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Icyseanfitz 2010-05-15 23:34
Re: The moon is the door to the solar system
 
ya but whats stopping countries rolling in money? if we dont do thing because the cost scares us we will get no where plus there was a good plan to go to mars for a year that really wouldn't have costed much, it was to send two space craft to mars the first an unmanned space craft with hydrogen fuel for a return trip and then a manned craft to mars

Icyseanfitz 2010-05-15 23:36
Re: The moon is the door to the solar system
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by festivalnut (Post 660160)
well most of the governments would face a revolution if they started pumping 50% of their gdp into space exploration!
such a large investment would probably depend mostly on private investment, and with the short/medium term reward being cerebral rather than monetary, not many of the people or business with the amount of money we're talking here would be willing to invest at the moment.
personally i think all major governments should join forces when it comes to space exploration it would cut the cost down an awful lot if everyone worked together (perfect world ha :))

YoDude 2010-05-15 23:37
Re: The moon is the door to the solar system
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dollyknot (Post 659988)
The high cost to the human race's colonisation of space is caused by the complexity and danger of reaching and leaving escape velocity within the earth's atmosphere.

The Space Shuttle turned out to be an expensive and dangerous white elephant, the reason the Shuttle was so expensive is, because of its complexity with millions of different manufactured parts, and the need to cover it with bathroom tiles.

There is another route, we can reach the edge of space no problem Burt Rutan proved this with Space Ship one, when he won the 'X' prize by reaching over 100 km twice in one week.

Yes the Shuttle was 'reusable' but in name only. They could not have turned that around in a week.

What NASA should be doing is creating rocket fuel on the moon, there is lots of water on the moon, use solar energy to split water into hydrogen and oxygen, which when combined make very good rocket fuel, because of Newton's third law.

Use the rocket fuel to fuel a space tug, use the space tug to accelerate and decelerate Space Ship one, to and from escape velocity in the safe vacuum of space, no atmosphere = no friction = no heat = no bathroom tiles and no foam shielding on the external fuel tank.

Less bathroom tiles + insulation foam = less rocket fuel = less pollution in the Mexican Gulf.

Once we can accelerate and decelerate space craft with rocket fuel that is obtained from outside of the earth's gravity well, space travel becomes cheaper by many orders of magnitude, ok the capital cost would be very high, but once the systems are in place, the number of human beings, living in space increases exponentially.

A good example for the way very high capital cost projects work, is the Panama canal.

http://dollyknot.com
Um... your argument is based on me spending my tax dollars?

Where is the UK's space program located? Maybe they will use your ideas in their next project. :)

Icyseanfitz 2010-05-15 23:39
Re: The moon is the door to the solar system
 
ha id love if my tax was going into something constructive for the human race instead of going into some bankers pocket

Dollyknot 2010-05-15 23:40
Re: The moon is the door to the solar system
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by festivalnut (Post 660160)
well most of the governments would face a revolution if they started pumping 50% of their gdp into space exploration!
such a large investment would probably depend mostly on private investment, and with the short/medium term reward being cerebral rather than monetary, not many of the people or business with the amount of money we're talking here would be willing to invest at the moment.
Money don't feed people, work feeds people, money is an insidious form of slavery, performed with the desire to depersonalize the persons wallet you are trying to empty, justified by calling them a 'punter' like 'punters' are somehow not human, so it is okay to rip them off?

Icyseanfitz 2010-05-15 23:43
Re: The moon is the door to the solar system
 
a major worldwide space program for exploring the galaxy would create an untold amount of jobs sigh if only someone like jfk was alive at least he had vision :(

festivalnut 2010-05-15 23:50
Re: The moon is the door to the solar system
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dollyknot (Post 660170)
Money don't feed people, work feeds people, money is an insidious form of slavery, performed with the desire to depersonalize the persons wallet you are trying to empty, justified by calling them a 'punter' like 'punters' are somehow not human, so it is okay to rip them off?
man you're so high i think you're near orbit already! Yup money's the root of all evil, but right now its a fact of life, and if you're ten step plan to colonise the solar system involves ridding the world of money, you're going to run into some problems!

who's ripping who off? who mentioned the word punter before you? what the hell did you put in your pipe before you coined the phrase "depersonalize the persons wallet"?

yes in an ideal world we could all get bye as equals and live on work and merit alone. but will you be the guy mining miles beneath the earths core for the precious metals required for space flight? only to swap them for a meal and a beer? no didn't think so.

Dollyknot 2010-05-15 23:55
Re: The moon is the door to the solar system
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icyseanfitz (Post 660162)
ya but whats stopping countries rolling in money? if we dont do thing because the cost scares us we will get no where plus there was a good plan to go to mars for a year that really wouldn't have costed much, it was to send two space craft to mars the first an unmanned space craft with hydrogen fuel for a return trip and then a manned craft to mars
First we must make the achievement of human orbital velocity far cheaper and safer than than the shuttle made it.

Using the the provable rocket fuel that is probably on the moon is the way forward.

Apart from the fact that it worked, the Apollo program was remarkably silly if the rocket fuel was already up there, why go to the extraordinary effort of lifting all that delta v up from the ground, when it is up there already?

Icyseanfitz 2010-05-15 23:55
Re: The moon is the door to the solar system
 
could probably make machines that do that for us :) controlled by my n900
"at festivalnut"

Icyseanfitz 2010-05-15 23:57
Re: The moon is the door to the solar system
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dollyknot (Post 660185)
First we must make the achievement of human orbital velocity far cheaper and safer than than the shuttle made it.

Using the the provable rocket fuel that is probably on the moon is the way forward.

Apart from the fact that it worked, the Apollo program was remarkably silly if the rocket fuel was already up there, why go to the extraordinary effort of lifting all that delta v up from the ground, when it is up there already?
well tbh they probably didnt know what was up there then and the easiest way to solve the massive cost of leaving earth orbit would be to make all spacecraft in space god i hope i live to see some of this stuff probably not though :(

festivalnut 2010-05-16 00:11
Re: The moon is the door to the solar system
 
Thud...

Thud...

Thud...

Dollyknot 2010-05-16 00:19
Re: The moon is the door to the solar system
 
Good night world

xomm 2010-05-16 00:22
Re: The moon is the door to the solar system
 
That website of your's, dollyknot, by the way, is aesthetically painful. >.<

xomm 2010-05-16 00:29
Re: The moon is the door to the solar system
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by festivalnut (Post 660193)
Thud...

Thud...

Thud...
Fi Fie Fo Fum, I smell the blood of a dreamer.

silvermountain 2010-05-16 00:43
Re: The moon is the door to the solar system
 
How sad. The initial post was actually pretty interesting, albet simplified to the point that it skewed facts, but the follow-up posts from the author makes me wonder if he didn't copy and paste the OP as those posts are far from insightful and constructive.

I also see the irony in saying that, and posting this.

Dollyknot 2010-05-16 01:00
Re: The moon is the door to the solar system
 
That website of your's, dollyknot, by the way, is aesthetically painful.

It has been designed so as to ask those who run human society aren't missing a piece of their male brain sensory apparatus.

Apart from the sensual feeling of how fat their wallet is?

YoDude 2010-05-16 01:29
Re: The moon is the door to the solar system
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by silvermountain (Post 660223)
How sad. The initial post was actually pretty interesting, albet simplified to the point that it skewed facts, but the follow-up posts from the author makes me wonder if he didn't copy and paste the OP as those posts are far from insightful and constructive.

I also see the irony in saying that, and posting this.
Hits invisible thanks button and goes to bed...

Wake me when they figure out how to cap that man made disaster in the gulf of Mexico on this freakin' planet first. Then we'll talk extra terrestrial colonization.

That is, unless we continue to turn this place into a toilet and have to go to plan "B" :rolleyes:


Quote:
...in the future, the earth is over-run with garbage and devoid of plant and animal life; the consequence of years of environmental degradation and thoughtless consumerism. Humans are now living on the spaceship Axiom after vacating Earth centuries earlier. The original plan was for humans to live in outer space temporarily while cleaning robots prepared Earth for recolonization...

di1in 2010-05-16 01:32
Re: The moon is the door to the solar system
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dollyknot (Post 660229)
It has been designed so as to ask those who run human society aren't missing a piece of their male brain sensory apparatus.
What? .

ysss 2010-05-16 01:42
Re: The moon is the door to the solar system
 
Can we just send a whole bunch of people to the moon and strap a propeller to it, so it can go on its merry own way?

Flynx 2010-05-16 05:20
Re: The moon is the door to the solar system
 
I see what you are saying. Use rockets to slow down before coming home and you don't need a heat shield.

This is true.

The problem is the balance of energy and the amount of fuel that would be required to slow down. Using the shuttle as an example, it would take nearly as much fuel as the shuttle burns at launch to slow it down enough.

Right now shuttle Atlantis is in orbit at an altitude of 220 miles and a speed of ~16,600 mph.

The energy associated with going 16,600 mph is MOST of the energy in the space shuttle. Getting to an altitude of 220 miles doesn't take much energy.

Lets see why....

The energy needed to get to an altitude is given by:

e(p) = m*g*h

where e(p) is potential energy, m is the mass, g is the acceleration of gravity and h is the altitude.

The energy needed to accelerate to a speed is given by:

e(k) = 0.5*m*v^2

where e(k) is kenetic energy, and v is velocity.

Now if we divide the two equations, we can get the ratio of the two energies (and mass conveniently cancels out)

e(k)/e(p) = (0.5*v^2)/(g*h)

using SI units of meters and seconds to fill in the numbers...

e(k)/e(p) = (0.5*7421^2)/(9.81*354000)

e(k)/e(p) = 27535621 / 3472740

e(k)/e(p) = 8

That means that only about 11% of the thrust from the main engines and solid rocket boosters was used to lift the shuttle to 220 miles. The other 89% of all that thrust was used to accelerate the shuttle to 16,600 mph. (Most of the shuttle's ascent flight is horizontal. Only the first little part is vertical - to quickly get out of the atmosphere so you can accelerate without friction like you mentioned.)

You would have to slow the shuttle back down to zero mph if you don't want to use a heat shield. Space Ship One has an apogee velocity of practically zero. Remember you will accelerate quickly as you fall.

So you wouldn't need an entire external tank full of fuel plus two solid rocket boosters. You would only need 90% of them.*

This is why it is so much cheaper to use tiles and reinforced-carbon-carbon composite panels (both of which are reusable) than try to burn fuel (which is not reusable) to slow down.

*Remember - if you have the fuel available to slow down, that means the fuel is also going 16,600 mph and you have to slow down the mass of the fuel as well.


EDIT: This also shows why SpaceShipOne was such an "easy" accomplishment. (I put easy in quotes because it was in no way easy. Burt spent roughly $50 million dollars in order to claim the $10 million dollar X-prize - a net loss of $40 million).

Point is - SpaceShipOne only had to reach altitude, which is only the first 11% of getting to orbit. And it launched from an airborne platform, not the ground, so that knocks off even more. SpaceShipOne itself probably only had about 9% of the energy needed to get to orbit. And even that little amount was difficult for them to control - as evidenced by the flight that corkscrewed. When you consider all the other vehicle systems, calling Space Ship One a spacecraft is like calling a fish that jumps out of water a bird.

Flynx 2010-05-16 05:39
Re: The moon is the door to the solar system
 
Also, if you live in the United States, please write your congressman and tell them how important manned space exploration is to our country and our species as a whole.

I would like to still have a job next year :D

Icyseanfitz 2010-05-16 14:07
Re: The moon is the door to the solar system
 
^^^ this people really dont understand how important space exploration is for 1. it could solve all our energy needs 2. answer some very important questions 3. could save us if anything truly bad happened on this planet.
We are a race of naturally curious people we have an intelligent brain for a reason i truly hope to see some advances in space exploration in my time but at the current rate i just dont know if i will and im young (20 years) i heard something about nasa maybe going to the moon in 15 - 20 years ehhh we have already gone with stone age tech for crying out load :(

xomm 2010-05-16 14:19
Re: The moon is the door to the solar system
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flynx (Post 660366)
I see what you are saying. Use rockets to slow down before coming home and you don't need a heat shield.

This is true.

The problem is the balance of energy and the amount of fuel that would be required to slow down. Using the shuttle as an example, it would take nearly as much fuel as the shuttle burns at launch to slow it down enough.

Right now shuttle Atlantis is in orbit at an altitude of 220 miles and a speed of ~16,600 mph.

The energy associated with going 16,600 mph is MOST of the energy in the space shuttle. Getting to an altitude of 220 miles doesn't take much energy.

Lets see why....

The energy needed to get to an altitude is given by:

e(p) = m*g*h

where e(p) is potential energy, m is the mass, g is the acceleration of gravity and h is the altitude.

The energy needed to accelerate to a speed is given by:

e(k) = 0.5*m*v^2

where e(k) is kenetic energy, and v is velocity.

Now if we divide the two equations, we can get the ratio of the two energies (and mass conveniently cancels out)

e(k)/e(p) = (0.5*v^2)/(g*h)

using SI units of meters and seconds to fill in the numbers...

e(k)/e(p) = (0.5*7421^2)/(9.81*354000)

e(k)/e(p) = 27535621 / 3472740

e(k)/e(p) = 8

That means that only about 11% of the thrust from the main engines and solid rocket boosters was used to lift the shuttle to 220 miles. The other 89% of all that thrust was used to accelerate the shuttle to 16,600 mph. (Most of the shuttle's ascent flight is horizontal. Only the first little part is vertical - to quickly get out of the atmosphere so you can accelerate without friction like you mentioned.)

You would have to slow the shuttle back down to zero mph if you don't want to use a heat shield. Space Ship One has an apogee velocity of practically zero. Remember you will accelerate quickly as you fall.

So you wouldn't need an entire external tank full of fuel plus two solid rocket boosters. You would only need 90% of them.*

This is why it is so much cheaper to use tiles and reinforced-carbon-carbon composite panels (both of which are reusable) than try to burn fuel (which is not reusable) to slow down.

*Remember - if you have the fuel available to slow down, that means the fuel is also going 16,600 mph and you have to slow down the mass of the fuel as well.


EDIT: This also shows why SpaceShipOne was such an "easy" accomplishment. (I put easy in quotes because it was in no way easy. Burt spent roughly $50 million dollars in order to claim the $10 million dollar X-prize - a net loss of $40 million).

Point is - SpaceShipOne only had to reach altitude, which is only the first 11% of getting to orbit. And it launched from an airborne platform, not the ground, so that knocks off even more. SpaceShipOne itself probably only had about 9% of the energy needed to get to orbit. And even that little amount was difficult for them to control - as evidenced by the flight that corkscrewed. When you consider all the other vehicle systems, calling Space Ship One a spacecraft is like calling a fish that jumps out of water a bird.
*Clap Clap Clap.*

How about a space elevator? A rope of carbon fiber connected to a orbiting dock, held taut by centrifugal (sp?) force.

Obviously we don't have the means to create carbon fiber ropes, but meh.

Icyseanfitz 2010-05-16 14:24
Re: The moon is the door to the solar system
 
i watched something on some documentary channel a year or two back about someone fabricating some material that was 100's of times stronger than carbon fiber, but ya that is probably the most cost effective way of doing it if someone can pull it off

cyanith 2010-05-16 14:38
Re: The moon is the door to the solar system
 
The elevators from Gundam 00.... yup... thats the way to go.

Icyseanfitz 2010-05-16 14:45
Re: The moon is the door to the solar system
 
they are actually feasible if they can get a material to hold them in orbit maybe not on the same size (where they big in gundam never watched it)

rpgAmazon 2010-05-16 14:46
Re: The moon is the door to the solar system
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by xomm (Post 660859)
*Clap Clap Clap.*

How about a space elevator? A rope of carbon fiber connected to a orbiting dock, held taut by centrifugal (sp?) force.

Obviously we don't have the means to create carbon fiber ropes, but meh.
Weellllll... do you hear about "grafeno"?
(I don't know how in english is named)
AMAZING properties... we'll love it.

xomm 2010-05-16 14:47
Re: The moon is the door to the solar system
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyanith (Post 660884)
The elevators from Gundam 00.... yup... thats the way to go.
Actually, I heard it from one of Michio Kaku's documentaries...

Icyseanfitz 2010-05-16 15:04
Re: The moon is the door to the solar system
 
Michio Kaku is a legend love watching anything that guy talks about

Dollyknot 2010-05-16 17:35
Re: The moon is the door to the solar system
 
Mm when the whole stack is ready to rumble it weighs 2,000,000 kg, the idea of getting all that weight off the ground boggles the mind.

Space ship one fully laden, weighs 3,600 kg.

So how much moon mined delta v would it take to accelerate SS1to escape velocity?

Obviously the moon tug will have to have expend some fuel, getting from the moon to earth orbit and slowing down to the speed of SS1 which would be 3,518 km/h, then accelerate the whole kit and caboodle, back up up to orbital velocity and beyond?

Flynx 2010-05-16 17:39
Re: The moon is the door to the solar system
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by xomm (Post 660900)
Actually, I heard it from one of Michio Kaku's documentaries...
Michio Kaku is freakin' awesome!

The space elevator is a great idea; its simple and it gets rid of the controlled explosion to get into space.

Flynx 2010-05-16 17:54
Re: The moon is the door to the solar system
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dollyknot (Post 661107)
Mm when the whole stack is ready to rumble it weighs 2,000,000 kg, the idea of getting all that weight off the ground boggles the mind.

Space ship one fully laden, weighs 3,600 kg.

So how much moon mined delta v would it take to accelerate SS1to escape velocity?

Obviously the moon tug will have to have expend some fuel, getting from the moon to earth orbit and slowing down to the speed of SS1 which would be 3,518 km/h, then accelerate the whole kit and caboodle, back up up to orbital velocity and beyond?
Well, mass cancelled out in the equations. So the mass of the vehicle doesn't matter. However much energy it takes to get to orbit, it will take 90% of that energy to slow back down.

Also, comparing the mass of the shuttle to the mass of spaceshipone is not a fair comparison.

The shuttle stays in space for weeks, and carries a crew of 7. In order to do that, the shuttle has to carry food, water, oxygen, carbon dioxide scrubbers, air filters and vacuums, bathroom facilities, fuel cells, liquid hydrogen, liquid oxygen, hypergolic RCS fuel, Orbital Maneuvering Engines (OMS) and fuel, satellite transcievers, thermal radiators and cooling systems, space navigational systems like star trackers, a galley to cook food, places to sleep, EVA suits, oh yeah and it has a payload bay that can carry 15+ tons of cargo.

SpaceShipOne carries 1 guy and a pony-bottle of oxygen. Really, space ship one is much more similar to a Mercury capsule. It can't stay in space for more than a few minutes.

Dollyknot 2010-05-16 17:58
Re: The moon is the door to the solar system
 
The problem is we don't have the time, the human race is being overwhelmed by a tide of decadence and pollution, we urgently need a sane direction. When we were exploring the planet we had a direction. We know where everything is now and it gets increasingly boring.

The kids need a dream that is realizable, space will never be achieved, unless a far cheaper method of reaching orbital velocity and beyond is reached and soon.

Flynx 2010-05-16 18:07
Re: The moon is the door to the solar system
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dollyknot (Post 661137)
The problem is we don't have the time, the human race is being overwhelmed by a tide of decadence and pollution, we urgently need a sane direction. When we were exploring the planet we had a direction. We know where everything is now and it gets increasingly boring.

The kids need a dream that is realizable, space will never be achieved, unless a far cheaper method of reaching orbital velocity and beyond is reached and soon.
I totally agree.

We recently launched a new satellite specifically designed to detect planets around other stars.

Living on a planet like mars or even the moon is difficult without a global magnetic field to shield from space radiation, a thick enough breathable atmosphere, adequate temperature and liquid water.

We are detecting new planets around other stars nearly every single day now.

I think that when we find an earth-like planet that meets all the above criteria - such that all we have to do is get there, there will be a resurgence in space travel - even if it is a century before we can make it to the new planet.

Dollyknot 2010-05-16 18:10
Re: The moon is the door to the solar system
 
The shuttle has been cancelled, Atlantis is flying her last mission, so NASA disagrees with you that the shuttle is a viable concept, if it were viable, they would be building new shuttles.

My idea has not been tried, so it is possible that it could work, the number of *experts* who got it wrong like the guy who said the planet would only need about 5 computer.

Or Bill Gates who said "640K of memory should be enough for anybody."

Rauha 2010-05-16 18:19
Re: The moon is the door to the solar system
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dollyknot (Post 661137)
The problem is we don't have the time, the human race is being overwhelmed by a tide of decadence and pollution, we urgently need a sane direction.
Or maybe it would be better not to let humanity ruin the rest of the unverse as well.

;)

Icyseanfitz 2010-05-16 18:30
Re: The moon is the door to the solar system
 
what is the new rocket that is being developed i saw it on discovery a while back it reminded me of the old Saturn rockets for the Apollo missions, and the space elevator is defiantly the way to go to cut down costs;
how do you track far off planets its something to do with their sun having a wobble isnt it?

Flynx 2010-05-16 18:31
Re: The moon is the door to the solar system
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dollyknot (Post 661156)
The shuttle has been cancelled, Atlantis is flying her last mission, so NASA disagrees with you that the shuttle is a viable concept, if it were viable, they would be building new shuttles.
Actually... NASA wants to expand to asteroids, the moon, and mars.

Unfortunately, the Space Shuttle was designed specifically to be a complete bad-***** in LEO (Low Earth Orbit). The shuttle isn't capable of leaving LEO. So you can't go to the moon in a shuttle.

NASA needs a new vehicle, which Lockheed is working on (Orion). Problem is, the government won't give NASA enough money for both. So we are retiring the shuttles so we can spend that money on spacecraft that can leave LEO and go to places like the moon or mars.

Flynx 2010-05-16 18:33
Re: The moon is the door to the solar system
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rauha (Post 661171)
Or maybe it would be better not to let humanity ruin the rest of the unverse as well.

;)
The Smiths were correct - humanity is a virus. It will expand until all its resources are consumed. Then move on or die out.

ossipena 2010-05-16 18:33
Re: The moon is the door to the solar system
 
[QUOTE=Dollyknot;660085]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ossipena (Post 660078)
I am aware about the fact that bathroom tiles and ceramic tiles manufactured to spaceships thermal shields

Why do you think bathroom tiles and spaceship tiles have nothing in common, is it because you are god and must win every argument?
I am not a god. But all they have in common is some atoms. So almost anything has something in common to something...


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