Re: MeeGo forum? (maemo.org round)
 

Except that, assuming the mentioned Maemo5/Maemo6 compatibility comes to pass, then there will be "MeeGo" apps being discussed on the MeeGo site that install and run just fine on our Maemo5 N900 devices, so we discuss those apps on t.m.o as well? Same app, two discussions, two communities?

At some point existing N900 (ie. t.m.o. members) may be interested to learn about any MeeGo ports to N900 - where will those discussions take place, meego.com or t.m.o.? Probably the former, so the t.m.o. members need to be registered and visiting both forums to remain up to date on the latest developments.

It may not be ideal to begin with, but repositioning t.m.o. as the MeeGo forum is possibly the easiest/quickest solution with the least aggravation for the 30,000 members. Rearrange the t.m.o forums a bit, create some new MeeGo forums and bobs your uncle.

Or leave t.m.o. here as it stands today, and everyone interested in the future of Maemo/Moblin/MeeGo will go there. United we stand, divided...

Re: MeeGo forum? (maemo.org round)
 

My vote is on:
* migrating the 34,000 members in an opt-in way [Editet after Milhouse's post]
* starting clean (empty forums)
* starting w single sign-on

Additional thoughts:
* timeline: between yesterday and publish of MeeGo sources (this being the proper milestone for starting karma whoring and a good homepage which appeals to end-users and device manufacturers) I think at that time there could be a new peak in interest (the meego story producing the first real, touchable output), so better be ready by then.

Re: MeeGo forum? (maemo.org round)
 

The problem with this discussion is that since this in maemo.org there is no input from the Moblin community. Even though, if I've understood correctly, they don't have a forum, it would be good to find out what are their expectations and desires for the MeeGo forum.

Re: MeeGo forum? (maemo.org round)
 

I see some value in bringing this forum over intact, or just renaming it, but I still lean toward starting a new forum from scratch even if it simply replicates the structure of this one (but with no legacy posts).

For one, I think it would be a good idea to let Maemo stuff run its natural course in its own forum. For another, we're blending communities and if we bring this forum in with its tremdous legacy of posts, it could look like "those Maemo folks" are swarming in en masse. That could be intimidating.

I'd rather start the forum fresh with all on equal footing. The forum is not the community.

Re: MeeGo forum? (maemo.org round)
 

On second thought, migrating the 30,000 members and providing a continuing path should be our first priority.

Re: MeeGo forum? (maemo.org round)
 

I have stopped actively participating in talk.maemo for the last few months (I was one of those who got scared away by all the new N900 owners) but as this seems to be the thread to discuss this in I will address my concerns here.

I own an N800, N810 and N900 and have been part of these forums for a few years. Please for the love of your deity have a more active moderation panel in the new forum. Moderators who will actually ban users/trolls and delete offensive posts and merge duplicate postings. ITT/T.M.O was the best forum I had ever been part of, I learned something new everyday from the posters. This was when it was still small and there was respect amongst posters. As it grew with the announcement of the N900, the noise to information ratio plummeted and I would literally get a headache from reading some of the posts. At the end of November I stopped reading it vowing never to return. Purchase of an N900 and the meego.com announcement has brought me back here and I see that nothing has changed really and that its simply gotten worse.

There is nothing wrong with active moderation it keeps the forum useful and will help maintain a good balance between endusers who want to bs with each other, commercial developers who want to make money and advanced hacker types who want to tinker. As this community morphs into something much bigger than it was before there should be an emphasis put upon how the community should develop. I believe this includes encouraging and discouraging certain behavior. Anyway don't have much else to say I am excited to see what comes of this merger, I have registered already at meego.com and hope to see many of you over there in the new forums whenever they come.

Re: MeeGo forum? (maemo.org round)
 

What's the harm with having the "legacy" posts to start with? Several vBulletin sites I've used in the past have archived old posts (eg. TiVo Community which has done this twice). Perhaps once MeeGo launches "for real" an archive could be created of the very old Maemo posts?

From what I understand, Maemo5 will become compatible with MeeGo (to a large extent, at least at API level) which will blur the line between "Maemo stuff" and "MeeGo stuff" - this could be a good thing, it just needs to be managed appropriately. As time progresses, the "Maemo Stuff" will most likely reduce, as has happened with the 770, then N8x0 discussions here.

Re: MeeGo forum? (maemo.org round)
 

I couldn't agree more with this. Perhaps there should be a complaints/rants section where all the "noisy" post could be moved and people who actually want to read something useful could simply avoid those sections. ;)

Re: MeeGo forum? (maemo.org round)
 

I did acknowledge that I see value in what you advocate Milhouse. My gut instincts are just suggesting in this case it would be better to start fresh.

EDIT: I'm trying to view this also from a Moblin perspective. Maybe assuming too much, but I just know I'd feel in their shoes to have this avalanche dumped on me...

Re: MeeGo forum? (maemo.org round)
 

I assume from the suffix to this thread name (maemo.org round), that Quim has also posted something similar to the Moblin community. It would be good if he, or someone, could link to that discussion here, so we can see what they think.

Re: MeeGo forum? (maemo.org round)
 

A big question as to what happens with maemo.org depends on how well MeeGo can/will run on N8x0 and N900.

If "not well at all", then there's a big question for the Maemo community as to who and how the downloads and repositories of maemo.org will be maintained; as Nokia have said the maemo.org contributors will continue to be paid contributors, but the expectation is surely they'll be more involved on the MeeGo side.

Re: MeeGo forum? (maemo.org round)
 

Let me try to start fixing this problem tonight.

The MeeGo launch represents a big change for everybody, including the guys that have been running the server infra. No obscurantism on purpose or bad intentions.

About a place to discuss the forum, the canonical place should be meego-community but I think it's worth making the maemo.org round first here. At the end Talk is what gets the highest impact and if don't agree on a minimum here we will even agree less there. :)

Re: MeeGo forum? (maemo.org round)
 

Jaffa, we will keep funding community members to address community priorities, whatever they are.

Now please back to MeeGo forum discussion. :)

Re: MeeGo forum? (maemo.org round)
 

I'd say;

1) create a new, blank, from scratch forum over on MeeGo.com,
2) then re-structure the talk.maemo.org site as has been discussed previously and allow it to remain for legacy devices.

I also think, if it has not already been made, something should be put up on the MeeGo site directing the MeeGo users over here to topic threads like this so that 'they' can get involved.

Re: MeeGo forum? (maemo.org round)
 

Almost everything seems good, but I'm against the accounts migration if this forum still exists, some people probably don't want to have a account a meego.org(tablet users) and will be pissed, like I was when google decided to automatically create a 'buzz' account for me :p

Re: MeeGo forum? (maemo.org round)
 

Re: MeeGo forum? (maemo.org round)
 

just start everything from scratch on meego forum
the users who are serious about the future will go and sign up, the ones with 3 posts who just want to complain about harmattan on n900 will not even notice, which might be good thing

Re: MeeGo forum? (maemo.org round)
 

As long as open-id works, you can automatically create an account on the new site by using your old one. And have your data brought over at the same time. That is would seem the nicest way for me.

Re: MeeGo forum? (maemo.org round)
 

I have two opinions I'd like to share. Well, I have lots, but two for this post.

1) Do not create two seperate, independent forums for maemo up to N900 and meego up from N900. You will lose users and developers in the process.

Reason: you lift the bar for people to start being active/contribute on the new project evolution. In other words, people that you have already caught the interest of, needs to be caught again. Instead extend the domain so that developers and users who started to be active "here" when they got their 770s, are not left behind but included in the participating mass. Okay, the noise will increase on a bigger community but that's easily fixed with filters.

2) Do not create two seperate, independent forums for maemo up to N900 and meego up from N900. You will lose momentum.

Reason:
The GUI, domain name and forum motor isn't as important as the fact that they need to split their interests over several forums. Remember that people also have other stuffs that interest them, and most people do not want to be a member on 937 different forums. They want to be a member of the two-three best. When people move over from Maemo to Meego, this place will lose some of it's key personalities and developers. And when the new forum starts from scratch, well, key personalities and developers doesn't even exist there. So both sites will lose.

I am sure Orangebox will create a new account there. But I will not. And while I'm not important, I'm sure I am not the only person on the net who doesn't come running yelling wheeeeee every time someone opens a new site. There are lots of sites. There are even lots of interesting opensource project sites that really deserves our attention.

Wait, I guess that was just one opinion sold in two different pitches. Well, let me tell you what you need to bring me and possibly other users/developers from this place to the next one as you can.

Single Sign On.

It is more important than anything else if you want my kind of people to follow from this site to the other one. Personally I would love to vote on brainstorms. But I do not because I will not create another user account. I have bugs to report and suggestions to how to improve them - it's part of my daytime job to create fix bugs - but I will not create a new account for bugzilla. I would love to vote on programs and ideas. I would write reviews and I would submit GUI prototypes and I would verbally abuse correct the forum celebrities when they are being unreasonably hostile to the innocent (but often angry) newcomers just because they remind them of the previous 999 newcomers that were angry for the same (usually valid) reason.

But I will do neither of these things if I have to have two seperate accounts with two seperate logins. Creating an account on the Meego forum strikes me as something I should not have to do. So I wont. Unless I come up with as good a reason as the first time I created one here. And that only ever happen when I want some information that searching fails to provide.

Once I am in, I stick my nose in lots of places it does not belong. But until that happens... I'm a hard sell.

As is everyone else who has internet experience.

Re: MeeGo forum? (maemo.org round)
 

However, opt-in migration should be offered. We are talking about 34000 people (not the forum) to possibly be migrated?

Re: MeeGo forum? (maemo.org round)
 

As a legacy device user I would actually love to be 'left behind' here and not take part of the 'noise' (as you call it) at all. :)

Should I ever be curious about MeeGo I'm sure I wouldn't mind the occasional effort the one-mouse-click it would take to get there. But to not have all the MeeGo noise on talk.maemo.org.....priceless :)

Re: MeeGo forum? (maemo.org round)
 

I know you would. But would you still if all the developers migrate?

This problem is not fixed by expelling all the noisy people. It's fixed by making simple filters that allows you to follow the subjects that you actually care about. I am a member of a community that is tens of thousand times bigger than this one, and I thrive there because I do not have to deal with more than the parts I choose to deal with.

I anticipate your myspace joke. But some people like it there too, I'm willing to wager.

Re: MeeGo forum? (maemo.org round)
 

There are not many developers left working on legacy OS. Most of those are not even active forum participants (they hang out in mailing lists, IRC channels, etc). The remaining few would probably have a thread here about their developments and get notified about posts to it and/or come and make updates to it.

If you're developing FOR a legacy OS/device I think it's a safe assumption to make that you are so vested in it that that would not be too much of an effort.

Developers dedicated to MeeGo should be on the MeeGo forum and I don't see how that would be an issue for the users of the legacy OS(s).

To argue that a separation of the two forums (old and new) would cause a lowered development focus for the legacy OS would, I think, make most 770, N800 and N810 users smirk a bit these days as we are already the neglected ones. This way at least we might have a forum that is readable :)

I wouldn't necessarily argue with that point at all. But since it has proven impossible to get such a structure in place here at tmo I think I am naturally cautious when thinking it would work 'over there'.

Also, remember that with MeeGo it is no longer an OS dedicated to Nokia devices. There may well be 10's (more?) of devices running MeeGo in a couple of years. I wouldn't want to rely on 'tags' to search such a forum for, say, "N810 applications" and I don't think that it would make sense to have every device as a sub-forum under each category (app, etc). In the end I think the legacy devices on a MeeGo forum would be one category named "Legacy Maemo Devices such as 770, N800, N810, N900)".

Obviously this IS the internet and we all have our opinions. The above is just mine.

Re: MeeGo forum? (maemo.org round)
 

Just noticed that MeeGo.com does not really force everyone to use OpenID. It's an option. That means we need to link directly to the meego user database. What I can do however is provide a required field, during registration, that will ask for the user's corresponding username at MeeGo.com. Getting dirty already.

Re: MeeGo forum? (maemo.org round)
 

Yes, of course, would be appreciated for sure, I'm only against automatic accounts creation, nothing more than that.

Re: MeeGo forum? (maemo.org round)
 

Well, I am an N810 user, and a N900 user*, and I for one read threads about legacy applets like Advanced Backlight because I want it on the N900, and other things from the N900 that I should have an interest in as an N810 owner. The thing is, while the versions are different, the eco systems are quite similar because some key persons on this site (i dunno, qwerty as an example?) will interact with both user groups at the same time and thus see a reason to have both user groups at interest.

It's not impossible at all. This is all just PHP and databases. It's a question of resources. And all the resources will be put into the MeeGo forum, not the Maemo forum - because they're only ever put into either forums because they need to if they want to sell devices. There will be no selling Maemo devices, so no resources.

That said, you're probably right. They're probably only going to fix noise if they have to. But... :



You may well be right. But consider this: if they want MeeGo to work at all, they HAVE to be good at handling users from many different devices on different versions of software. Or it will fail. So, the question is 15+ vs 10+ on one site and 5 on the other. They will put the resources into making it work for the 10+ new ones. If they don't manage, they won't have success in the future. If they do manage, I might as well be there instead on the smaller, quieter place.

So well, while I see your points and you may have it completely right, I expect them to try harder there.

* You know, it's an odd thing maybe, but with the recent announcements from Nokia, I feel more abandoned as an N900 owner than an N810 owner. The N810 is everything I hoped it would be, but the N900 feels like Nokia just disowned it.

Re: MeeGo forum? (maemo.org round)
 

And either way, the sites doesn't really have to be a single GUI/activity list to manage to have single log on. I am also a member of a norwegian discussion forum that happens to have one site for discussions, one for price comparisons, one for cameras, one for hardware, one for cell phones... All with a single log on. More users/interests doesn't always mean too much noise.

Re: MeeGo forum? (maemo.org round)
 

I can understand that. I really like my N810 and I also bought it when it was already a legacy device in terms of Nokia support of it so I knew exactly what I was getting.

Had I bought an N900 I might have felt as if Nokia had bailed on it a bit early but looking back at the software-support strategy Nokia have for their devices I think I would had known it was coming and been prepared for it. :)

Re: MeeGo forum? (maemo.org round)
 

There are already single-sign-on problems at meego.com. Trying to edit the wiki after already signing up on meego.com leads to a bit of a rat's maze of "login" links and confirmation e-mails and "you cannot edit this page" errors...

Re: MeeGo forum? (maemo.org round)
 

Had to highlight my difficulty, didn't you. :p

Re: MeeGo forum? (maemo.org round)
 

Dude, you just made the most noise about it. We all had our "wtf" moments with the MeeGo wiki.

Looking at the website team, it is clear that they're all Intel/Moblin guys, so we need to bring them in on the discussion. I hope they don't get upset that we're over here talking about changing the website they built...

Re: MeeGo forum? (maemo.org round)
 

My opinions to the matter at hand...

1st - As mentioned and stressed many times before the single-sing-in is a must

[QUOTE;Volt]It is more important than anything else if you want my kind of people to follow from this site to the other one. Personally I would love to vote on brainstorms. But I do not because I will not create another user account. I have bugs to report and suggestions to how to improve them - it's part of my daytime job to create fix bugs - but I will not create a new account for bugzilla... [/QUOTE]


2nd - Somekind of a voluntary migration of the most important account statistics would be good compromise. (wouldn't do much for us noobs but...) The old and the wise (the ones that have laboured and contributed on behalf of Maemo.org and Moblin.org for long and hard) would not have to start from scrach and from both maemo and moblin wizards would also recognise each other more easily right from the beginning. There could be some "migration tool" inside the MeeGo.com account management where every user could migrate their own Maemo/Moblin account statistics to MeeGo.com account.

Re: MeeGo forum? (maemo.org round)
 

I don't know. Maybe not a bad idea to start from scratch. New OS, new, even field for everyone. No carry-over Karma, post totals, etc. Also, since there were no forums for Moblin users wouldn't they immediately feel 'bad' about all those Maemo people coming over with a lot of 'history'.

Re: MeeGo forum? (maemo.org round)
 

Point taken.

That would create an uneven/unfair situation to start from.

:confused:...Is it just me or do others find it a bit odd that they (old moblin.org community) don't have any proper forum and thus no "history" to migrate/convert into the new forum?

Re: MeeGo forum? (maemo.org round)
 

How many of those are active?

Re: MeeGo forum? (maemo.org round)
 

As of about 6 months ago, half of the accounts were disabled (e.g. spammers and the like). So already we can say the number of active users is < 15,000.

Re: MeeGo forum? (maemo.org round)
 

How many of those are Orange Box?

Re: MeeGo forum? (maemo.org round)
 

I'd like to keep this format for this Forum, but start from scratch and use single sign on for all parts of site. I feel really bad for the older devices though that have nothing to do with meego, somehow doesn't feel natural for them to follow to meego, but don't wanna leave them out either :/

Also have to play nice and let Moblin integrate in to Maemo so we can advance to MeeGo, that's why starting from scratch is important to level the playing field.

Re: MeeGo forum? (maemo.org round)
 

Randomly thinking about it more from the MeeGo side, perhaps we shouldn't count on a high degree of integration.

MeeGo is going to support multiple x86 and ARM based devices from a wide range of OEMs. Nokia provides most of the ARM based code, and is also a device manufacturer. We are used to Maemo being an integrated software stack from low level all the way up to UX. But if you read Nokia's software strategy paper, MeeGo is just the OS - it doesn't include the UI and other elements of the software or the CPU. So MeeGo is going to be similar to Android in the respect that there may be a lot of other software on top of it (some proprietary) that is going to vary from device to device and manufacturer to manufacturer.

If you are a "benevolent dictator" at meego.com responsible for the success of MeeGo OS, are you going to want to spend a lot of time dealing with stuff other than the OS? I think not. You will say to people, we will provide the best OS we can, and you the OEMs provide the best devices you can using it.

On the community front, are you going to want a lot of people from t.m.o (or elsewhere) talking about their issues, many of which are not about the OS itself, on meego.com talking about those non-OS issues. Probably not. What is the benefit for doing so when you have a multi-layered ecosystem. And what will you say to the other manufacturers using MeeGo, bring your forums too and we will have a rainbow coalition of people talking about their interests. I doubt it. You will want the technical people that can help the OS and that's it. Of course, this is conjecture and I don't know what Meego wants.

Now back to maemo.org, Nokia's MeeGo devices are going to have Ovi and presumably use a Maemo derived UI on them. Are there going to be issues to be discussed about the Nokia MeeGo devices' UI and Ovi that are similar to many of those discussed now on t.m.o? Yes. Will we try to get MeeGo to run on N900 and Maemo apps to run on MeeGo? Yes. So there will be reasons for discussion on t.m.o. that are unique to Nokia meego devices and not other devices or Meego itself? Yes.

It's not that we shouldn't try to integrate and do everything we can to work with MeeGo. We should. But with the Android like structure and business model for MeeGo, I wonder if it will ultimately make sense to everyone involved to do so. I am not necessarily despondent for the future of maemo.org in any event. Maemo.org grew up around one or two maemo devices at a time, there should be more Nokia MeeGo devices and software in the future and plenty for maemo.org to do.

Re: MeeGo forum? (maemo.org round)
 

Probably because they know that all forums suck and mailing lists are much more effective.