Re: "Surging iPod touch eclipses the iPhone" ... while Nokia stupidly abandons tablets!
 

I don't know where you live, but I visited Berlin, Hamburg, Copenhagen, Gothenburg, Prague, Wien, Linz, Budapest, London, Glasgow, this past few months, and free wifi is almost completely unheard of. Even in hotels, it was less than 50%, and I was looking for this option when selecting a hotel.

Re: "Surging iPod touch eclipses the iPhone" ... while Nokia stupidly abandons tablets!
 

could be one is more used to tethering in europe. I cant speak for the rest of europe, but here in norway, tethering is part of the package, no extra "plan", no need to unlock anything, just get the right profile, and off you go.

Re: "Surging iPod touch eclipses the iPhone" ... while Nokia stupidly abandons tablets!
 

I don't like the word "should" in this case but I think it is that attracts people to N900. I speak on myself but I feel it is true for many. I tried to say that even I am a long time Linux guy I didn't step into Linux tablet area just because I prefer notebook and netbook to small tablet - there is no principal difference between. Just small Linux box doesn't hit me, there are GPRS/3G internet cards for notebooks on market.

But small PHONE with full-blown Linux (not just Dalvik's Java in google gadgets) overweights the small screen/KBD drawbacks. The possibility of access to Internet virtually anywhere with 3G bandwidth buys me too. I already used this with Symbian Nokia 6133 and N-series but that is not Linux and very restrictive - there is no difference between it and something like iPhone, provider controls anything.


If I can bring a DEVICE during business I prefer a netbook or notebook. If I can't - I want a phone with Internet access. The tablet is out of equation here.


There is a big difference - Palm was NOT able to reach the cellphone market in time and lost it (ok, there is a big competition of big labels in this area and they doesn't allow Palm reach it... patents, expertise etc).

Moreover, they never understand the customer demands for powerful communication device. I still have my old Palm M500 (and former user of Palm V, Palm III etc) and I remember the widespread frustration then Palm abandoned WiFi in SD capable Palm V. Anybody WANTED network access but they just dumped us. And competitors did it faster.

As for Nokia, the tablet support ... well, it could please some customers, of course, but it is not competitive against netbooks. Small screen, no good KBD, no good 3G access... Sorry guys, it is on sides of progress now.


As long as it has NO voice/3G it will compete with netbooks and I prefer Linux (or even Windows ;) ) to a stripped device.

Re: "Surging iPod touch eclipses the iPhone" ... while Nokia stupidly abandons tablets!
 

It is too bad embedded VNC servers never caught on in appliances with connectivity.

Re: "Surging iPod touch eclipses the iPhone" ... while Nokia stupidly abandons tablets!
 

For Budapest (where I live), the (chain-owned) hotels are pretty much the only places where you can't have free wifi (I don't know what are they thinking). The city is actually full of free hotspots, pretty much all the caffes, restaurants (MacDonalds too), gas stations, shopping-malls have them. There are even full districts in the city which have 100% outdoor coverage (city sponsored, eg. 7.th district).

Last year I visited quite a few german cities, and the situation was pretty much the same, it wasn't difficult at all to find a free hotspot. Again, the big hotel chains asked for money, but the smaller ones had free hotspots.

Re: "Surging iPod touch eclipses the iPhone" ... while Nokia stupidly abandons tablets!
 

Of course WIFI isn't available in every location, but having travelled rather extensively (including places most probably haven't heard of) I can't remember a place - large or small - where WIFI wasn't available somewhere. One just has to look or ask around.

But the lack of comprehensive global WIFI coverage is beyond the point.You have your mobile phone and you tether. When travelling abroad get a local SIM card and you're always online.

And anyway the key advantages of a mobile companion device are that you can leave it at home, car or in your hotel room, with family or friends, and it still provides service while you carry your mobile around, battery life unaffected. (If both Nokia devices used the same battery model you could just bring one spare... Another incentive to buy a Nokia phone. But why oh why are the batteries always different)

With proper multi-user (incl. guest user) and security features (they're there and open source, it's just of matter of implementing them) you could even momentarily leave the tablet with the friends you just made on the road. You wouldn't do that with your personal mobile phone.

If the Maemo ecosystem fails to gain adequate momentum vs. competing systems, some of us will have an inkling why. (looks at Nokia's market segmentation strategy)

Re: "Surging iPod touch eclipses the iPhone" ... while Nokia stupidly abandons tablets!
 

As a first time maemo user, i can tell you that I wouldnt be holding a N900 right now if it wasn't a phone. I was actually looking to buy a HTC HD2 until I saw the N900 in action. No matter what you and I may think we know about Nokia's market strategy, I think Nokia know what they are doing.

Re: "Surging iPod touch eclipses the iPhone" ... while Nokia stupidly abandons tablets!
 

This is spot on and I think most of you here are failing to see the bigger picture.

Four years ago I had an ipod, macbook and Sony Ericsson W950 touch screen phone.

Two years ago I converged the ipod and W950 into the iPhone and a macbook.

Now i've converged the lot into the N900 and have the added bonus of a (decent enough) camera to boot.

I would never have considered the N900 if it didnt sport the various radios and connectivity. I also have never paid any previous attention to the Nokia tablet range.
If Nokia ever wanted to take Maemo to the next level, this is exactly what they needed to do. Several of my colleagues and friends are also considering the move and all of us are mid twenties in IT/Media that Nokia need right now to adopt and third party market the brand to prep for maemo 6.

Re: "Surging iPod touch eclipses the iPhone" ... while Nokia stupidly abandons tablets!
 

I'm not really sure what you are arguing for or against.

No one's against having Maemo-based mobile phones/internet computers in the market. In fact the more the merrier! (wish there were even non-Nokia models with Maemo come to think of that)

Would it invoncenience you, as a user of the Nokia N900 integrated phone/tablet, if there were other, cheaper models that would simply tether (or use WIFI) to get connected, and which were occasionally used as plain tablet computers or media devices or whatnot?

I don't think so.

What if the availability of the non-phone "phone companion" tablet model(s) helped make Maemo a more popular platform, resulting in more software also for the Maemo phone users? Would that be troubling?

But if you're happy with Nokia's exclusive market segmentation of Maemo, well, good luck with everything. Although I'm personally not interested in the current exclusive Nokia/Maemo offering, as an environmentally conscientious person I hope that Nokia and the Maemo ecosystem sustains your device beyond the next year or two. If the Maemo community was larger maybe the support would last longer yet and the software selection might be greater too.

Re: "Surging iPod touch eclipses the iPhone" ... while Nokia stupidly abandons tablets!
 

Peet's post #49 makes the most important points perfectly. Kudos!

Re: "Surging iPod touch eclipses the iPhone" ... while Nokia stupidly abandons tablets!
 

Peet,

I think you are missing the point. The point isn't about having both on the market, but about if having a tablet at this point makes sense businesswise.

While the previous Maemo tablets have had their following, they really haven't had much of an impact beyond the geek community. So, Nokia went where they could get more visibility: the cell phone market. So far, demand has been higher than expected, and at least in Europe, they get some visibility from cell companies. I know it got me interested, where I've previously passed on closeouts on the previous tablets.

Riddle me this: Considering the current state of Maemo and available applications, do you think a stripped down N900 with no cell and no hardware keyboard could compete with the iPod Touch at this time? I don't think so. Software leaves something to be desired. So does the built in media player. The only thing the platform has going for it right now for the general consumer is web browsing. That really isn't enough to go with Nokia over Apple.

Course, there is a difference of opinion on what people want for a tablet. The OP is saying something like the iPod Touch. Many on this forum were hoping for a beefier 810.

In any case, I think the OP is likely wrong that the N900 means that Nokia has abandoned tablets for good. For Nokia, it seems clear that Maemo 6 is a milestone for the OS to be more consumer friendly and it is likely that there are perhaps bigger things planned for that release. The N900 is just a step further in that direction.

Re: "Surging iPod touch eclipses the iPhone" ... while Nokia stupidly abandons tablets!
 

I for one refuse to admit that I am missing the point, since it is MY point of view, not Nokia's. I want a tablet for my sake, I never said that it is bad for Nokia to choose to not make one. A phone makes perfect sense -- just seeing how this forum exploded with new users in the last couple of months is telling enough what the general population out there is after...

But, once the N900 has become more mainstream, having a "bigger brother" with similar inwards and focused more on media and less on connectivity may capture additional customers -- those that are happy with their blackberries or E72 or ericssons...

PS. Going back to the OP, the "ipod touch eclipses the iphone"... Of course it would, offering almost everything the iphone has, at five times lower price... even the apple herd could figure it out after a couple of years...

Re: "Surging iPod touch eclipses the iPhone" ... while Nokia stupidly abandons tablets!
 

My only reservation abut the excellent post #49 is that it only looks at the situation as it is right now.

Apple created the ipod. Then the iphone. Then they realised they could do the easy bit and make an 'iphone without the phone' - and look! they had a tablet.

Nokia brought maemo from the opopsite direction. As a maker of phones, they set about making something that was solely a tablet. And it worked. and there was a market for it. Next the wanted to see if they could put a phone onto it too. And the answer has been a qualified yes. There's a lot of phone functions missing.

So right now the emphasis is on making the platform support a phone. Because everyone knows Maemo can run a tablet,. And right now the new device is one with telephony, so they can get that bit working.

There is absolutely nothing stopping those who want a tablet using one. And personally, I think it's [extremely likely that step 5 will include both sorts of devices. Indeed, possibly lots of devices with a range of hardware specs for different target audiences much as symbian does.

Let Nokia develop its platform first.

Re: "Surging iPod touch eclipses the iPhone" ... while Nokia stupidly abandons tablets!
 

If the Maemo platform is strategically important to Nokia there's no obstacle to keeping the SIM-less tablet market going for developers and customers alike. The N900's tablet functions are already battle-tested; improving its telephony functions is something Nokia engineers are doing within their secret darkrooms anyway. Yet lot of the internet and media functionality depends on 3rd party developers and generally open-source apps which are being patched up and improved from many different directions. All they need is hardware to run the current Maemo OS.

If Nokia will indeed release tablet(s) in the future then why the long gap and no information whatsoever? Wrt. price and screen size the N900 is hardly the ideal tablet developer attraction, and what hardware features should the developers target on the not-even-rumoured future Nokia tablet? Keyboard? D-pad? etc.

I still believe the main point stands: Having a phone-tablet (N900) needs not exclude having a more affordable phoness "companion" tablet based on the same updated hardware design.

Being extremely phone-centric has already blindsided Nokia in a major way by the arrival of iphone and later Android and the plethora of ARM-armed touchscreen smartphones. Now they're surrendering the "companion" tablet market (and many developers) voluntarily after pioneering the platform (which, when mature, would help the S40 and Symbian sales!) and after bringing up the tablet usability from 40% to 60% to 80% currently?

That may not be ideal for attracting developers though, especially open-source and tablet-oriented software developers. We know that the next version of Maemo will be QT-centric, but that's about it. What kind of hardware will it run on?

I'm sure there will be developers targetting Maemo 6 a year from now, but at this rate I doubt Nokia is maximizing Maemo's potential to attract them. Or maybe it's all an intentional shakedown and part of the QT migration, but it still doesn't asnwer any questions about the lack of tablet hardware now or in the future.

Re: "Surging iPod touch eclipses the iPhone" ... while Nokia stupidly abandons tablets!
 

"Between planes, airports, and hotels, a WiFi connection is usually always available to her. "

But most people DONT spend their entire lives in major transport hubs.

Most people spend most of their lives away from wi-fi connections (and heck, even within my own flat I have trouble getting a wi-fi signal in the bedroom).

Without some kind of cellular option you will never ever have an always-on connectivity or anything close to it. You might not like the business models that cellular companies use, but you cannot deny that cellular networks have a far more comprehensive coverage of the world.

Because of cellular I can connect when I'm on a bus for example, which is impossible with wi-fi.

This idea that somehow removing cellular would bring us better connectivity is lunacy.

Re: "Surging iPod touch eclipses the iPhone" ... while Nokia stupidly abandons tablets!
 

Removing cellular (and adding BT DUN client) will give a much better connectivity - connectivity with CDMA networks, connectivity with UMTS networks using the 850MHz band, etc.

Re: "Surging iPod touch eclipses the iPhone" ... while Nokia stupidly abandons tablets!
 

You don't need to remove cellular to add a DUN client.

Re: "Surging iPod touch eclipses the iPhone" ... while Nokia stupidly abandons tablets!
 

We are paying a lot for this cellular in money, weight, design choices. It makes no sense to buy this device to use it as a tablet.

Re: "Surging iPod touch eclipses the iPhone" ... while Nokia stupidly abandons tablets!
 

IMHO all this discussion is biased by the concept of "tablet" which most members of this forum are keen on.

Actually, the iPod Touch is not marketed (nor bought) as an Internet Tablet, but as a pocket gaming console. Its competitors are the PSP and the Nintendo DSi, not Nokia ITs. In this article Steve Jobs explains Apple's strategy for the iPod Touch.

And the reason of the success is that, beyond a lot of good-quality and low-price entertainment titles, the iPod Touch has also a good mobile browser, good media player capabilities, VOIP suppor through Skype or Fring, built-in PIM functions and a large number of utility and reference applications. So the real selling point of the iPod Touch is that it is the cheapest device to access iPhone OS software ecosystem.

That's why a new cellular-less Maemo device would not be a real contender to the iPod Touch, even at the same price.

So IMHO Nokia made a good move with Maemo 5 to compete in the high-end market segment first, in order to attract as many professional software developers as possible. If Maemo does not achieve a solid software catalog, it will be crushed by iPhone and Android no matter how good the hardware Nokia will be able to produce.

Re: "Surging iPod touch eclipses the iPhone" ... while Nokia stupidly abandons tablets!
 

more like its marketed as a pmp that also can game.

Re: "Surging iPod touch eclipses the iPhone" ... while Nokia stupidly abandons tablets!
 

Again it is not an either or proposition... it's both.

Outside the US an AT&T only iPhone would be useless for her. She would not be exposed to the Apple OS and her life would go on without it. However, because she could buy the iTouch, she is using an Apple product.

Her next device could very well be an all-in-one Maemo cell phone however the decision to buy one would now be based on the size, usability, and flexibility of her current set-up. A steeper hill for Maemo to climb. Kudos, Apple marketing.

The corollary to this would be a current, in contract iPhone user who can not try, and will not be exposed to the Maemo5 OS without buying a new cell phone and committing to a different carier... Fail, Nokia marketing.

GK's post illustrates a missed market for Nokia by only offering Maemo5 on a cell phone device not an increased market by offering only a tablet like device...

Apple offers both, Nokia doesn't... simple azat. :eek:


No lunacy here, BTW. :confused:

Re: "Surging iPod touch eclipses the iPhone" ... while Nokia stupidly abandons tablets!
 

Not really, cellular components are cheap and small and getting cheaper and smaller all the time. The extra cost of 3G would probably be something like 10% of the total price or less.

A basic 3G phone (including the screen, keypad, battery, processor, earpiece, casing etc) retails for about 50 euros unlocked, the N900 retails for about 500 euros unlocked. The cost of making the 3G components cannot be a significant factor in the price.

Things like the the costs of the processors would be much more significant, but I haven't heard anyone here calling for a device with a slower processor or a non-GPU version.

As for design choices... well, there's not a huge difference between the N900 and N810 except their physical size. There's not a huge design difference between the iPhone and the iPod Touch either.

This anti-cellular movement is really getting me down. I could just as easily complain about there being an infrared port which most people never use, and I hardly ever use Bluetooth or the memory card slot either. But I'm not going to complain because I recognise that these are important to some people and they don't add any significant problems for me. And the more people that buy this device, the more software support I will receive too.

The problems that people cite with cellular are nothing to do with the technology but entirely to do with the business practices of cellular providers. And that's a regulatory problem, not a technological one.

American phone providers (both cellular and landline) do things that would be totally illegal in many countries. Until that kind of bad behaviour is stopped, they will continue to milk their customers regardless of the technology used.

Re: "Surging iPod touch eclipses the iPhone" ... while Nokia stupidly abandons tablets!
 

Again it is not an anti-anything post. If any thing the movement would be pro more devices with M5. :)

If the premise increases the production and sales of expensive common components then it would result in a lower cost M5 cell phone too.

Re: "Surging iPod touch eclipses the iPhone" ... while Nokia stupidly abandons tablets!
 

if the radio do not have a big effect on price, explain how the archos5 IT 32GB (same basic cpu, larger screen, same internal storage) comes in at €299,99, while the N900 is somewhere around €599?

Re: "Surging iPod touch eclipses the iPhone" ... while Nokia stupidly abandons tablets!
 

Thing is, for the history of Maemo, they haven't had more than one product out there. The 770 was superseded by the 800 was superseded by the 810 and now has been superseded by the 900.

Considering that people know little about what Maemo 6 and there is no sign that there will be a second Maemo 5 device they know what the development platform is right now: the N900.

Course, I don't know how this makes them any different than any other cell phone developer.

When there wasn't much of a market in the first place, there isn't much to give up. Anyways, I don't view this as a "give up", but a way to get more people interested in the Maemo platform.

BTW, I find it ironic you say this when Nokia IS a cell phone company. If anything, the whole tablet minus cell service is outside the bailiwick of the company, and having it integrated with cell service has been long overdue.

Re: "Surging iPod touch eclipses the iPhone" ... while Nokia stupidly abandons tablets!
 

The N900 also has a hardware keyboard and a 5MP camera.

BTW, the price difference isn't as great in the states. Amazon has the Archos5 at $379. When Amazon last had the N900 in stock, it was about $550.

Re: "Surging iPod touch eclipses the iPhone" ... while Nokia stupidly abandons tablets!
 

All of this ignores a couple points. Apple's iPod Touch sells well mainly because of its marriage to iTunes for media delivery, and games and ebooks from the inappropriately named App Store. The iPod Touch isn't seen as a web tablet at all by most of its users. Most of its users see it as a media player and ebook reader. These new figures mean little in terms of Maemo or tablets, and more to iTunes and its heavy gaming and ebook focus in its App Store.

Nokia has just unveiled Maemo5 to the public about 7 weeks ago. Just because there isn't a SIM-less model now doesn't mean there won't be. Apple didn't debut with the iPod Touch and iPhone simultaneously either. Nokia could've debuted Maemo5 with a SIM-less and phone model, but I doubt it would have translated to much higher sales or better developer support.

The main folks wanting a tablet version are previous NIT owners. I haven't heard complaints from beyond the previous owners. The fact is Maemo without cellular connectivity only appealed to 300,000 to 500,000 consumers. That amount doesnt justify dedicating manufacturing capacity to such a small market, negating the thing that would make it cheap: scale. Without no large scale, there is the same circumstance that keeps Symbian devices from CDMA networks. The small lot would be more expensive to produce.

Don't forget that while Apple sells alot of media players, Nokia sells more. They may sell a large amount of media devices capable of working as a web tablet without a SIM, Nokia sells more. In the sub $300 segment, Nokia's 5800 and its various variants are better sellers globally, comparable to the iPod Touch sales. So if price is the issue, Nokia already has better equipped Symbian touchscreen devices with better browsers, ability to read more ebook and media formats, higher quality cameras, louder speakers, front facing cameras, and more, yet in the same price range. ALL those Nokias can also be used as phones. The only advantage is games, but that is addressable.

I think Nokia should have a SIM slotless model, but not running Maemo5, but Symbian. Maemo is for computing, and the futur of computing is the cloud and web based services, so the always on model is best. A Maemo model without a SIM slot would be cool, too, but it will most likely be a niche device with its target market shared by other cheaper devices in its portfolio. Unless it features a 7"+ display, it will not appeal to many people. That market is waning, and the future is convergence.

Nokia isn't stupid. They are just focused. They really don't care about Maemo or Symbian except in terms of pushing Ovi and Qt. If there is a desire for a cheap alternative, Symbian may fill the void, or we'll have to wait for a SIM slotless model. Nokia is listening, and everyone sees the desire for a tablet focused model. I think it will be still premium priced, possibly with higher end hardware to protect branding.

Re: "Surging iPod touch eclipses the iPhone" ... while Nokia stupidly abandons tablets!
 

crap, forgot about the camera. But i do not think the keyboard adds much to the cost, as the N810 came out at a price point that was in the same area as the archos 5.

still, €100 for the camera, and €100 for the mobile radios (it does both GSM and UMTS after all)?

Re: "Surging iPod touch eclipses the iPhone" ... while Nokia stupidly abandons tablets!
 

That's it exactly, the Maemo tablets and iPod Touch were going after totally different customers. Take away the iTunes users and the general media consumers and Apple doesn't have many customers left. The overlap between the tablets and the iPod Touch must have been very small indeed.

The iPod Touch is a media player with restricted web browsing and computing abilities as nice extras. Its focus is on media consumption, that is what most people buy it for. Look at how many of its "apps" are simply interfaces for accessing online media content.

This is what the designer of Canola was saying, if you want a device to succeed it has to be designed with a very specific audience in mind, and that audience has to be large enough to justify the product's development.

A general non-cellular pocket computer is not aimed at a specific mainstream audience, so it was never going to be a viable product for Nokia in the long term. They had to make it more specialised, and they've wisely gone for making it oriented around communications, which is where Nokia's track record is strongest.

Just to put this in perspective:

In its entire history Apple has sold about 230 million iPods. In its entire history Nokia has sold about 2000 million phones, and sells about 300 million more every year. Add in the other manufacturers, and total phones sales are 1000 million every year. Phones are an order of magnitude more widely used than any other gadget, and this idea that it's a stupid market to be in is itself stupid.

Despite all the snobbery, Nokia sells more Symbian smartphones than all iPhones and iPod Touches put together. It's fashionable in some corners to bash Symbian, but Symbian does well because it runs on cheap low-end hardware that ordinary people can actually afford to buy (150 euros unlocked for a touchscreen Symbian vs 300-600 euros unlocked for virtually any other touchscreen smartphone). It's finding a mainstream market and making a product that suits that market.

Part of the problem in these discussion threads is hype being confused with actual sales. Devices can be very popular with the media yet unpopular in the real world, or vice versa, because the media tends to be written by a very unrepresentative sample of the population.

The Amazon Kindle is talked about in hushed tones as some kind of triumph, yet Amazon still won't release any sales figures, with most estimates at something in the region of half a million devices a year, about the same as the original iPod. Well... the original N-Gage sold one million devices in its first year, yet the N-Gage was instantly written off as a total disaster at its launch.

What measure are people using to compare the success and failure of various devices? Userbase? Sales figures? Column inches in newspapers? How cool the device seems?

Re: "Surging iPod touch eclipses the iPhone" ... while Nokia stupidly abandons tablets!
 

Goldfish, you gangster! :) Only problem with that comparison is that the ipod touch is about 150-300$ US, where the N900 is 649$ US. Secondly, the iPhone will function without a sim, just needs to be jailbroken and hacktivated for that. Cheers!

Re: "Surging iPod touch eclipses the iPhone" ... while Nokia stupidly abandons tablets!
 

The components of a cell radio might not be an expensive ad-on but the FCC process for approval is much more costly than a non cell device.

Re: "Surging iPod touch eclipses the iPhone" ... while Nokia stupidly abandons tablets!
 

So you don't think N900 (with or without phone) can do the above at least as well as the iPod Touch? Hmm...

As to the rest of the phone aficionados: again, no one here is against having the N900 as a phone; we just want to have a Maemo alternative with a larger screen, bigger battery, HDMI out -- all the features that seem to be incompatible with the mobile phone philosophy.

It's all about openness and freedom of choice, isn't it?

Also, I am getting tired of customers defending the business decisions of a company -- talk about fanboism -- whose side are you on, really?

Re: "Surging iPod touch eclipses the iPhone" ... while Nokia stupidly abandons tablets!
 

Krisse and Chris: you're saying there's a Symbian phone that is as inexpensive as an iPod touch and offers a web-browsing experience superior to that of the touch? Great! Please provide a model number and link as to where in the US I can buy it.

Re: "Surging iPod touch eclipses the iPhone" ... while Nokia stupidly abandons tablets!
 

I've no illusion that your position isn't overwhelmingly more common, but as one of those rare dwellers of that tiny island at the opposing pole, it was comforting for a time thinking a company as large as Nokia finally wanted to serve my niche. I wouldn't be holding an N900 right now were it not for those previous, "pocket Linux computer that's not a phone" devices. I wouldn't have a cellular phone at all.

The first Engadget posting about the 770 was the most exciting electronic device news I've ever read. I had printouts of the press photos pinned up all around my office. But were it not for joining the Maemo community to celebrate those early devices, I wouldn't have read more than the first line of any Engadget post regarding the N900. Just another phone.

At the most recent summit, Ari explained away the confusion. Nokia hadn't set out to make companion devices for cellular phones, and of course they hadn't set out to make my dream not-a-phone pocket Linux computer. Instead, they'd started the Maemo project to prepare for what was then a widely predicted future, one that never came. In that future, ubiquitous municipal WiFi networks made cellular networks and phones near-obsolete, and it might have been the Cisco iPhone that was making a grab for Nokia's lunch.

Of course, once the telecom companies spread enough money and lawyers around to kill what was to be Maemo's original playground, Nokia had to pull the project back into the conventional, cellular fold in order to drive it toward widespread acceptance and use. The move is very reasonable, quite understandable, and guaranteed to bring a wider audience. At the same time, it leaves some of us who grabbed on early as Maemo rocketed past our strange little niches slightly bewildered as to where we're going and whether it's safe for us to keep holding on.

Re: "Surging iPod touch eclipses the iPhone" ... while Nokia stupidly abandons tablets!
 

Krisse, drop the straw man silliness. Find me a single post on this thread that says that there should not have been a Maemo device with cellular. (I could find you multiple instances on this thread where people who believe Nokia should already be offering a non-cell-enabled tablet have explicitly stated that they are "not anti-phone" and that they are not saying there should have been a tablet instead of a phone.)

Heck, I'm the OP and I'll even say that if Nokia had to come out with only a single Maemo device for this period, then a converged device was the smart choice. But I don't believe Nokia had to limit itself to a single device. Especially since it would seem to take very little engineering to offer a tablet once the N900 was being made.

Christexaport makes a strong argument that manufacturing a tablet would be a money-loser. I don't know enough to agree or to rebut it. It's the only argument I've heard, however, that could justify leaving that hole in the Maemo product line.

Re: "Surging iPod touch eclipses the iPhone" ... while Nokia stupidly abandons tablets!
 

i think i still have the linux journal edition that featured a 770 on the front.

Re: "Surging iPod touch eclipses the iPhone" ... while Nokia stupidly abandons tablets!
 

My argument was simply that Nokia isn't being stupid. Would I like a 7" Maemo tablet? Sure. But do I think Nokia is being stupid by not releasing it right now? Not so much.

Re: "Surging iPod touch eclipses the iPhone" ... while Nokia stupidly abandons tablets!
 

I have not kept up with Maemo talk since it has become 99% N900 talk.
Have there been any hints, leaks, teasers, anything, from Nokia about an updated (non-phone) tablet?
My N800 works perfectly, is loaded with tons of data, entertainment,applications, etc. I pay for an internet connection at home and won't consider paying twice. Is there any hope from Nokia or should I forget about it?( and perhaps dump that Nokia stock I bought a few years ago when it looked like Nokia was leading in new directions)

Re: "Surging iPod touch eclipses the iPhone" ... while Nokia stupidly abandons tablets!
 

OG Baby ;)

Many of the rebuttals to the "ipod touch is not a tablet" argument are along the lines of "if you hack it...."

In my mind, that line of thinking is entirely irrelevant to this discussion.

Because if you hack it.... Apple can (and has) arbitrarily decide to disable your device at their whim. Not to mention they will refuse to repair (HAH! everyone knows iPods are built to be replaced, not repaired) your device if they can show it's been hacked.

Now voiding your warranty for it, that's lame, but at least marginally justifiable. Outright disabling your device? That's just freaking evil and spiteful.

In my mind, this makes hacking the device an untenable solution for the vast majority of the population.

I will agree that a non-cellular freemantle device would be helpful for the development community.

If I was ever masochistic enough to get into the game of craps that is iPhone development/app store approval, I'd buy a iPod Touch.

Likewise, developers pleased enough with their existing phone would be more likely to develop for Maemo if they could get a cheaper device, certainly.

That said, the price difference between phone and non-phone n900's still wouldn't be nearly as great as in the iPhone/iPod ecosystem, precisely because the n900 will function without ever putting in a SIM card or signing a contract.

A developer wanting to get an iPhone (instead of the Touch) has to shell out over $1000+ over the course of the contract to use it in an Apple Approved manner.

This was the point I was trying to get at, even from the development perspective, the large price commitment from iPhone vs iPod Touch is almost entirely due to the carrier exclusivity deals and locked-down nature of the device.

I'm all for more options, bring on the tablet. Just want to point out that much of the reasoning on this forum used to justify "Nokia should...." are based on assumptions resulting from Apple's anti-consumer practices rather than true reflections of the technology and economics involved.

Re: "Surging iPod touch eclipses the iPhone" ... while Nokia stupidly abandons tablets!
 

But the N900 is still larger, heavier and more expensive, and comes with a smaller screen more suited for telephony than internet or media usage. And it's the only Maemo 5 device there is.

And Apple indeed has two rather similar "tablets" of which the itouch is both cheaper and more popular than the iphone. The 3rd party developers (and Apple too) seem quite happy with that decision.

What anti-cellular movement??

It is in no way "anti-cellular" if some people want to use their tablet tethered to _other_phones_ for cellular connectivity or simply as WIFI or media tablets. You already know that cellular 3G or higher data connections are often limited (e.g. 1GB per month) and outrageously expensive.

I'm sorry but I find that argument wholly spurious. These _personal_ connectivity options do not noticeably add to the cost or phone-centric design complexity, and if it comes to that, these connectivity functions could easily be added via USB if you wanted to make the basic tablet cheaper still. Just as I can add EDGE/3G connectivity by tethering via my existing (Nokia) phone.

I understand that you come from Nokia/phone background and desperately want the (top-end) Maemo _phone_ to succeed, but just maybe the larger Maemo platform (and the lower end less-smart Nokia phones) would benefit from a cheaper "companion" tablet device. Do you have any arguments against that idea?

And a neat way around that globally widespread cellular data ripoff problem is to offer a more affordable modern Maemo 5 (and 6) based tablet which would lower the entry threshold and allow more people to experience Maemo.