Re: Most maemo apps are buttafaces
 

I'm not saying you NEED custom design, it was a suggestion as I did not understand the whole reason why so many apps that I see look terrible.

If it can be done as is with elements that exist, then so be it. I just want things to look good.

Re: Most maemo apps are buttafaces
 

The reason is that they are very early in development. Look at some of the more mature apps and you'll see that actually most look quite nice and are very usable.

EVERYTHING is possible, i'm betting there's much more freedom to customize than in iphone or android, you can change the whole UI framework, like with QT, or ELF or what have you. You can add all kinds of custom effects and whiz bangs. Look at some of the proof of concepts posted in Maemo-Planet.

Re: Most maemo apps are buttafaces
 

I'm with Joshua. We need a concerted effort to make apps look better. How about we have a council or group or graphic artists that work together to work on app UIs? Most of the apps are free, and there's little incentive to make them do anything but work and adhere to the Fremantle standards. But if devs could finish the basics and pass them on to the UI Task Force for beatification, we'd have much more glamorous and sleek looking apps.

From day one, Joshua has been offering his graphical services free of charge, as his signature shows. Evidently not many are taking him up on his offer, but probably should. Apps could look a bit better, imo. I think he's just frustrated that there hasn't been more of a focus on UI and graphical elements in applications.

No offense, but not ugly. Just needing improvement. I'd love for Joshua to get ahold of Dial Central. It is confusing as to what it even does from a glance, and I think screen real estate could be used more efficiently without so many tabs. But I'm a big epage and DC fan, so I want that to be known. Just if Dial Central were an iPhone or WebOS app, it'd be laughed off the screen. We need to step up our game, and look past function and more into design as well. An inviting app can make a simple utility a hit. Look at IM apps, and the best looking usually win, regardless if its less feature complete.

And that Twitter app did look pretty bad. I hope he's able to update the UI soon, because I need a more feature packed Twitter app. Hahlo is ok, but I want something faster.

Hard to vote with dollars on free software...
Man, tex. You a few years earlier, and I'd nominate you to write a book in the Bible. Well put. You've got conversation and writing in your blood, and we all know conversation rules the nation. Ever thought about pimping? We could be rich! I'll be the banker and enforcer, you be the recruiter and motivational speaker.

"Now go get that paper, b***hes!! Let's go!"

lol...

Re: Most maemo apps are buttafaces
 

Why not just try to help people with poor user interfaces?

Re: Most maemo apps are buttafaces
 

Thats what I want to do, but it's hard to go around hunting for poorly designed apps, it would be better if developers came and "hired" designers wouldn't it?

Re: Most maemo apps are buttafaces
 

I think that "better looking" can be very highly subjective, and to improve the looks by adding graphics can go beyond the line of making an app pretty and transform into a mess.

That being said, and with all due respects to Daniel Would, a way to improve his twitter app might be; to add icons to the buttons: a little clock next to timeline, a face talking next to mentions, a letter with an arrow in direct messages, a magnifying lens next to search, etc etc.Oh, and drop the blue color for the user names... I would use dark gray.

Now, on to themes themselves: the point Joshua made are that the buttons are just rectangles with rounded edges. If you compare them with the buttons on the iPhone or Palm Pre, you will notice that the buttons have gradients and shadow effects, that make them look a bit 3D, like emerging from the screen. More visually satisfying. And the background, instead of a plain color, could be a very diffused graphic of the current background wallpaer... or a picture of the Tweeter bird in watermark...

The question would be if Fremantle UI accepts this kind of improvements by default.

I said something similar (with pics) here: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...6&postcount=47

Re: Most maemo apps are buttafaces
 

Going to come back and back to this thread often.

Force is a hard word, but you can be persuasive. Take Yerga adn WordPy. I really liked that app, and felt like you did. But I needed to make sure that in asking about what's possible to improve, that I also offered items to him that were doable.

A great looking UI also has an excellent process flow. If you will, seperate content from presentation from functionality. And so, with that app, the functionality was there, however the content couldn't flow with the user's expectations. We fixed that, and now the presentation layer can come in and be further cleaned up.

The UI was successful enough to move to Maemo 5 with little major changes to the presentation layer (icons and a few menus here and there).

Such successes come when a solution is presented, not just a critique. And I know you know this, so I'm more or less speaking in the hopes of helping others. But one of the best things about the Maemo community is that if you can think of something that can be better, you can package it up in such a way that even if you can't code it, that it can be well received.

Re: Most maemo apps are buttafaces
 

Easy, make the graphics easy to use. Make the User Interface Guide a requirement when voting for best apps and apps to be profiled for the platform.

Re: Most maemo apps are buttafaces
 

My take on the Twitter App, i know this doesn't work with the guidelines entirely, but is it so bad, or any worse than the original?

http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...1&postcount=54

Re: Most maemo apps are buttafaces
 

Joshua, that's an overreaction toward what's been said.

Custom is not a bad word. The point made by a few is that if you're going to go custom, go all the way and do it for a solid reason-- like, custom was the only way to do the app justice.

Re: Most maemo apps are buttafaces
 

I dig, but the reactions to me suggesting this just blew me away.

Re: Most maemo apps are buttafaces
 

@joshua;
Do you have a prospective UI that you can demo; something that adds color to the point so that we are more or less seeing your initial post in the light that you wanted it presented?

Re: Most maemo apps are buttafaces
 

I'm just saying most apps that i've seen don't look the greatest. They're all very simple, where as I would prefer a bit more eye candy, and a bit more visually pleasing design. An example would be that Twitter client, and a youtube client from not lon

Re: Most maemo apps are buttafaces
 

Re: Most maemo apps are buttafaces
 

Although I do think Witter's UI could be improved while using only built-in/themeable widgets, your mockup looks very slick. If future versions were to be based on that, it looks like it would have no real problems with themes. Obviously your custom graphics wouldn't be themeable, but it would work just fine nonetheless, since all elements are custom. That's all I was trying to convey earlier: if an app is going to use some custom graphics (beyond icons), it's best to use only custom graphics. Otherwise, some parts will change based on the theme while others remain static, inevitably leading to ugliness and/or usability issues.

As someone who makes themes, I obviously like apps to be themeable. At the same time I think the fully non-standard/unthemeable graphics wazd made for AlmostTI look fantastic, and work far better than the default widgets would for that app.

It's awesome that you're offering to help improve UIs for free, but as others have said, it's important to consider when and where it's really appropriate to use custom graphics. Some apps just wouldn't work as well with the default widgets, but IMO such apps are pretty rare. And obviously, there are plenty of ways to improve a UI aside from replacing graphics.

You obviously have design skills and a desire to make Maemo look nicer; have you considered making themes? (Not to suggest that you shouldn't keep trying to help out with specific apps.)

Re: Most maemo apps are buttafaces
 

I'm trying to get my head around themes, I'd love to try building one, but I'm having trouble getting started.

Re: Most maemo apps are buttafaces
 

Learn to theme, create a nice theme that looks just how you want it to look. Then all applications will look "fancier" and nobody's forcing anyone to create any unstandard, unthemeable user interfaces in their apps.

UI layout is another thing and I think application programmers would appreciate feedback on it. But remember that some apps are early in development. If someone has been working on something for 2 days, one cannot go and shout "the application is so ugly!". Rock solid feature first, look&feel second.

That would be the best option to make all apps shiny!

Re: Most maemo apps are buttafaces
 

I think this partly boils down to cultural differences. In Linux(Gtk+, Qt for example), global themeability has always been the way of doing things. Instead of designing the graphics for the user interface elements the coder just uses generic widgets like buttons, toolbars etc. The look of these generic widgets is defined in the global theme. The advantage of this is consistency. You don't have to theme each application separately, they automatically inherit the graphic design. Why people are so allergic to the word "custom" is that the custom elements can't be themed like this. If you designed custom UI graphics with light colors, no matter how nice it looks, it'll look out of place if the user wants to use a dark theme.

In my opinion, this can sometimes make the user interface look a bit boring. Applications mostly look like each other and it's difficult to distinguish them from each other at a glance. It's difficult to use different kind of graphics for applications of different purposes. In my opinion it'd be nice to use a bit more colourful and blingy graphics in entertainment software while office software could look more conservative. But I still don't want to lose the ability to theme globally.

Maybe a middle ground could be the best option? Maybe more widgets so that you could choose from a bunch of button styles the one that best fits the look and feel of your application. A bit more variety could help make the UIs more vibrant while still having them themeable globally.

Re: Most maemo apps are buttafaces
 

I'm all for good design, but apps with custom UIs that look different and work different to anything else on the system are one of the things that drives me up the wall on my occasional forays back into Windows.

UI design should focus on things like what elements to use and how to lay them out, not on unique graphics.

Re: Most maemo apps are buttafaces
 

Interesting discussion you have going here people.

Has anyone thought about maybe just trying to improve the existing guidelines for UI or suppliment them? Most developers like to have consistent stanadards to work too and for inexperienced users a consistent look and feel reduces confusion.

Please keep in mind that the UI is there to accomplish an job: interfacing the application and the user. The primary task of any interface should be the ability to perform tasks with the application in as easy a way as possible. Various elements come together to accomplish this task with consistent visual cues helping (hence themes). If this can be accomplished with aesthetic panache and flair thengreat, but not at the expense of ease of use.

Afurther thought is that of accessibility. Consistent use of UI and stock objects means that tools to enhance accessibility can be coded. In some countries there is even a legal right to this accessibility (UK being a case in point).

Chris, I understand your frustration when you feel you can contribute but maybe I can suggest another approach to go in parallel? How about mocking up some nice 'Fantasy Applications' interfaces? Show off your talent with example screens, even if the app doesn't exist or make sense. Then show people what you have. Maybe some of you could look at the existing guidelines and suggest some examples of bst practice that take the guidelines but show how they can be used for more aesthetic effect?

Re: Most maemo apps are buttafaces
 

Who else is Chris? Or did you mean Josh? Because I'm good with a pencil, but have zero graphical skills.

From what I'm hearing, we may be able to benefit from an extended library of widgets, buttons, etc. Is there a way we can do that? Joshua has some great skills, and this may be where he can help out.

Re: Most maemo apps are buttafaces
 

I'm not sure that I like the Application Manager's main screen as it looks so different from everything else. I wonder why it is different and what you guys think of that.

Re: Most maemo apps are buttafaces
 

i agree with you. the n900 is a beast but the average cell user will most likely be turned away by look of alot the apps. even though these are functionaly great.

Re: Most maemo apps are buttafaces
 

just consider, the n900 is not the avarage mainstream consumer product, it is stll a niche product for tech geeks.

most people with that kind of tech affinity rather tend to like their gadgets clean, simple and minimalistic style wise. I do work as I Graphics Artist and Userinterface Designer and I really appreciate Interfaces that tend to reduce instead of trying to cram tons of unnecessary visual information into a tiny space. There are times were I work on projects were the clients wants a *blinged* out interface and it always breaks my heart if the client doesn't listen to my advice saying that it will most likely confuse more people, and it will not give the application the extended usability they actually long for.

in a sentence:

keep it as simple as possible and you will most likely have no confused user of your application - and this one of the most important rules of interface design

just my 2 cents

Re: Most maemo apps are buttafaces
 

You know something, while the Josh's mock up looks great from a functional end - and seems to borrow form Gravity (Symbian^1 version) - the second one seems to better follow the UI guidelines, and evne introduces a bit of a nuance with the bottom text box that needs to be considered for future updates to the UI guide.

In light of this respective thread (since I posted the above paragraph in the other), I would also be more inline with a theme that changes *most* of the look and feel of the UI elements, but then some better attention paid to the usage paradigm or user flow when designing applications.

Maemo 5 more or less relies on the idea that most of the interactions are linear and sub-actions are given thru simplistic (end-user perspective) means. If you will, craming the window full of features isn't good, yet leaving a page devioid of them isn't as well. Discoverability should be a defining characteristic of any application, especially in an environment which is emphasizing touch with fingers over touch with styli.

Now, looking at this app, I can see off the bat that there should be smaller buttons on the sidebar, and that a gesture-based interface needs to be utilized for interacting with it. This app has a similar user process flow as Fennec/Firefox Mobile. And the UI really should be similar because of it.

The "shiny" is another matter. Once the functionality of the UI is met, then let's get a theme and/or some custom elements on the screen - maybe even specfic for that app - which makes sense, and endears some positive opinions.

By the way, the sidebar button sizes might not be in the UI document. If not, its best *not* to take the same rule that Symbian^1 has for size, and functions. Working on an N97 everyday, I can tell you that those button guidelines aren't optimial.

Re: Most maemo apps are buttafaces
 

I go agree with both partys here..

I agree with the developers making their app as basic as possible so every1 can use it.
Also their aim is to make an application that works and not something that looks nifty but doesnt do jack. Plus their probably not into designing something and they dont want to kill their app with weird looking designs.

On the other hand as an app-user and a graphic designer I do like to have some eye-candy. As some already pointed out that most apps are made by ''just'' people. People who don't have must experience with aspects of design like: User experience, Interaction Design and Interface Design.

Re: Most maemo apps are buttafaces
 

Does the guidelines suggest a size, what size would you suggest? I'm a developer first, albeit a flash dev, but I take criticism well and focus on making things better. I'll read through the guidelines tonight and make changes.

Re: Most maemo apps are buttafaces
 

How do I get started? I downloaded theme maker, but those psds are a bit confusing, could you send me a psd of a theme you started?

Re: Most maemo apps are buttafaces
 

There's nothing confusing about the psds. You really just have to use trial and error to learn. All you need is already in the template so you wouldn't really benefit from any of my templates.

Re: Most maemo apps are buttafaces
 

Are the layers in the PSDs named and commented? That would seem to me as the only reason for confusion.

---
Maemo 5 Human User Interface Guidelines
http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/...ace_Guidelines

Re: Most maemo apps are buttafaces
 

is there a brainstorm on these issues? or do you guys even think its worth the energy? And if its so how do we approach it with out offending people?

Re: Most maemo apps are buttafaces
 

i agree with you. but when it comes down to it money makes things possible. and most take shiny over substance. not saying thats a good enough reason at all.

Re: Most maemo apps are buttafaces
 

Thanks champ.

Re: Most maemo apps are buttafaces
 

woh!, I just found this whole thread, that seems to exist because my apps UI is ugly ;-)
and it's even longer than the thread about the app itself...

I have a couple of things to add, firstly I think someone pointed out a few pages back, my app is in *early* development. I only even pushed it to extras-testing to see how that process worked.

secondly... I started this project to learn python, and maemo development. At no point did I set out to write the best possible twitter app for the n900. I figured Mauku is streets ahead. The only reason I even picked twitter for my first app is because it feels like it's the default thing to do in learning any new environment these days.

thirdly... I have day job, and it keeps me crazily busy. that means I get a couple of hours an evening to work on this, and some time at weekends. So anything I work on has to be prioritised.

All that said, I'd love to make my application prettier. and I'm sure other people just starting out would love to make their app a sexy sleek thing that people like. but I literally have no idea how to do that.
It's all very well showing me a design of what it could look like, but as a developer what I want is example code that shows me how to achieve that. I'm not saying write it for me, but point me at a howto, or api or something that I can use to make the changes. most of the suggestions I've incorporated so far, came with code examples of how to do it. that makes it super easy for me in my limited time to take those suggestions and do something.
So my suggesiton, if you want to help newbie developers like myself make prettier UIs....write some useful instructions on how to do that in for a python app.

However... one final point. I'm am very concious that there are people that don't like how unintuative my app is. That's because I did not set out to write an intuative app, I set out to write an app that *I* want to use every day. For me that means common functions should not require lots of view transitions etc. One thing I don't like about mauku is having to come out of the timeline view and into an update view, to submit an update, then back again. So whilst I will take suggestions on UI improvements, and will gladly incorporate things that appeal to me... There may still come a point when the fact I'm developing something I want to use will conflict with UI standards or guidelines or whatever.
But we shall see.

Re: Most maemo apps are buttafaces
 

Dude, I used yours as an example as it was the most recent one in my mind.

I jumped the gun on using yours as an example, as I did not know that it was more of a personal thing, or that it was in early stages etc. So my bad for that, I sincerely apologize.

It was the idea of the black background and flat buttons, and your app was the most recent one I was looking at (maemo-guru). I understand you're working on it and it's primarily for yourself, and I didn't mean to offend you at all!

I also like what you mentioned about the instructions, I have ZERO knowledge about python or developing for mobile, but I'm trying to learn myself so that in the future if I provide input its more than just a mock up that I whip up in photoshop, but some substantial, detailed information on how to achieve it.

Keep at it, good luck, and thanks for your effort!

Re: Most maemo apps are buttafaces
 

Hope you guys figure out a way to make apps better and more use-able, if you do it will one of the attractions to Maemo, like other platforms which succeed.

If not people will just 'move on' like with symbian. Maemo UI looks beauituful, if the apps are there, then thats the "whole package"

Re: Most maemo apps are buttafaces
 

joshua. you call bad looking apps buttafaces. how do you call white people. nothing racist provocing here. just... interested.. im kinda going to date a black girl see. and since once i go black i wont be able to go back or something like that i kinda think i should educate meself a little.

watched dave chapelle all afternoon for example.

Re: Most maemo apps are buttafaces
 

[rant]
Off-topic, irrelavant, and in deed, despite the half-baked disclaimer very racially charged. Aside from applications and human beings being two entirely different things, I fail to see how whatever terminology joshua uses to refer to caucasians influences who you date, african american or not. Furthermore, I sincerely doubt that you watching david chapel qualifies as a lesson in cultural differences or socialogy. Particularly considering it satire.
[/rant]

Anyways, as for the original dilemma, I believe that problems could be solved if, as was previously suggested, developers start writing their code as to decouple the UI with the rest of the code. In this way, a developer can continue to add functionality to his program while leaving the art of design to the..well..designers.

For Qt (and its bindings) a developer needs only become familiar with Designer. For GTK+, glade serves the same purpose. The only real problem that then remains is deploying to Maemo. While Qt at least allows you to select the "Maemo" style, the Maemo-specific widgets are not yet integrated into it. While it is possilbe to add custom widgets into Designer, that is a bit time consuming. As far as I know, the same holds true for GTK+ and Glade.

Re: Most maemo apps are buttafaces
 

I see. Right...

Re: Most maemo apps are buttafaces
 

judging morality junky. now that is racism where i come from. calling someone that. where i come from the word racism isnt even in the dictionary. so if you feel offended, YOU are the *****hole. nevermind the question.

irrelevant, offtopic, slowchat, smalltalk, not right place to ask. okay sure, true. have a nice day