Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

I don't call "please" part of a policy.

But it would be nice if people applied common sense to that issue rather than sarcasm and spite.

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

yep, I have a contract with unlimited text and unlimited data and was a little suprised that I was charges 20p outside of this allowance. "n900 lover" you should see the number 84000 in your bill soon enough. 20p is nothing but it's the principle that is inexcusable since I had already registered for MyNokia before, online. Why they couldn't just keep with that web based registration is beyond me. It sends a text at the users cost even to unsubscribe.

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

expanding on the "Missteps" article:

http://tabulacrypticum.wordpress.com...okia-for-2010/

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

I don't think that "please" used in that way actually indicates a request. It's like a sign saying "please stay in crosswalk when crossing street." It's a politer way of citing a regulation.

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

We're going to have to disagree again. You keep looking for dark intent that just flat isn'there.

But again: feel free to recommend an alternative statement. I see more nonproductive complaints than suggestions.

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

Same here. I have the US version. It has a huge disclaimer (much bigger than the one shown in that photo) in English, Spanish and French, and most of it is about how the device needs a data connection to operate, but nothing about Ovi or SMS.

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

Also when I flashed my firmware I don't remember anything asking/telling me about this feature. I just noticed in in the Settings app and tried to opt out. It said that the opt-out failed, but I've never received an SMS from MyNokia, so who knows. Maybe it never signed me up in the first place.

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

IIRC, people in the US are lucky enough to not be autosubscribed to this.

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

Ok, even if new boxes got proper disclaimer with this information. I can't find relationship between Mobile Computer (Device) And Ovi service that is clearly ONLY part of the OS. From my understanding this SMS refer to the OVI service not to the device or OS. OR did I mess something up? Do I have to use OVI if I don't want to? Apart of ridiculous situation that even if I want to I can't?

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

btw, did anyone ever receive an SMS from nokia using this service? i know when i upgraded to PR 1.2, it subscribed by default. i then chose to unsubscribe to it immediately.

about 2 weeks ago, i got one SMS from it about sygic's navigation software for the n900. the SMS had a country code somewhere in Europe (i think it was +45 or +44 which is either denmark or UK).

so the next question is: i already unsubscribed to it (did it twice). why am i still receiving SMSes?? i have itemized billing. even though the TO number didn't show up, i did get charged for an international SMS when i unsubscribed.

Nokia's response is just bs. This heavy handed approach to forcing things down without giving users a choice is just plain wrong. Why are they still doing things wrong when they are in a market where they are losing market share? sigh....

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

I find it especially troubling that Nokia took extra effort to:
1). Not show the sms sending activity to the user
2). Make it very2 persistent in retrying the process if it fails

Since N900 is one of the first (if not the first?) mass marketed true Linux handset.. this does not bode well for:
1). OSS/Linux image to the general public
2). Nokia's relationship with the OSS community

Oh, and the latest 'push technology' used in Maemo:
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=732120
(still technically unconfirmed, may be related with the bug reported by tomaszd and others about randomly (?) installed apps when removing packages).

I don't expect Nokia to answer point by point to all of the complaints, but they should understand the seriousness of this issue to their OSS supporters/users in general.

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

Just catching up with the whole thing. Wow. What would be simpler than a "bad UI, sorry, we'll get it right next time" response, and instead we get this?

Leaving legalities aside (IANAL), the message seems clear: if you don't want unexpected charges and/or "phoning home" with your personal data, don't buy an "Ovi device". Fair enough, I can live with that (and obviously Nokia/Ovi think they can too so I don't expect a change in attitude).

So, what do people who want a Linux handheld computer completely under the owner's control buy these days?

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

Shame Openmoko died. At least they were really truly about Open Source, instead of this ******** Nokia puts out.

Really, for me at least, the reasons for Nokia's being better than Google are decreasing.

Alas, I'm going OT here. I'd be happy to talk in the missteps thread, however. I promise not to swear :)

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

Ah... a mobile computer... internet device... not a cell phone. Because of that you have to register to the for your device useless OVI. (it was also useless for my symbian device before - colurful, but without benefit)

So, when this is a mobile computer, why does it register and inform the people about "updates" using SMS?

Why not send data direct to a server, using GPRS, W-LAN, UMTS. Why using a Series40 technology? Why have we to pay so much for only 160bytes?

Who is working there? The 70 years old grandmother of my neighbor? Have they understand how their devices are working or do they think we are still just stupid custumers... bought a Nokia satellite receiver and suprised that we could not drive to work with it? :mad:

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

The message is on my box too. OK, so what Nokia did is probably legal. But it's not the right thing to do.

Nor is it good business practise for Nokia. It's just alienating their user base more and more.

Furthermore, the message is deceptively included in a paragraph that's labelled as a copyright notice.

Clearly, none of us had seen and understood that notice before now, or else we would have raised it in this forum.

How can something so hidden ever be morally right? And how can Nokia's PR people think their customers will be satisfied with a response that basically says "we're not breaking any laws, so you're stiffed"?

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

Hear, hear. It looks like neither Nokia nor Google care about data protection, which was my biggest problem with Android. So I may as well switch to the platform with the higher probability of having a non-zero number of users this time next year! I am currently wading through specifications of Android devices, and once I have found a suitable replacement, it will be goodbye N900. It's a shame, because the idea of the N900 was very appealing, but I am far too tired of these continual missteps by Nokia. I should have learned my lesson with the lack of support for the 770, but this time I suspect I am jumping ship for good.

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

Ok, I asked earlier what would have been the right thing to say, from Nokia's perspective, to satisfy folks.

Allow me to ask a different question - the last one did get answered fully, but I'm still curious.

What would be the true solution to this issue? Nokia reimburse everybody for the charges where there were some and increase the visibility of this option or create an all web based solution for login? Or... handle it via the Ovi desktop app perhaps instead of SMS?

Just curious.

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

Might want try to install Android on the N900. The device itself is great, so it would be a waste to not use it.

By now I'm starting to waver myself. I love Maemo, but learning that reflashing my device will force me to pay for "registration" once again was a bit of a shock.

Yes, both Google and Nokia don't seem to care much for my privacy, but right now we have the choice between "Doesn't care for my privacy, but at least tries to appeal to me" and "Doesn't care for my privacy and feels obliged to **** with me on a daily base".

Nokia's clearly loosing this race, but just like they didn't care that they lost a whole bunch of their customers when they decided to close half of their Central European branches in order to move them to low-wage countries, they don't care about the current fiasco, either.

Instead they feel it's the right thing to do to give us this "screw you, we'll continue to mess with you" reply.

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

I don't care for the 2$ this cost me, and I'm sure neither do the rest of the people (for whom this was most probably just a couple of cents, anyway). So I don't think anybody would request a refund.

Good start.

Even better!

Not sure what you're referring to, but as long as it doesn't force me to send messages I have to pay money despite there being loads of free ways to do this instead...

Of course, the best thing to do would be to just make this whole thing optional. What good did it do, anyway? All I got so far a message that PR1.2 is finally out (three weeks after PR1.2 actually was released) with a link that was not working.

Oh, and of course access to the Ovi store - that doesn't work, anyway. ;)

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

Agreed. Nokia are currently not quite as evil as Google, but Nokia seem to be going out of their way to alienate their remaining customers. So I would rather switch to a platform with a viable userbase and be careful about what data I store on my phone.

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

Which is what most people were asking for on bugzilla. I don't care about a refund, but an apology and an opt-out are the least that I would have expected.

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

I would like either the initial splash screen to never appear, or if it must appear, to have a "no thanks" button so that an SMS is never sent. Unsubscribing via the My Nokia applet in Settings after the event is not good enough, in my opinion.

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

That effectively means "Don't buy Nokia", since everything is now under the very weird, Finnish concept.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia Ovi

Yeah. The way in when you're out and the way out when you're in. I'd say that's an apt name. Every time you get a device, they show you the OVI.

ETA:

"Oops. Will be default-off in PR 1.3"

Closed: Fixed in 5.0+

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

I can't make up my mind whether I'm exceptionally stupid, the people at Nokia are exceptionally stupid, or they people at Nokia think the rest of us are exceptionally stupid.

With the whole Maemo/meego enterprise, engaging the Open Source Community, building on goodwill, green business and ethical practices Nokia seem to be going out of their way to present themselves as the Good Guys of handhelds (whether phones, tablets whatever). And they seem to be putting quite a bit of effort into it.
http://www.businessgreen.com/busines...top-spot-green

http://conversations.nokia.com/2010/...witcher=mobile

http://ncomprod.nokia.com/corporate-...uct/highethics

To list but a few

And then this business fo data and un-turnoffable sms comes along completely knocking that idea sideways.

Are Nokia people so dim they don't see why this might be a problem for the ethical, open source fanbase they've attracted to maemo?

Are Nokia people so blind they think the maemo fanbase is so dim we won't notice?

I feel very confused. Are Nokia good guys or not? I don't know any more.

Small thought: in searching for links, I came across the Nokia Code of Conduct for business which talks about going beyond the point of mere law in their ethical approach. It also encouraged employees to report violations of the code - though no mention is made of whether the public might do so. Is that area wirth persuing?


Editing again now I've had chance to skim the code:

I'd say there's a violation of "fair and reasonable choices on its collection and use" wouldn't you?

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

Don't eat. Don't give to children. Don't short. Warning. Disclaimer. Don't try to jam up the.

Yep, it's the US box alright.

Well, depends on who you ask. People like Texrat, probably, will root for them as they were the good guys. Others say they're the Devil incarnate.

Me, I'm less than shocked. Appalled, but ...

Look, Nokia has never been the Good guys. As long as I bought their phones (8110 means about 1996, but not quite then), they had the good and the bad. Always been the visionaries. Uniform UI, good tech support (by good I mean you give them the phone and money and they fix it, no flops), the best phones available and pricing to match. OTOH, they aren't known for generosity, communication with customers, involvement, well, anything that makes anyone Good. (I'm not talking about free stuff)

In my experience, Nokia is yet to finish a platform or device. None of the phones I had ever had their bugs fixed, and I don't mean N900 that features millions of lines in an OS. No, what I mean is they never fixed them back when it had 2K of flash memory.

Not even when flashing was normal, never more than one flash or so per device, always addressing stuff they thought was bad. Basically showstoppers and a few features. On to the next device.

I feel like the whole Nokia policy is a train. Steam everywhere, speed, people Wooo!-ing, glitter until you buy a device. Then you're off the train, in the middle of the field, alone. Train is already 50 kilometers *that way* and it ain't coming back for you and your device buddy. But fork over some cash and you're back on board, hunting for that next device they always release.

Nokia takes this corporate hocus-pocus to the extreme. All big companies have rules and regulations, but they do it best, second maybe to Apple.

Larger companies have better relations and are less secretive. Even the perceived monsters have forums they listen to, channels where developers blog/tweet/discuss project progress, post blunders, relax. Help forums where you can actually get a hold of a person that actually writes the code and provides you with insight.

Not Nokia. Cold, distant, silent, monolithic, separated, unhelpful, single minded, stubborn, to name a few.

I've been through years of management, marketing, corporate grit, and I know exactly what school of thought the guy making these decisions comes from. Image, people. Everything is image. A projection screen, glitter, fireworks, push, free devices to encourage developers, until people buy it. Behind the screen, users are unheard, unheeded, abandoned. Developers lack documentation, rendering them unable to write the stuff they were brought over to write. But by them the train and it's TV ads and cool adverts and campaigning is already on its way to the next station, in Meego, Massachusetts.

I know people like them. I know some have made contact and probably have warm fuzzy feelings from the Push or whatnot. In fact, it's a safe bet someone will stand up for them right here, right now.

And to you, dear supporter, I say this: You probably are more than a customer. Maybe a developer. Maybe a member of some council, some board, some initiative. Definitely not a "simple" customer.

Is the above Bad? No, after all, no kicking of my dog ever took place. Good? Definitely no.

How about Cold Gray? Is that on the scale?

SMS subscription be damned.

The most important data gathered from this baby is the number of N900 out there that have an active data plan. Subtract from sold, get a percentage of people that use it as phone versus internet tablet.

How many on which networks, meaning the next negotiation of branded Nokia phones with Vodafone is going to be a lot more interesting.

IMEI and Network ID means they know hoe many devices migrated, how many were bought and when (IMEI is associated with shipped lots), and get a sale graph, activation graph. How many were Christmas gifts. How many were exported. How sales varied.

Subscribe to news my foot.

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

Sadly, no. The whole "Code" is wishy-washy enough to tolerate anything up to manslaughter, as long as there's even a tiny hint of them doing it to "support" their customers.

Okay, everybody who knows how deep my loath for Apple goes might be shocked by this, but still:

By now I'm not sure Nokia's still behind Apple on that account. At least Apple tries to score every single one of their poor business decisions as a feature in disguise (thus trying to keep their customers happy). Nokia on the other hand doesn't seem to care that they're constantly alienating their customers. Yes, I have to admit, I'm still rather shocked at that reply to the issue at hand.

"Here, take that. Don't like it? Take your whining elsewhere. Oh, btw, there's a new device coming out soon - why don't you pay us again to get that one instead?"

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

I haven't followed Nokia too closely over the years, other than their "very mainstream" offerings; but it seems to me that passage in bold up there pretty much sums up their sole strategy for the past decade (and beyond?).

Their attempts to branch out (N-Gage, Ovi Store, booklet, naviteq maps) has generated lukewarm (at best) market response thus far.

I have a feeling that they've yet to really commit themselves to any of the 'new strategies' and internally they keep going back to the sole gameplan that has worked for them all this year. I'm afraid it's not good enough for 2010.

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

Also, if I may, it's not very open-source. It's clearly intended to fly under the radar. That's a shocking stab in the back at the fundamental paradigm that the community is based on, an abuse of the spirit by which the source code for Linux and much of the code is provided openly to Nokia and everyone that wants to use it, and finally a direct stab in the back of individuals and users who trusted the closed portions of code Nokia provided. This last item further bolsters the argument for COMPLETELY opening up the firmware. For an open-source device, this platform has NO standing for looking down on closed-source or even other partially-open devices like Android.

Nokia should feel shameful for this hypocrisy. While one side of their face speaks about how active they are in open-source, the other side of their corporate face tells you that they will MAINTAIN having closed-source portions, continue to build devices with components that aren't open-source friendly and continue to express seemingly passive-aggressive levels of support and communications to customers.

Repulsive and disgraceful. Shame.

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

What Nokia did was ugly. In my particular case, I did the update OTA but never got a SMS and was not auto-registered, though I can't explain why not. Supposedly, I should've been and that ticks me off. Even so, what Nokia did with the PR 1.2 upgrade was nothing compared to what Google does. And things are really bad for some people - for example:

http://www.addictivetips.com/mobile/...a-ota-updates/

So, while any fantasies we may have had of Nokia being a totally benevolent corporate entity are now forever tarnished, the PR 1.2 auto-registration scandal is small potaotes, relatively speaking.

But I'm still pissed...

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

I just want to stress this point out. This is the exact reason why they wanted a SMS and not any other way of subscription; and why you can't opt out of it .

If they are really, really interested, they could even ask the carriers the name and contact information of the people paying the bill.

There is no billing system as precise, complete and merciless in the world than a carrier telecom one.

Do Nokia really, really want bad publicity this much? It's not like the press and blogs are ready and willing to give them a free pass for this kind of things.

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

I guess most people are aware of this already, but MyNokia is something that is not only Meego-specific but rather appears also in Symbian devices. In multiple forms, but still. So you can probably guess that any decisions Nokia makes on it do not originate from purely 100% Meego perspective.

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

Furthermore, there are obvious regional differences. My US retail N900 did NOT even try to register (and the US box, as pointed out already, does NOT mention registration/Ovi). Did not show any T&C on upgrade/reboot and did not send an SMS. Whether this is due to IMEI/SIM mismatch, unsupported country, some of the installed software interfering or simply a malfunction of the registration software, I don't know.

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

Heh - I just got an SMS saying that registration failed, so I shrugged and ignored it. Not checked whether I've been billed extra or not though.

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

Sure. - But then: It's bad enough to do it on Symbian phones. It's not OK, not on Symbian, not on Maemo and not on MeeGo (or S40, but I think S40 won't do it anyway.)

What's odd, though, is that nobody at Nokia seems to realize how different target groups may react differently. That nobody seems to see how much this auto-registration contradicts the whole purpose of Maemo as an open system. I choose my words carefully here: I write "seems to ..." because, of course, I can't know what's being done or discussed behind the scenes. But you see, that is part of the problem:

Somebody could leave suit&tie at home for once, enter the forum in shorts, flip-flops and a t-shirt and then explain "Well, yes, we see the point. We're discussing it internally and personally, I'd want to get rid of this sms-thing in the future. Others inside Nokia want to keep it, though, so this will take some time and we're not sure if we can do it at all. I'll keep you updated."

Instead, we get this meaningless sequence of words, probably put together by a group of lawyers and marketing people who probably don't even own flip-flops.

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

Bought my N900 in HK just over 2 weeks ago. Shortly after getting it and once connected to the internet it said there were some updates (Maemo 5) available. I did the update, rebooted got the T & C notice for OVI, and a single button "DONE" and I was suckered into subscribing to MyNokia without my knowledge and permission. Luckily I was using a throwaway sim in the N900 at the time. Anyway, yesterday I received an SMS from Nokia saying

Needless to say I am ignoring it. However if someone has tried the survey and knows that you get to speak to a human at the other end then maybe I'll try it and give them a piece of my mind.

It does say on the box that "This is an Ovi service device. Registration via SMS required.", however it is in small print and on the back of the box and I doubt very many people will get to read it. I didn't even read the text on the back of the box until just now, and what caught my eye was a notice saying the FM transmitter is only enabled in certain countries and I missed the bit about OVI on my first reading. It was only when I read it again to confirm that there was no mention of OVI that I saw it :rolleyes:

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

I couldn't agree more. I am seriously considering my position in the Maemo and MeeGo community because I do not want to contribute to software and devices which will be used to abuse privacy and steal personal information. I have suspended the work I was doing to port MUD and GPE to MeeGo (and submitting bugs and patches to the MeeGo tools) while I think about this further.

I realise that Nokia employees cannot afford to make public statements which may contradict company policy. I will say that Quim seems to have done what he can to escalate the issue internally, including arranging a call for me with one of the Nokia lawyers to discuss the accusations I have made that this violates the UK Computer Misuse Act (which carries serious criminal penalties). Of course the lawyer could not admit any wrongdoing but I was given the opportunity to make my point, forcefully. The lawyer did confirm that they are relying on the text on the box to claim that the user has "authorised" the registration.

I am still hoping that Nokia will see their mistake, apologise, fix the PR1.2 problem and make a public commitment to the community that no Nokia Maemo or MeeGo device will ever again collect personal information without allowing the user to opt-out (with no impact on features). But it is just a hope -- I have not seen any evidence that this will happen unless there is either a major PR impact or a major legal impact first.

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

We know it is not Meego specific - there is no Meego on N900, but there is MyNokia crap.

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

NOKIA was never worried about bad PR in their maemo/meego decisions...

...I have no other explanation for such hard missteps we have seen the last 6 months. :confused:

Re: [Council] Nokia response to MyNokia subscription in PR1.2
 

Yes, i agree.

But for me, the proof is in how they did NOT handle the missteps.

I can tolerate companies making mistakes if they apologize and make good of their initial promise. Heck, I'm rooting for the OSS flag bearer here so I'm being extra generous and extra forgiving. They just need to say something right.