Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

Indeed. It is usually in the most open communities and governments that people cry wolf about censorship and abuse. What they fail to realise is that abuse and censorship they cry about wouldn't allow them to formulate their thoughts in the first place, had it ever existed.

In other words, the paradox of free thought: The freer it is, the narrower it becomes.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

*sigh*

Enjoy your break I guess, Tex. I would think you know full well I understand the history, I was merely offering my word of warning on appearance - and not at all attacking your moderating, or your decisions.

I've never personally seen you overstep your bounds. In fact, several times I've often thought you had full right to enact a moderation during discussions that you never did - but at the same time I'm saying that when doing what your saying (offering an opinion in a closing statement) - it appears like a personal act of moderation, rather than a logical one to the general populace.

I know you, I know that wasn't/isn't/never has been your intent and I know you don't mod that way.. but to newcomers, or to people who don't read all the sections of the forum to get a full picture: Seeing a somewhat off-handed remark right before a close makes people wonder what happened there.

That was my only intention. Sometimes you really let that heart on your sleeve take more of a beating than was meant, man ;). (at least from me)

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

You're actually saying the first post here wasn't addressing the thread of h3llraz0r's I closed? Really?

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

He's a moderator. That's called a job. An unpaid one at that. It's his responsibility to make those decisions and act on them.

If you have specific complaints or questions, I'm quite sure PMing Tex for an explanation, or PMing Reggie with a complaint is perfectly acceptable.

Some threads are just simply completely useless, provide nothing but negativity, and do not need to be perpetuated any further. That's where the mods come in.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

Ok. let's be constructive then.

Let us help you help the Community Textrat.

Forget about the past. Past shmast. How can we make this a better place?

How about. We make it clear that this is not a service forum for nokia? have a banner? stickies? you know"? make it clear?

so at least then with have better bases for the actions we take?

Why not have a grievances category? you quickly dismissed the suggestion? why?

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

So anyone who disagrees with you is an insane sociopath.

Yeah, right.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

Um there???

Was the post a result of your closing hellrazr thread YES. Did I mention YOU, NOPE.

It was more of a final straw, not just a whim I am on.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

He did not say that explicitly. You are the one on edge and jumped right into it.

I apologize. I'm the one who posted the link and possibily added fuel to fire. I'm very sorry about that.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

no. you just came here, made people feel miserable and started a fight that simply cannot lead anywhere.... this is one of the threads that should be closed. IMO.

(you know, you keep stressing this free speech thing here. IMO, people here shouldn't think of rights they believe they have. in reality, they have only few and free speech is certainly not one of them. people should think about their responsibilities instead.)

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

Sure.

But "I'm going to close threads that are solely designed to attack the community."? Sounds like censoring based on content to me (and perhaps somebody is taking things personally)..

And no "free speech"?

:eek::eek::eek:

I'm pretty sure that's not the kind of change the community wants...

methinks that Texrat has gotten a little battle weary from all the trolls and needs (and deserves) to take some R&R

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

Please take a look at my final posts. There is still a chance some good idea can come from this discussion.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

Actually no I have never dismissed a grievance category. In fact I'm on record here as supporting such a thing. So I'm confused by your claim.

But 3 points:

1. We don't currently have one.

2. Even if we did, in many cases there would be no resolution of the issue from this community. It would have to come from Nokia-- and Nokia has channels for that.

3. Threads that are strictly designed to attack this community or its members have no place whatsoever here in my opinion. Anywhere.

I'm sorry for being testy in this thread, but when the old axiom of no good deed going unpunished gets too real for performing an unpaid job then, well, it gets a little frustrating.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

Thanks for your apology. Accepted.

But let's not be disingenuous about the original post, okay? I don't think asking for intellectual honesty is out of line. Implicit, explicit-- the root remains the same.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

To be clear, I was in process of writing a message to Hellrazr, which was clear, well thought out and perhaps would give him something to think about.

I was stopped from doing this. So I directed my dismay towards a community thread. You can close it, and we will be right back where we are now.

Perhaps some CLEAR rules for the forum would allow threads to be closed without opinions to be expressed and without further inflaming the community. This would also allow mods to point at the rules that someone has broken.

Subjective opinions are not great reasons to close threads. At least if you pointed to a written rule NOBODY can argue with your judgement.

Stop getting your feelings hurt and think, is there a better way?

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

I think quite a few people on both sides need to take a deep breath and lower their shields a bit.

PB: Texrat takes threads about moderation personally because, even when generic, he is a moderator, and is one of the ones being referred to. Also, if he decides that he is unsure anymore why he should spend hours of his personal life trying to help a community that doesn't seem to want or need that help - then he has every right to do that.

Tex: I don't think PB's intent was as maligned as you originally took it. I think he was expressing a point of view and wanted a discussion on how the community (you keep bolding, so I can too! :p) wants this to be handled in the future.

After all, that's what these threads are for: To judge what the majority of people here want to see. AFAIK: We are more democratic run than dictator-driven.. so judging peoples opinions every once in a while is not bad.

I think this (among many other threads) could have been a rather constructive look at the state of things at T.M.O. As w00t said, most people on all sides agree the atmosphere around here has increasingly sucked.

Unfortunately, people (this on ALL SIDES) are taking things too personally, and getting too defensive - to have a truly constructive opinion. Maybe we should enact the old, unused Brainstorm system and open a Brainstorm thread on "How to improve the T.M.O. atmosphere".

Unfortunately, I think that'll turn quickly negative as the rest start, or become very quickly. :(

All I know is.. something (not directing this at moderators, not directing this at Reggie, Nokia, or anyone in particular) needs to change. We need to find how to migrate back to the way we felt with iTT. That was a home: This is becoming a homeless shelter.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

LOL!
N900 is not definitively designed for mass-users.
We all love coding, we all love screwing guts...
And we all love fighting! Everyone at his modality (trolling, fanboying, moderating or banning)
Just today, I killed my "troll side"... What a pity, if he could come here...
The fact is that maemo.org is amazing, always with guru support, always with tech suport, and always with a little bit of fight!!!

C'mon, be honest... I love it, and ALL OF YOU LOVE IT TOO!
Nothing bad about it... what about a beer watching next match? what about a little rest?
IMHO, of course.
Cheers!

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

Not what I said. Please re-read my statements objectively.

And I decided to take a breath and try a calmer approach to the discussion. You're welcome to contribute; thanks for anything constructive you have to say.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

True there won't be a resolution from Nokia. But atleast, they'll be in one place. Leaving the important catogries cleaner. And we'll have a specific action to perform when ones POP out in other forums. We can say something like. "Dear Poster, this has been moved to the grevances forums. feel free to continue posting there. sorry for any inconvenine"

If a thread is too bad, and it really spirals out of control to an offensive attack. Even after moving to grevances. You can just delete it and PM the original poster + Ban.

Edit: I'm just saying. If we think together, we can try out some things. You know. help ourselves!

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

Dealing with posters such as him has led me to a conclusion that such effort is wasted. They will not think about it or consider it, they have decided for whatever reason that their stance is -the- stance and anyone else is wrong. And if they can't -create- a thread, they find an existing one with a potentially volatile topic and immediately start trying to derail it.

Personally, after more than a few new threads with that tone, I'd just have banned the user for a couple days, deleted the last thread and been done with it with a perm-ban for a repeat. This forum may have been nicer in years past, but its moderating policies, indeed the lighter approach you seem to want, don't fit the sudden increase in numbers.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

I just would have really appreciated a less aggressive approach. Lately there has been way too much hostility here for my liking.

A PM or email first from PB would have been welcome and nice, too. I love public discourse but some private exchanges for clarification never hurt.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

I will say.. I've always like the idea of a "junk" area to move threads. Even if the thread is technically "on topic" but has become a pissing match or flame war.. just toss it off to an area that can be ignored.

Even closing it it stays there, in the category, for everyone to read and feel bad reading it. Just move it somewhere. Great idea, IMHO.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

This was the reason of my earlier posting...

Will this community perpetually go on 'after' MeeGo? In the same form?
Will it be able to continue to use the maemo banner after Nokia moves on to MeeGo?
Will it continue to exist after Nokia pulls off funding to it?

It sort of feel like a sinking ship right now and what's the point of all this fighting if things are going to move on to MeeGo anyway...

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

if its gotten that bad you might as well prevent users from creating new accounts that allow them post unless they have been referred to by an existing user in good standing.

No other measure will work - the fact of the matter is, the bad feeling exists, and since Nokia provides no useful support, ppl will come here and vent and it is natural as this is the only support (even though it is not official) venue that exists.

Any mechanism like starting another sub forum for these users does not address the underlying issue and is a bandaid that will fall off in time. People's anger will actually grow worse, not better. You just get more work.

The only other way is to post a big FAT disclaimer on account creation or something at the top of every forum _acknowledging_ all the problems of Nokia's bad service/support (i.e. Texrat's blog post) and say "Sorry, we agree with you that Nokia support sucks but we cant do anything about it regardless of what you post here" and state that the only way to get yourself heard is to post complaint's at Nokia's official forum and to no longer buy Nokia's devices in the future.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

Indeed, other moderators have already dealt with the poster in question more than once. I don't have ban powers so I do what I can in the scope of my privileges. My inclination is not to ban anyway, unless the poster is unrepentant and unrelenting in their aggressive behavior. Typically very few meet that criteria, and I'm always surprised when they are defended by anyone. Why would any community member support such hostile behavior?

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

This, I think, is actually the crux of the whole debate to begin with. Not specifically this thread, but the hostility here from everyone.

I can find nothing wrong with this. This was definitely a viable option at the beginning, but either way: We really do need a thread about this (not specifically closing threads, that's a symptom, but overall condition of the forum which is the real problem.)

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

Again you are supposing this is all about you.

Cmon, its about the community. Personal feelings aside.

This was NOT about Texrat, can you understand that. This is about how MY community is dealing with asshats?

Do I know who all the mods are, nope, I could have written Reggie, but there is no point.

Things get done here when the COMMUNITY says yeah, lets change this.

I am not on council anymore, so I have no need to discuss ANYTHING in private.

and one more time, NOT about YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!

EDIT
In fact my PM's are disabled, so don't bother PM'ing me

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

If people think THIS place is heavy-handed, keep an eye on the MeeGo forum. This place started out mostly open-- MeeGo is more restricted and I get the impression that will be the overall tone. More professionalism is expected of posters there.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

Here's my concern.. as MeeGo becomes more and more, we will mostly be migrating over to the MeeGo forums.

I do not want this forum's atmosphere to migrate with it.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

'Don't confuse me with the Facts! My mind is already made up"

I am reminded of this quote every day around here.

Speach is free for the owner of this site. (Of course they paid for it!)

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

It was about my actions. Come on Matthew, let's be honest about that and move on.

And for the record, I acknowledged I could have made a better choice in that thread. Thank you (and Corso and fatalsaint) for the heads-up if nothing else.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

I see, some of you still want to fight...
Well: ENG 1-0 USA
Obviously, Europe is better than America!
Think about it!
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

I think the point is that while you were a contributing factor you are not the sole focus of his disagreement.

You aren't the only moderator that does the things you do ;) (at least, I don't think so). So yes, he COULD have PM'd you specifically about YOUR thread you closed: but I'm sure PB had several threads in mind when he posted, yours just being the last one (most recent) that happened.

So while he could have gotten clarification on yours specifically, that wasn't really what he was after.. (if I'm reading him correctly.)

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

Not to be rude. But seriously......why are you here?

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

I worked as a moderator for a forum some time ago, for quite long time; with way more less than mature users and contents; and I believe that the only way to go is to be hard on the ones that go beyond the limit. And I have some lessons learned that I want to share.

What is this forum? It is a place for Maemo (or MeeGo) enthusiasts to talk about its devices; for developers to launch new applications; for people to TALK.

In the end; that is what we try to do here; to talk; and we must strive to do it in a civil way.

Penguin; the forum didn't went "bad" when it became sponsored by Nokia; it started going downhill with the launch of the N900.

Because it brought a lot of new people, some of which are not civil in any way.

I have done my best to try and teach some common things to this new people (mind you, I don't consider myself an expert); to give them perspective; to explain things. I see a lot of old-timers do that as well. And some of this new guys have turned out to be very valuable additions to the community.

But there is people that are just nasty; rude; that just insult you and the peace of the forum with idiotic threads and rants. If they don't want to reform themselves, then; ban them and close their threads. Period.

Some people talk about democracy and freedom of speech in the forum; but even democracy have laws; that must be followed.

There isn't censoring here. Anyone is free to disagree to anyone. Problems come when people with stretch minds that take disagreements as a personal offense, when they start shouting and throwing tantrums. That kind of things shouldn't be allowed.

There are times when I feel that I am in my house, calmly conversing with people about mobile technologies; and out of nothing some random guy comes in crashing and screaming Nokia sucks; and disrupting the place with bad behavior. Wouldn't you get him to calm himself or get out?

That is what moderation is about.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

@PB: Regarding sig.

How is that any different than what you occused Texrat of? (taking your ball and going home?)

:(

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

ITS NOT ABOUT YOU.

You were the final straw. Its been happening for months. I can be honest.

Texrat, you have known me (at least on here) for a long time.

IF I was trying to make this about you I would have said Texrat is being a dick. I did not, nor do I think that was your intent.

I purposely did not mention you. Perhaps I should have waited 6 hours and them maybe to wouldn't have gotten you while it was fresh.

To be honest. I believe free speech is welcome here including complaints.

Can you be honest with yourself Texrat, am I known to be delicate about my opinions? If my problem was with you, the thread title would have been "Sick of Texrat closing all the threads"

This is about the community and how asshats are handled, please recognize this.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

I think this forum is one of the most free and lenient one while keeping a workable and productive structure.

I've always held that in high regard and i guess i can appreciate that because i've seen and participated in other forums where things are either too free (anarchy reigns, nothing gets done) or the extreme opposite (everything is restricted, nothing gets done).

I guess if the official MeeGo forum is too... Un-maemo, we can still modify this shed to retain the community and what's great about it and just tack on a new label to the clubhouse? "Ye Olde Pre-MeeGo Supporter Club" or whatever.

Let's not lose ourselves here. There's something truly worth saving and holding on to.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

There is.. unfortunately there's also a point at which you have to realize that what you once loved is lost and is not returning.

Granted, I'm not saying we're there yet: But I am saying we need to keep a realistic perspective, and if we can't get the situation improving then T.M.O. will likely simply be a ghost of what it once was, and nothing left to fight for.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

I have no equipment, I did not get mad and leave. I just have less reason to be here. I have posted that I just got a new battery on ebay for my 810, which has me renewed again.

I was coming back occasionally and finding people had asked me questions for help and I was not here to answer them ( for weeks), so I gave them a way to contact me if they needed something.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

Ok, this was probably my fault. I usually don't read sig's but I did see your edit about disabled PM's, and then saw someone quote your sig with your post which made me focus on it.. and wrongly assumed that you only just disabled your PM's and only just put that sig up.

If it's been there a while I apologize and completely disregard my comment.