maemo?
 

You're holding your breath for the perfect device OS... right?

Re: Why Symbian OS is so not friendly at all? How is Maemo?
 

Quick, let go of your breath I plead. You will simply die of the waiting !

Re: Why Symbian OS is so not friendly at all? How is Maemo?
 

Not professional :confused: , not a troll, this is a true experience I had with Symbian, yes it is a rant, yes Symbian is a good multi-tasking OS and has its qualities and maybe the classification made by me "Symbian is a big pain" is not fair from other points of view or for other features it has, but for me, at that time, Symbian was very frustrating with its inability to do a nice upgrade without deleting applications installed. Loosing paid applications is not an experience I want for you or anybody. If you are ok with this, that's your way. For me it is totally unfair.

Now, do you have a Symbian device? If yes, ever did a firmware upgrade?

Texrat, before accusing other people, maybe it is fair first to discuss on the thread subject and share your experiences. Or are you a troll?

Re: Why Symbian OS is so not friendly at all? How is Maemo?
 

Maemo is the only thing that will make Nokia to be one of the players in the smartphone market, because Symbian has some drawbacks, some problems with AppManager, app compatibility and OS firmware upgrade issues.
After the Nokia's flagship device N97, launched last month with mixed impressions, Nokia is under a lot of pressure and under the magnifying glass. Everybody expected more from Nokia flagship device. However, mostly the software part of N97 was not top of the line for usability and stability and diversity (number of app titles are not many on Symbian s60v5).
Nokia has now a second chance with N900 Maemo based, in October 2009, to put it right. To compete with iPhone OSX, Android, WinMo, RIM, Palm WebOS, and this will not be a simple job, but the expectation from users is have it right or swithch to other OS (like Android).
As in real life, this second chance with N900, after the semi-failure of the flagship N97, might be the last chance for many users to stay with or embrace Nokia.
This is why Nokia should learn from Symbian issues with compatibility of apps between devices and OS versions, for Symbian issues with the firmware installation process and the stability of AppManager.
Will be Maemo 5 when launched with N900 at the same level as Palm WebOS (based on Linux) or Android (based on Linux) and will overcome the issues in Symbian? Should Nokia try a device with Android, just to see how this OS fits its products diversification, or Maemo is same or even superior compared with Android?

Re: Why Symbian OS is so not friendly at all? How is Maemo?
 

The latest version for N95 8GB (N95-4 NAM) is v20.2.005
If it (NSU) isn't letting you upgrade to this firmware version then you can do this trick of changing the product code by downloading NSS and manually entering in a new product code.

To the guy that started this thread:
You might want to stick to Nokias latest version of PC Suite instead of the recent OVI suite.

Go to howardforums.com and talk to everyone else that owns N95 8GB's there about your N95 8GB
You will get the best info there. Nokia is known for neglecting their Nam N and E series firmware updates as their priority seems to have been euro firmware updates up until now.
The game is changing now however with the Symbian foundation taking over the OS.
Nokia's each move is getting compared to the other manufacturer's moves and Nokia has dropped the Japan market and moved to the US market.
So .... I don't think you are going to get much more than 1 or 2 firmware updates on that N95-4 from this point on.
Any improvements beyond that are going to be hacks or something downloadable from ovi store.
Make sure you always check at symbian-freak.com to see if there is a firmware update and also read the discussions for the articles that interest you.

Re: Why Symbian OS is so not friendly at all? How is Maemo?
 

Nokia needs to have the OS update over-the-air (OTA) done right for Symbian and Maemo. This is essential.
Look at Windows - if there is a security threat or a major update the UPDATE IS PUSHED to the users, does not matter if they are simple or non experienced users or tech savvy: a message box is presented saying in 10 minutes the OS will restart to upgrade and you can postpone this, but the update will be done for sure sooner or later.

Why the update pushed to the users by the OS by automatically downloading the package and automatic upgrade is important?

Because this way all the devices will have the latest OS version, no more trouble to develop apps and support older OS versions, and the customers will receive the latest patches so the user experience will improve. For instance, let's say the next symbian v5 firmware will have user UI goodies like kinetic scroll in lists, animations in UI when an application launches, and this will be applied to all v5 devices automatically, smooth, with no issues like loosing installed applications, then the customers will be happy and love Nokia and trust Nokia as an up-to-date OS promoter. This will build a huge confidence among customers that wake up the next day, see a message saying an update is available, they press yes and after a system restart they have an up-to-date OS. Is this possible for Maemo, if for Symbian is not possible because of secret device APIs?

Re: Why Symbian OS is so not friendly at all? How is Maemo?
 

The issue with this auto update is that some people prefer older versions of OS for running software they have as updates can break currently working software. Also, IT departments often come up with custom fixes for known bugs before official bug fixes. For this reason you want users to have a degree of control over whether and when they install updates.

Re: Why Symbian OS is so not friendly at all? How is Maemo?
 

Application upgrades (and minor OS patches known as SSU) are already 'pushed' this way (that's what the flashing ! tells you). As for complete OS upgrades, that's a different matter (but windows doesn't do that either). The integration between apps and the OS is much stronger on NITs, than on, say Symbian so it's more likely to botch something for (especially) advanced users (think application dependencies, boot menus, custom kbd layouts, etc), that's why a lot of folks think it's not a good idea to do fully automatically/forcefully.

Re: Why Symbian OS is so not friendly at all? How is Maemo?
 

Thanks for that gem, that really lightened my day!
In other news... people are swapping push-bikes for a space shuttle for easier parking.

Re: Why Symbian OS is so not friendly at all? How is Maemo?
 

I actually just bought an e71 with symbian. I like it.

The OS on the phone comes with more options than other platforms with about $300 of added apps. Things like SIP stack, syncml client, printing support, doc xls ppt reading and editing, and on and on.

It also supports lots of connectivity beyond the normal bluetooth and wifi, like FM radio and infrared.

Also, symbian is still somewhat of an open ecosystem unlike iphone app store or palm pre app store, etc, which is good to me.

Oh, and windows mobile sucks, android I find too hard to program for and t-mobile here kind of sucks, and iphone hate is philosophical. I used Palm Treos for years, but they are dying off and maybe symbian is too, but that is my best option right now. Maemo is not a phone OS....yet.

I think OP needs an iphone

Re: Why Symbian OS is so not friendly at all? How is Maemo?
 

Er... just a small question. Did you try downloading trials for some of the ovi store apps u seem to have lost? I had to re-install Gravity in my E71 after a reflash, and I didn't have the serial key, so I just installed the trial to see what happened. Turns out it was locked to my IMEI, so when I installed the so-called trial, it automatically detected I was an owner and registered my software.

Any chance u could get some of ur paid apps this way?

And by the way, I do support the off-topic part. U really are ranting in the wrong forum. Maemo and Symbian are entirely different beasts. They don't have the same structure, they don't have the same philosophy, hell, they probably don't even have a single decision-maker in common involved.

Ur compatibility issues with Maemo are, therefore, a completely different beast. And honestly, it's a good thing they arise, IMHO. It does encourage developers to (at the least) rethink their work in order to take benefit from new features that are implemented. If software for 2.4 Linux, for instance, didn't have to be re-thought of in some way to be used in 2.6, wuld people have made the same effort to make use of 2.6 as they actually did? I honestly think they wouldn't have. And people naturally flocked to 2.6 to benefit from those, didn't they?

I know I did, as I know I will try and download mpre updates for my devices, even being fully aware that it may break existing apps or force me to reinstall them. I think it's usually a fair price to pay to me use of new features developers worked their asses off to implement =)

Re: Why Symbian OS is so not friendly at all? How is Maemo?
 

No, there were no trials for what I downloaded from ovi store.

And don't forget the device does not have to be reset because AppManager is not working anymore in an ideal world. Many other users will just ditch the device if it is not in warranty anymore.

Frankly speaking, for a $700 device, when I can buy a windows netbook for $300 which works 10 times better in regards to upgrade to a different SP, or in regards of stability of "Control Panel/Add/Remove applications" I expected more. I don't have time to dig and try to look in howardforums or in other sites, I installed NSS on my computer to trick my N95 device that is some other sub-version of it, but the NSS itself is not intuitive and as I said, I have no time. I lost some applications, be it. I'm not using the device anymore that much. Sad, but Symbian is a lost OS for me.

There are things that need to be underlined maybe Nokia will get it right in Maemo, if they scrwed it on s60. s60 is Nokia's gui layer and api framework.

I read that article about Japanese cell phone makers that have 3rd generation network capabilities, they have tons of MP cameras on phones, HD video, television, 3D television, the web browsing in Japan is mostly on mobile phones and not on computers, but they don't have a single OS platform to rival with iPhone OSX. They have a fragmented market every producer with its OS, but none of them have the "easy to use", "user friendly" and "eye catching" interface that iPhone has... and they recognize that and with their long phone development experience look at this newcomer, Apple, and they recognize the UI of OSX is top of the line. Symbian foundation has head-quarters in USA and in Japan.. Hopefully they will improve before Symbian RIP...

What Maemo and Nokia can learn from this is users want a system more friendly than Windows, like OSX is. And Windows is friendly compared to Symbian...