Re: Is Freemantle dead before it's out of the gates?
 

Tim, ^that bit has been bothering me for a few days now.

While I agree that "thinking that all of this is a big deal for end-users (the larger market of end-users, not just us) is wrong" and that this is really a developer discussion... because of the dismal support collateral provided by Nokia for the tablets in the past, just about every NIT user visited ITT... if only out of necessity.

Unless Nokia plans on providing additional channels of support for Fremantle/Harmattan, that won't change. Except now they/we will be coming to maemo.org instead. :)

Re: Is Freemantle dead before it's out of the gates?
 

Hmmm... I don't know. Do you have numbers? ;)

I know two NIT owners (my cousin and a former coworker) who love their out-of-the-box tablets and have never been here (or itT). Sure, that's not a lot, but if we all knew two...

Tim

Re: Is Freemantle dead before it's out of the gates?
 

Ditto, I know at least three.

There's a collective arrogance that ITT/tmo is the place where every NIT owner goes and knows that's prevalent here. If nothing else, there are lots of non-English Maemo websites with users who never come here.

Re: Is Freemantle dead before it's out of the gates?
 

I know my brother and sister--in-law have N810's and they don't come to this site. I installed a couple of programs when the first got them after seeing mine (Canola, mplayer, etc..). Setup modest to pull their email and they have never looked back. I imagine only 30% of tablet owners have ever come to this site. Not saying this isn't a good site, but most casual users buy things for the out of the box experience. If it suites their needs they keep it, if not it is returned.

Most issues discussed on this site are for enthusiasts not typical end users.

Re: Is Freemantle dead before it's out of the gates?
 

My extrapolator was much more exacting:

A Nokia maintained Harmattan OS will not run on an n900.

Re: Is Freemantle dead before it's out of the gates?
 

I would have agreed; if the developers actually delivered something regularly for the platform.

They didn't. They waited for the fixes, they're coming in Fremantle. Those fixes will be temporary, on it's way to Harmattan.

It has more to do with user perception simply because the developers didn't do **** this iteration and are going to be limited in the next iteration.

As a developer, I had to wait for Adobe Flex to go from headache 1.0/1.01 to semi-usable 1.5 to worthwhile 2.0, quickly replaced with 3.0 and presently beta-testing 4.0 and not finding myself looking backwards.

Yet, I had to deliver each and every step. Is my view skewed? Of course. But to push any type of discussions under the rug with blanket, self-fulfilling statements like "it's a developer problem", "it'll make sense in the future", "you'll change your mind with the press releases"... seriously. That's a call of faith.

No prior product or support to have faith in, that creates bad perception... by developer and user alike.

Only fanboys and hopefuls will fall into line. And to treat skeptics with such disregard... alarming. Each view is worth discussion.

Sorta what a forum is all about. Seems like a few of you people want no discussion, just a group of sheep instead.

Again, perception.

Re: Is Freemantle dead before it's out of the gates?
 

Wow... and the heads go into the sand once again.:rolleyes:

If we all knew 2 then Nokia would have something now wouldn't they?

BTW, did these 2 own a tablet before the seamless software update? Did they ever re-flash? How many of your conversations with them involve the question "How do I (insert NIT subject here)..."?


I am not trying to start a pissing contest here and whatever numbers I might use are meaningless with out context but there are only 474 apps here >> http://maemo.org/downloads/OS2008/

Even if each project had 5 individual and distinct team members, that is only 2370 developers total. :eek:

I believe there are quite a few more members here than 2400 and unless we are all involved in projects that haven't been developed before, one could argue that what remains are users. In fact I would argue we are all everyday, run of the mill device users first and developers, bon vivants, and/or hangers on second. :)

Over the past 2 and a half years my NIT has developed into a useful tool that I use everyday. I have no complaints. :cool:

Re: Is Freemantle dead before it's out of the gates?
 

So since I don't know not one other person that owns a NIT, how does that factor in?

Re: Is Freemantle dead before it's out of the gates?
 

I can only speak to my father, but...

Yes. He's had an N800 since Chinook Bora, and he's not spoken of any trouble.

Yes, to Chinook and then Diablo. He didn't mention any problems; he only said he liked the updated look and enhanced performance.

None. He bought his tablet for web browsing and email at coffee shops, and he seems happy enough using it for that. He didn't want to carry a notebook, and he didn't want the small screen and large monthly cost of a smartphone.

Re: Is Freemantle dead before it's out of the gates?
 

No, as has been said before (talking about head in the sand . . . we've got a bad case of fingers in ears here :rolleyes:), maemo.nokia.com will be the place for regular users to go for support.

Re: Is Freemantle dead before it's out of the gates?
 

I provided about 18 tablets to friends, colleagues and family.

I am the only one of that group to visit ITT.

Re: Is Freemantle dead before it's out of the gates?
 

Well then... I stand corrected...

Nokia has provided plenty of support for the tablets and has not relied on this community to answer questions like "where is the swap key?" after releasing an update days before a company wide, two week holiday...

My bad... I must not have drank the same kool-aid as some. :p


EDIT: Added...

Where? A Google search of maemo.nokia.com comes back to here. If you are talking about the future then when?


Talk about developers vs. users seems to suck the enthusiasm out this for me at least.

What's so hard about saying we are all users of the device and we don't separate this community into factions?

Is it safer for some to feel they belong to some elite sub-group or suttin'?

My comment about heads in the sand referred to a belief that a new user of a Maemo device wouldn't come here... They will. Just as they have after each time buy.com or whoever lowers their price. When a new device hits the market they will come here again... unless maemo.nokia.com does something magical to Google page rank. :eek:

Be prepared to answer this threads question as well as many other questions, over and over, all over again. :)

Re: Is Freemantle dead before it's out of the gates?
 

I'd expect Nokia to keep tabs on how many individual tablets have been updated to new (incl. which) versions of firmware.

I personally found ITT even before I began hunting for my tablet (I reckoned it being open source any software updates would be more-or-less future-proof so the half-bakedness didn't bother me all that much...), so I haven't kept an eye on the upgrade and community information Nokia dispenses via their official channels.

What kind of information does a new and relatively inexperienced user get from Nokia without googling the right keywords and getting lucky?

Most improvements to Chinook/Diablo user experience require at least some elbow grease and the user experience of the plain standard install is also decaying due to cruft and with web standards and app compatibilities moving forward.

So, how does this relate to Fremantle's potential "stillborn" status and the community?

I wonder what percentage of Nokia tablet owners are genuinely happy with the level of support (incl. software updates - also by major partners- and present/future platform support). Bonus points for breaking up that stat between 1) those who've never updated anything, 2) those who simply flashed an upgrade, 3) those who've been to ITT but didn't stick around, and 4) us die-hard users and developers.

One of the keys to a healthy community is keeping the potential members involved or interested (and also not fragmented). I don't think I've ever received any communication from Nokia about anything related to the tablets.

Re: Is Freemantle dead before it's out of the gates?
 

They can't ,really. You may have to enter the WLAN MAC address to access the firmware downloads, but once you download an image you can flash any number of devices with it.
SSU updates make it even harder, as the downloads are "anonymous" (and does Akamai even provide http access logs?)

Re: Is Freemantle dead before it's out of the gates?
 

That's not a valid comparison IMHO. Historically Qtopia on Openmoko drew directly on the framebuffer, while the Neo X server had very poor performance. On Maemo both GTK+ and Qt run on top of X11, and the devices have decent display hardware (2D at least) acceleration.

Re: Is Freemantle dead before it's out of the gates?
 

Which developers? Whilst Diablo's been out we've had Tear, FlipClock, and many others. But you're right; Diablo's been a maintenance release so the flurry of stuff for Chinook's carried through to Diablo.

As for Fremantle, external developers are already doing cool things and are excited about the increased CPU power, 3D acceleration, accelerometers and more compelling UI.

If you're talking about Nokia developers, I don't see your point.

People are discussing it. But because some are disagreeing with you there's a sub-conscious conspiracy of fanboys to silence any dissent from the company line? Pfft.

As for the Gtk+ -> Qt transition, it's not unexpected; we'll probably lose some developers and gain some new ones. Development will become easier and more consistent (certainly easier to avoid Scratchbox with things like PyQt).

The increased disk space rumoured to be coming in the next generation of devices means that a package pulling in Gtk from Extras will be no harder, or troublesome, than pulling in Python now.

Re: Is Freemantle dead before it's out of the gates?
 

iirc, fremantle will be the first maemo release to use a full X11, diable and earlier use a more limited version on top of framebuffer...

Re: Is Freemantle dead before it's out of the gates?
 

What "flurry" of apps? I've listed out what has not been updated since Chinook or early 2008 mostly in another thread: Skype, Gizmo, Evince, Xournal, MPlayer, RTComm, MicroB, Flash Player, Media Player, Maps. And I've stated what has been updated: Tear, DialCentral, Mauku, the Home Apps (HomeIP, et al)...

There was no flurry of apps. A few applets here and there, or the apps that came from Fiferboy - Personal Launcher, Yellow Notes 0.2, etc. - were... for the most part all that I installed and wanted. The rest weren't anywhere near ready for primetime.

And yet the accelerometer apps for the iPhone here are dismissed as gimmick. Same thing to be honest.

Where are the apps that people actually want/use that are commercial? Adobe FP10 - we have to wait for the Open Screen initiative because... well, it could have been updated but hasn't been - blame Adobe or Nokia. Where's the updated browser and not the dead end fork that we still use today? Where's the RTComm that uses the included camera and Skype that's been updated since December 2007?

I don't want another flip clock. I have a watch, I have a cellphone, I have a clock widget on the NIT already. That's like having 8 different ways to edit a text file. Do I need 8 different ways to edit a *.txt file? No. Waste of space.

See above. Browser, Maps, RTComm, et al. None of it, updated yet supplied by Nokia. Which part of it has not been updated by Nokia since less than a year after the N810 release are you willing to deny?

You people are just being unrealistic. Sure, Fremantle is being discussed. Diablo was born dead. Chinook is dead. Bora, extremely dead. I get it. But Fremantle... soon to die too. Harmattan is where people are already looking.

And I have no reason to join the next iteration because of how I saw it go from the 770 to N800/N810 to this upcoming model in about 3 years and support lasting only one year on a non-phone but pocket computer (basically)... sorry, but my gadgets aren't that disposable.

So I'll be waiting on Qt, Harmattan and watching the N900 basically become obselete by next Winter (2010)... about a year after its release.

With the talks going on, even a cursory glance supports what I just said. The N900 will not be anything but replaced soon thereafter, Harmattan is where Nokia might actually stop killing parts of this Maemo platform and deprecating main UI bits and settle in on an upgrade path that makes sense.

Right now, all I see is Mobile Windows 2003/2003 Second Edition all over again. Only with root access and more fanaticism.

Re: Is Freemantle dead before it's out of the gates?
 

Gerbick's impressions point to what I am thinking.

I believe Nokia has used the tablets N770 - N810 as stepping stones towards a future of Linux pocketables.
Someone from Nokia spoke of steps 1 to 5, N810 beeing nr. 3.

My guess is that Nokia has focused their software development on the future pocket Linux OS,
and used the tablets to communicate with the Linux community.
Of course the tablets had to be useful for consumers, but I guess that Nokia will target more professional use
first with "step 5 (4?)". Nr. 5 = Harmattan ? Or Harmattan+ ?

E.g.:
Surfing on complex websites with many photos is a bit slow, many pro's would want more power before they consider leaving their laptop at home.
In Sweden shops have never had these tablets in stock, although we are rather gadget minded.
You could buy them from web stores, or order them at your dealer, but then he'd expect you to buy.

Consider Nokias strategy of (heavily) bying into supporting development, and at the same time preparing a continuation of Symbian more independant of Nokia.

Re: Is Freemantle dead before it's out of the gates?
 

Would you have a link to where Nokia talked about '1-5'?

Re: Is Freemantle dead before it's out of the gates?
 

iirc, the n810 is still step 2. And the steps are neither software nor hardware based, again iirc. Basically, its some kind of nebulous plan that by now may well have been altered...

Re: Is Freemantle dead before it's out of the gates?
 

Sorry, I'm afraid I don't remember.
Sometime around last november / december.
After the big announcement (or in it ?) of maemo 5, I think.
Check the threads in ITT where upcoming, and then announced, maemo 5 was discussed.


EDIT:
Possibly it was maemo 5 that was called step 3. ?.

Re: Is Freemantle dead before it's out of the gates?
 

to be honest, i am starting to suspect it was just a saying to indicate that nokia was in for the long haul when it came to the tablets, rather then some side project they would drop at the first moment of trouble.

kinda like those 5 step programs to get something done with ones life...
(not the most confidence building comparison maybe, but still...)

Re: Is Freemantle dead before it's out of the gates?
 

References to the 5 steps...
http://jaaksi.blogspot.com/2008/09/o...ith-maemo.html

and the related presentation:
http://www.slideshare.net/silpol/nok...-presentation/

Re: Is Freemantle dead before it's out of the gates?
 

That talks about the "5th iteration of Maemo" - which means Maemo 5, i.e. Fremantle which'll be running on Rover. Unless I missed it on a quick re-review, there's nothing there which refers to the 2005/2006 memes of Nokia's "5 step plan" for Maemo devices.

However, it's been made clear that market conditions have changed; and any "5 step plan" conceived in 2005 has not survived unchanged into 2009.

Re: Is Freemantle dead before it's out of the gates?
 

Not I. When I got my 770 in late 2005, I had a Sharp Zaurus C760 which was already a couple of years old. Although its hardware showed its age, using it felt much snappier than OS2005 on the 770...

Re: Is Freemantle dead before it's out of the gates?
 

It's too bad that nokia will break compatibility with it's previous tablets with this new release.

Re: Is Freemantle dead before it's out of the gates?
 

It's not really "broken". Pretty much anything should be pretty much recompilable. However, we (as a community) are raising the bar for Extras' applications so that apps should be updated to the new HIG, development standards and UI controls available to them.

Re: Is Freemantle dead before it's out of the gates?
 

I think that someone in this thread once estimated that there were a million tablet owners out there, or some similarly giant number. That seemed unlikely to me at the time, but -- does anyone know how many unique visitors have come to this site, approximately? I doubt if a million have.

Re: Is Freemantle dead before it's out of the gates?
 

How many iPod owners do you think have ever been to the apple.com site? My wife never has -- she doesn't care. She has a device that works well enough with iTunes (in Windows 2000 for that matter).

On top of that, how many tablet owners do you think have gone to the nokia.com site? Probably a lot more than have come here. But, most likely, still much less than the actual customer base.

Tim