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-   -   RX-51 Tablet picture released at Engadget (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=30717)

DarkLight 2009-08-10 20:56

Re: RX-51 Tablet picture released at Engadget
 
Here is an update from boygeniusreport: http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2009/...or-the-camera/

qole 2009-08-10 21:14

Re: RX-51 Tablet picture released at Engadget
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by drizek (Post 310208)
If they add a bar at the bottom of the terminal which has all our favorite buttons, it would be the best of both worlds. That way you won't even have to press a modifier key to get buttons like pipe or tilde.

I hope the bar is on the side. Vertical real estate (only 480 pixels) is so precious... Please take some from the 800 pixels we have horizontally.

Laughing Man 2009-08-10 21:15

Re: RX-51 Tablet picture released at Engadget
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by drizek (Post 310208)
If they add a bar at the bottom of the terminal which has all our favorite buttons, it would be the best of both worlds. That way you won't even have to press a modifier key to get buttons like pipe or tilde.

Also: I see no reason not to have cellphone capabilities. I assume everyone already has a cellphone, so why keep lugging it around when you can get all the ufnctionality and more in the tablet you already take everywhere with you. THen theres the whole 3G thing that makes the "walkaround web" actually real. Since this is progbably going to TMobile, thats a $25/month charge for unlimited internets and 400 SMSs. It's not bad(AT&T charges 30/month for internet and an additional .20/each sms, or 5/200, or 15/1000, or 20/unlimited).

Edit: Unlimted text/internet from TMobile is $30 combined, but with Google Voice, I doubt I will be sending old school sms.

Really? When I looked into it for an Android phone (gf is also on TMobile) I thought it was more for data..

YoDude 2009-08-10 21:19

Re: RX-51 Tablet picture released at Engadget
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkLight (Post 310595)
Here is an update from boygeniusreport: http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2009/...or-the-camera/

The same info and pics that have been posted here over the last several days and somewhere on the net last month... The boy may be a genius but he must be one of them sl-o-o-o-w genius's or suttin'. :D

lma 2009-08-10 21:50

Re: RX-51 Tablet picture released at Engadget
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by qole (Post 310601)
I hope the bar is on the side. Vertical real estate (only 480 pixels) is so precious... Please take some from the 800 pixels we have horizontally.

In beta 2 it's still horizontal (pretty much the same as on Diablo), but it's not configurable or hide-able.

SD69 2009-08-10 23:00

Re: RX-51 Tablet picture released at Engadget
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lma (Post 310616)
In beta 2 it's still horizontal (pretty much the same as on Diablo), but it's not configurable or hide-able.

Yea, what happened to the full screen button and what's going to replace it? The multi-tasking is key and we don't know yet how that will work.

qgil 2009-08-11 05:52

Re: RX-51 Tablet picture released at Engadget
 
All this fuzz about osso-xterm... Why don't you simply add yourselves to https://garage.maemo.org/projects/osso-xterm/ and start contributing there? :)

Gabriel has been taking Fremantle patches, although something like a vertical bar should probably be discussed before. Still, it's all open source so if you want to give it a try...

qole 2009-08-11 05:57

Re: RX-51 Tablet picture released at Engadget
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by qgil (Post 310721)
All this fuzz about osso-xterm...

Quim, you've been here long enough to know that, to us geeks, XTerm is core functionality!

So yeah, we need to know about the pipe character. ;)

qgil 2009-08-11 07:04

Re: RX-51 Tablet picture released at Engadget
 
This is why I'm surprised about speculation on a piece of software that has open source code, is open to contributions and can be tested in the Fremantle SDK since the alpha release. :)

lma 2009-08-11 07:48

Re: RX-51 Tablet picture released at Engadget
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SD69 (Post 310627)
Yea, what happened to the full screen button and what's going to replace it?

Full-screen is still there, but it just removes the title/status bar. There's currently no way to tell osso-xterm to hide the toolbar in full-screen mode like you could in earlier versions. (Not a complaint, I fully expect that to change by the time it's released).

lma 2009-08-11 07:58

Re: RX-51 Tablet picture released at Engadget
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by qgil (Post 310721)
All this fuzz about osso-xterm... Why don't you simply add yourselves to https://garage.maemo.org/projects/osso-xterm/ and start contributing there? :)

Speaking of which, there's been a disappointing lack of response to bug 3929 (Requesting integration of some community supplied XTerm enhancements) so far. Just bringing it up here in case the right people have not seen it yet.

tso 2009-08-11 08:23

Re: RX-51 Tablet picture released at Engadget
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by qgil (Post 310731)
This is why I'm surprised about speculation on a piece of software that has open source code, is open to contributions and can be tested in the Fremantle SDK since the alpha release. :)

unless i have missed a VM release, the SDK appears to be a ***** to set up, especially if all you plan on doing is toy around...

Milhouse 2009-08-11 09:28

Re: RX-51 Tablet picture released at Engadget
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lma (Post 310742)
Speaking of which, there's been a disappointing lack of response to bug 3929 (Requesting integration of some community supplied XTerm enhancements) so far. Just bringing it up here in case the right people have not seen it yet.

I must admit I was biting my tongue over that bug. :)

@Quim: Good to see Nokia finally giving you the resources you and your team have deserved from it's inception. It's pretty obvious Nokia are now in an awkward situation with Symbian floundering for the next 12-18 months and Maemo left as their potential "get out of jail free" card.

The RX-51 hardware looks nice and certainly has the spec to succeed, although it's too early to say anything about the UI on Maemo5 as it's yet to be seen in it's fully glory (maybe it's time to "leak" some YouTube videos!)

As ever it's likely the rest of Nokia and their knuckle headed management will be your biggest obstacles to success, but hopefully the grim future facing Nokia in the high-end device market will ensure such obstacles are cleared from your path with the minimum of fuss.

One challenge that still needs to be addressed is the need for more openness in the bug filing & reporting process from Nokia/Maemo engineers - in future Maemo will need a community, developers and mind-share more than ever! :)

fms 2009-08-11 10:22

Re: RX-51 Tablet picture released at Engadget
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by drizek (Post 310208)
If they add a bar at the bottom of the terminal which has all our favorite buttons, it would be the best of both worlds. That way you won't even have to press a modifier key to get buttons like pipe or tilde.

Oh, god, please, not the bottom again! The screen has got some extra (in terms of 4:3 terminal window ratio) space on the side. Add it to a side! Do not take precious vertical space.

GeneralAntilles 2009-08-11 12:47

Re: RX-51 Tablet picture released at Engadget
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by qgil (Post 310731)
This is why I'm surprised about speculation on a piece of software that has open source code, is open to contributions and can be tested in the Fremantle SDK since the alpha release. :)

Easy, because what's apparently open code, isn't actually open code at all (see Hildon), but old code or only partially updated code that's sitting in a repo waiting for the go-ahead to release the real code.

Open is OK when things are actually open, but as it stands, half the "open" components out there are nothing of the sort. Then by the time they actually attain real open status again after a release Nokia is going to have moved on into maintenance mode and wont expend any effort on addressing community bugs and enhancement requests (not even, seemingly, when those bugs comes with perfectly good patches).

So, no, you can't have it both ways here. Either you actually do your development in the community by getting your developers and managers out and participating in the community and stop with the code-over-the-wall insanity or you end this "open" fiction.

daperl 2009-08-11 14:43

Re: RX-51 Tablet picture released at Engadget
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by fms (Post 310772)
Oh, god, please, not the bottom again! The screen has got some extra (in terms of 4:3 terminal window ratio) space on the side. Add it to a side! Do not take precious vertical space.

Where there's a will there's a way. I know I'm a crappy UI designer, but someone has to come up with an elegant solution to save vertical real estate in landscape mode.

Attachment 3899

fpp 2009-08-11 14:52

Re: RX-51 Tablet picture released at Engadget
 
ROTFL... I believe it was all about the toolbar, not the virtual keyboard :-)

daperl 2009-08-11 15:02

Re: RX-51 Tablet picture released at Engadget
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fpp (Post 310828)
ROTFL... I believe it was all about the toolbar, not the virtual keyboard :-)

I'm glad I was able to give you a good chuckle, but my point was that everything can go on the side, even a keyboard. :)

fms 2009-08-11 17:16

Re: RX-51 Tablet picture released at Engadget
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by daperl (Post 310827)
Where there's a will there's a way. I know I'm a crappy UI designer, but someone has to come up with an elegant solution to save vertical real estate in landscape mode.

I hate to disappoint you, but there is much easier way to have a decent on-screen keyboard in XTerm. Simply overlay it over entire screen: as XTerm itself rarely requires mouse input, you can just as well use the whole screen as a virtual keyboard.

PS: In fact, this modification has already been applied to the current Diablo XTerm, quite successfully.

tso 2009-08-11 17:19

Re: RX-51 Tablet picture released at Engadget
 
anywhere one can download said modded xterm?

qole 2009-08-11 19:14

Re: RX-51 Tablet picture released at Engadget
 
According to Quim in the comments of Bug 3929, someone needs to open a specific bug asking that the toolbar(s) get moved to the side instead of the bottom, or even better, a way to move the toolbar(s) to any edge (left, right, top, bottom) the user prefers. And you also need to provide a patch to do it, so that the osso-xterm guy, Gabriel, can add it.

(Well, there's no guarantee that he'll add it, but I wish I was a programmer so I could try anyway.)

Any programmers out there able to provide this patch? Or is there a version already out there that can have the relevant code diff'ed out and posted as a patch?

mikkov 2009-08-11 19:26

Re: RX-51 Tablet picture released at Engadget
 
1 Attachment(s)
Here's a screenshot of current osso-xterm in fremantle SDK

fnordianslip 2009-08-11 19:32

Re: RX-51 Tablet picture released at Engadget
 
Is bash in freemantle, or must we suffer busybox again?

fnord

Jaffa 2009-08-11 21:13

Re: RX-51 Tablet picture released at Engadget
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fnordianslip (Post 310933)
Is bash in freemantle, or must we suffer busybox again?

Why would Nokia ship it if they don't need to? If you want it, use apt-get (and probably don't make bash symlinked from /bin/sh).

lma 2009-08-11 23:08

Re: RX-51 Tablet picture released at Engadget
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fms (Post 310876)
as XTerm itself rarely requires mouse input

Well, you need it to select text and (in Fremantle) scroll.

lma 2009-08-11 23:13

Re: RX-51 Tablet picture released at Engadget
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fnordianslip (Post 310933)
Is bash in freemantle, or must we suffer busybox again?

It is in the repository, but that's probably just for scratchbox (as in Diablo). Bash is the default interactive shell in Mer though (/bin/sh is dash).

GeneralAntilles 2009-08-12 00:03

Re: RX-51 Tablet picture released at Engadget
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fnordianslip (Post 310933)
Is bash in freemantle, or must we suffer busybox again?

Well, the busybox shipping with Fremantle is newer and has many more features enabled.

The performance benefits of using busybox over GNUtils and bash are non-trivial. Although power users may be making some sacrifices with busybox, the vast majority of users will appreciate significantly improved startup times.

daperl 2009-08-12 00:41

Re: RX-51 Tablet picture released at Engadget
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fms (Post 310876)
I hate to disappoint you, but there is much easier way to have a decent on-screen keyboard in XTerm. Simply overlay it over entire screen: as XTerm itself rarely requires mouse input, you can just as well use the whole screen as a virtual keyboard.

PS: In fact, this modification has already been applied to the current Diablo XTerm, quite successfully.

I own a nice ssh client that uses keyboard and function overlays. For quick stuff here and there it works fine. And maybe even for text messages or forum posts a translucent keyboard would be reasonable. But I often edit and stare at code, and I've found my side keyboard terminal program to be the most productive solution at the moment. My opinion is that being really productive on a smart phone is an open frontier, and I'm not convinced we've seen the best solutions yet. And if an apathetic person like myself gave it a try, it's likely others are thinking about it also. Maybe.

lma 2009-08-12 01:59

Re: RX-51 Tablet picture released at Engadget
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles (Post 311050)
Well, the busybox shipping with Fremantle is newer and has many more features enabled.

However it's been frozen at 1.10.2 since at least prealpha2 (it wasn't included in the first one) which is getting a bit long in the tooth now, and is not even the latest 1.10 patchlevel (which had already been 6 months old at the time prealpha2 came out).

Quote:

The performance benefits of using busybox over GNUtils and bash are non-trivial. Although power users may be making some sacrifices with busybox, the vast majority of users will appreciate significantly improved startup times.
Busybox ash sucks as an interactive shell. With the extra rootfs legroom in Fremantle having bash preinstalled and used as root's and user's login shell by default (while keeping ash as /bin/sh) would make "power" users happy without sacrificing performance or delaying startup.

nwerneck 2009-08-12 02:57

Re: RX-51 Tablet picture released at Engadget
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mikkov (Post 310930)
Here's a screenshot of current osso-xterm in fremantle SDK

What is this strange and bad looking font that is being used in Fremantle anyway? Where is the marvelous Nokia font? I am a big fan of the Nokia font, I love it that many applications use it in Maemo... The xterm, for example, uses it in the toolbox. What is this skinny thing they are trying to make us swallow??

GeneralAntilles 2009-08-12 03:08

Re: RX-51 Tablet picture released at Engadget
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lma (Post 311073)
Busybox ash sucks as an interactive shell. With the extra rootfs legroom in Fremantle having bash preinstalled and used as root's and user's login shell by default (while keeping ash as /bin/sh) would make "power" users happy without sacrificing performance or delaying startup.

This, however, increases platform complexity, adds packages to support and increases testing time. It'd be much simpler for some fine community member (yourself, perhaps) to put together a small package and upload it to Extras. Then Nokia isn't saddled with lots of extras support costs, and you can get exactly what you want.

That's the nice thing about this platform, if you've got an itch then scratch it!

qwerty12 2009-08-12 03:09

Re: RX-51 Tablet picture released at Engadget
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nwerneck (Post 311085)
What is this strange and bad looking font that is being used in Fremantle anyway? Where is the marvelous Nokia font? I am a big fan of the Nokia font, I love it that many applications use it in Maemo... The xterm, for example, uses it in the toolbox. What is this skinny thing they are trying to make us swallow??

That's just a screenshot from the SDK. The SDKs have never included the Nokia font used on the device.[1]

http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=306774&postcount=1 shows a screenshot of Fremantle running on a real device, displaying the Nokia font, in the title bar, which we've all come to love.

[1] A default install of the Fremantle SDK does not include it, like its predecessors, but, this time, with the Fremantle SDK, it can be installed after adding the nokia-binaries repository: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...2&postcount=75
Thanks Yerga ;)

volt 2009-08-12 07:27

Re: RX-51 Tablet picture released at Engadget
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SD69 (Post 310121)
Well, it's not as bad as we feared and could have had far less physical buttons in going for that new, modern sleek design look. We sort of guessed it was going to be a phone and that they were going to take away the dpad. But we still have directional keys, the zoom keys, and some others - lock key(?), fullscreen key(?), menu key(?). Not a bad result when compared with expectations a few months ago.

What is a dedicated tab button, pipe, etc? Is there another device which has that?

I don't see how they could have had any much fewer physical keys. I have yet to see a phone with keyboard that doesn't have some sort of directional keys. The zoom buttons aren't on the keyboard and that balances that most every phone has the same key and uses it for a volume key. The fullscreen key balances the standard camera shutter button, and menu keys are as essential for the Maemo platform as a Windows key for the Windows platform.

One of the problems with this keyboard is that there's no obvious way to use common european characters without removing common punctuation or other much-used characters from the Sym charset. Another is that it's less useable for typical linux terminal tasks, like " | more " or " | grep " - and this community is much about linux terminal tasks.

Of course, we can always use a bluetooth keyboard, but then they could've made a more Diamond2-like device.

attila77 2009-08-12 07:38

Re: RX-51 Tablet picture released at Engadget
 
What I found funny is that the chr key was grossly underutilized on the N810 (e.g. why menu when you could do chr+e for é as such). We can only guess what kdb input is possible with the N900 - the basics are clear but (hopefully) there are a few tricks up Nokias sleeve, maybe through some funky ctrl-shift-fn combo, or dynamic layouts (wouldn't it bee cool for layouts to change when you switch from terminal to composing mail ? or swap kbdmaps with fn-enter or sorts ?). So, it's nut just in the number of keys, but with less keys you have to be smarter on the usability side. We'll see how that plays out.

yerga 2009-08-12 09:44

Re: RX-51 Tablet picture released at Engadget
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by qwerty12 (Post 311088)
That's just a screenshot from the SDK. The SDKs have never included the Nokia font used on the device.

http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=306774&postcount=1 shows a screenshot of Fremantle running on a real device, displaying the Nokia font, in the title bar, which we've all come to love.

It isn't completely true ;-)

The device font is available in Fremantle SDK installing the ui-fonts package: http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/mae...ly/019981.html

lma 2009-08-12 10:46

Re: RX-51 Tablet picture released at Engadget
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles (Post 311087)
This, however, increases platform complexity, adds packages to support and increases testing time.

That's an entirely different conversation. I'm just saying you can have bash as the default interactive shell without impacting system performance or boot time.

But since you brought it up, it's not like ash-as-interactive-shell comes without its own support problems.

Quote:

It'd be much simpler for some fine community member (yourself, perhaps) to put together a small package and upload it to Extras.
FYI, that's a solved problem: bash packages are already available both in Extras and in the SDK repository, and the Extras one comes with a simple tool (bash-setup) to change your default interactive shell.

qgil 2009-08-12 11:10

Re: RX-51 Tablet picture released at Engadget
 
1 Attachment(s)
fwiw this is how x-term looks today in full screen splendour. If you want to keep this discussion, feel free opening a new thread since this topic has deviated a lot from the original post. Thanks!

lardman 2009-08-12 11:17

Re: RX-51 Tablet picture released at Engadget
 
Hmm, Debian 3:1.10.2.legal-1osso26+0m5

I suppose that implies there was an illegal version somewhere?

lma 2009-08-12 11:26

Re: RX-51 Tablet picture released at Engadget
 
The legal-1osso* busybox version suffix has been there since chinook at least, no idea why.

debernardis 2009-08-12 14:56

Re: RX-51 Tablet picture released at Engadget
 
The major Italian financial newsper sports an article on the Rover:
http://www.ilsole24ore.com/art/SoleO...lesView=Libero

Suits are now informed :)


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