Re: no drm means no good apps?
 

https://publish.ovi.com/register/cou...d_account_type
But there is still that 50€ registering fee.

Re: no drm means no good apps?
 

I don't remember anybody talking about how commercial soft- or hardware were a bad thing. Juise- was just replying to the non-sense capitalism fanboy statement that nobody in their right mind would ever do anything good for free.

No, the warm, fuzzy feeling when you know that something you did helped other people does not feed me (working for a company does). But the insolent assumption that what I write in my spare time just has to be crap, because if it was any good I wouldn't give it away for free, makes me want to throw up.

I haven't spend THAT much time so far coding for this community, but there are others out there who spent dozens of hours to develop highly useful (and by now pretty much bug-free) applications because of prestige, the fun that comes with creating something useful and/or *gasp* simply out of generosity. Calling them idiots for doing something that "does not feed them" and belittling their work as half-finished, low-quality junk is more than just a slap into their faces.

By the way... we're still waiting for those ominous two applications that he's missing. Unless he comes out with what he's looking for, I call that an empty claim.

Re: no drm means no good apps?
 

In all fairness, you have to pay Apple a yearly fee for the right to publish anything, too. AND you have to buy one of their overpriced desktops beforehand... :D

Right now the real big difference between AppStore and OVI is the fact that OVI doesn't work half of the time.

Re: no drm means no good apps?
 

Which is exactly why I do have a "real" job.

And I'm not trying to disregard paid software in any way. For bigger tasks, some kind of paid model is often necessary to get the work done.

My points above are mostly from the viewpoint of a solo developer doing small pieces of software (e.g. a couple of weeks worth of work), and trying to make a point that there are some cases where just giving that piece of software away for free makes more sense than trying to sell it.

At least my post doesn't make it become ethical, all my listed reasons are either self-beneficial or neutral. Not single one of them suggests that getting paid for work is somehow evil.

Re: no drm means no good apps?
 

did u get ur n900 for free?

i agree with the guy, ovi store is a big fail..
not coz it lacks apps
its coz there arent many apps..
how many apps do u actually see?
i mean, if ovi aint workin, ppl gotta distribute their app somehow
perhaps on their site?
who are those ppl?
a company for bounce and angry bitds
offsets
then docs to go company
secret exit *zen bound*
i think tahts pretty much all of it?
how many more can u add?
make 10 companies?
still hell of alot less then s60
paid and free apps, they started coming out in the very next 1 or 2 months after the release of 5800..
i'm not asking u to sell ur apps
u're not a company
ofcourse its a hard job for jus one man

why do a job?
lets all sit at home
ppl get us food but why do we have to pay?
arent they a community too?
lets all call em "open source" and not earn a ****
everything is free
but the thing is..
this is the real life
ppl will strip and make porn for money
u go to a village, ppl are dying out of hunger
they care about that money

another thing is, this argument isnt about money *yet again*
its about efficiency and variety of the apps

all here are accusations, nothing genuine
i'm sure ure all doing hard.. making apps
and i gladly appreciate that
but this is not relevant nor this was an offence
it was a simple question to share ur thoughts about drm
geez!
this is the 3rd time im repeating the same thing
:|

Re: no drm means no good apps?
 

It takes about a week of waiting and visits in three different government organizations filling a few forms each. And cost is about 100 euro.
But the more problematic is that you need to account differently. Instead of one form per year it's two forms per month. And health and retirement insurance is payed differently. About 150% the amount you pay being hired. And you need to pay it no matter whether you're making profit or not.

So, I'm glad it's piece of cake for you. But it's not so simple in other countries.

Re: no drm means no good apps?
 

Haven't you notice that the thread is about apps?

Re: no drm means no good apps?
 

Looks like they finally noticed. :)
When I was registering for Ovi Store, there was no Personal option.

Re: no drm means no good apps?
 

In capitalism, zero or negative prices for single items are perfectly valid. It's just not called sales, but an investment.

Look at the subsidised phones given away for free with mobile subscriptions for an example.

It's the bottom line that counts.

Re: no drm means no good apps?
 

Read your first post please.

It seems like you think all the apps and games in the repositories are cr*p.

If you had asked a simple and polite question, users would have answered politely. Next time try this:

"Is the lack of professionally developed apps and games due to the lack of DRM on the N900? What do you guys think?"

Re: no drm means no good apps?
 

To be called an 'investment' there's gotta be a guarantee or some sort of legal binding between your spending and what you expect to get out of it.

IE: when the 'free' phone is given out the customer signs a legal contract to legally bind them to pay the company a certain amount of fee for a certain period of time.

Re: no drm means no good apps?
 

Haven't you noticed you were wrong about "no DRM on Windows". That's the start.

They have DRM for apps, DRM for music, DRM for widgets, DRM for apps that you buy via their Zune and Windows Media marketplace, DRM for podcasts, DRM for drivers on Windows.

Which part of that are you overlooking? You picked a wrong example, I linked you to parts that correct your mistake; if you wish to remain oblivious that I'm talking about DRM as an entirety - there's a DRM layer in Windows - then have at it.

I'm quite sure you'd see I was also talking about apps and much more.

Re: no drm means no good apps?
 

Nope.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investment

Edit:

Ok, I did misread your post. I was led astray by the 'guarantee' part.

Re: no drm means no good apps?
 

This part I'm interested in.
Could you give me some pointers, because I would like to implement DRM in my Windows apps? Particulary prohibit installation on non approved workstations.

Re: no drm means no good apps?
 

The part that you quoted was not the definition of 'investment' and I did not imply that investments are risk free. Here is the definition from wikipedia that you referenced:

I agree that 'conceptually' some marketing costs can be seen as 'investment', but they technically are marketing expenses.

Re: no drm means no good apps?
 

Zune DRM? .NET DRM? Silverlight DRM? Windows Media DRM?

Which one? You're being awful vague. Just to settle your curiosity, we just had to create a Silverlight based kiosk, thus .NET and we had to do research into their Offline DRM. It meant that it wouldn't fail if our app couldn't get online.

The DRM was for the embedded videos, the actual install of the app - wouldn't install if it did not have access to licensing server - think certificate authority - and despite having the ability to synchronize from a central server, at times, we had to compensate for occasional downtime, so we use the aforesaid offline DRM.

Do the research. We had to. It's there. And if you're unwilling, that's on you.

Zune, Media Play for Sure, even signed apps for the Vista/Win 7 Widgets have a DRM routine. Third party apps and frameworks exist for that too - Active(something) was another route to do so... but it was cost prohibitive and we couldn't use their servers to manage installs from what I remember.

That's a start... enjoy the research.

Re: no drm means no good apps?
 

Oh... "I know, but I won't tell."

LOL. It's always so fun talking to children. :D

Re: no drm means no good apps?
 

One could really argue whether everything else (giving away something for free without any directly obvious advantage) would maybe be labelled as PR, instead.

But the bottom line is, even in the commercial world there's instalments of free giveaways, even if those are most probably not just made to get a fuzzy feeling... :D

And I can't seem to find the proposed lack in efficiency and variety with such free investments/PR items as for example Acrobat Reader, Cisco VPN client or the various free-for-personal-use software packages - each of which have the ulterior motive of luring in paying customers, but are free, nonetheless.

Re: no drm means no good apps?
 

Wow, you're quite childish. I've asked you 5 different scenarios and instead of showing which one, repeatedly you're curious about, you've taken this rather troll-ish behavior of answering none.

How about this. Answer, in one sentence what do you want? And I will point you in the right direction. You want a .NET app? A Zune app? XBOX Live App? What do you want? You've still not answered, so yeah... do your own research. Want me to point you directly to it, you'd have to answer. I don't read minds.

Hell, I even gave you an example of how I had used it, used terms that helped me solve my problem. What else do you want?

Now. Answer my question, and I will answer yours. It's that simple.

Re: no drm means no good apps?
 

i'll keep that in mind

Re: no drm means no good apps?
 

Any webpage or app that has commercial advertisement in it is not free.

Re: no drm means no good apps?
 

DRM is an antiquated model. If your software is properly developed you can make money from it with or without DRM. People are ALWAYS going to pirate software regardless of the security model, all DRM does is make life more inconvenient for the the paying customers.

Re: no drm means no good apps?
 

Heh... technically it is free, because you're not paying them a cent; the developer gets money from being the middleman that passes those ads to you.

Same with those 'free app' that provides you 'free online services'.. like google map, or searches.. etc. They're technically free, but you're giving them data points from your usage.... which in the bigger scheme of things, they can profit from.

Re: no drm means no good apps?
 

@ fahadj2003 no need to press enter after every sentence, nor do you need to quote an entire post when replying to one part of it. That last post didn't even fit on my 20" screen :eek:

Re: no drm means no good apps?
 

Bah, I have no more time to waste, have clients to work with today.

Want to sign your application, use GuardIT. It is a method that will allow for distribution of client apps - the kind I described earlier. It will act more-or-less like a certificate authority (CA) where you have a centralized server and it says it can/cannot run. Think of it as an extended license server. GuardIT is a library for .NET.

If you happen to use Silverlight, you can use their internal DRM to not only protect the media, but also for the app itself. It's the second part that's confusing. The use of audio/video is covered, but to deploy it to where the app is limited/restricted is based on licensing and you have to write a routine. If you have a MSDN account, you can find some Silverlight 4 routines for such a thing. I piggy-backed the existing app discussions to figure this and offline DRM out.

If you're talking about distributing an app has to obtain DRM keys, then you'd something like using the WMStubDRM.lib, which is a direct link to the Windows Media player DRM. This protects only the content, not your app.

If you're talking about Zune or XBOX apps, I personally don't know enough, but have resources. That's a true weakness of my skillset - at least I'm honest.

And there are other methods to signing, restricting, and protecting your app - some tap into the Windows Vista/Windows 7 DRM layer, some use external sources - like Verisign of SealedMedia among other routines.

It truly matters on what you want to protect and what you're after. You've specified as of yet, none of the above, I can't read your flippant mind, so above will start you off properly.

Sadly enough, I can't do it all for you. And no, dear child... it's not about about what I will and will not tell you; you just have not provided enough information for anybody to answer any of your vague questions.

Troll away. I was trying to answer; I'll do it no more.

Re: no drm means no good apps?
 

GuardIt, like DRM is useless. They will still find a way to crack it. Just like no amount of protection will ever stop hackers. It is a continous war.

Android, Symbian, Maemo, Windows, Mac, Linux and everything else all have cracked apps. DRM didn't change a thing.

And a good example are crackers. To all of you that ask why would someone release his software for free? The same reason why crackers do not charge a cent.

DRM will not stop piracy. It will only delay it.

Re: no drm means no good apps?
 

Not even that. Cracks tend to be released a day or two before the DRM they are meant to bypass are officially started. Leaking DRM information is one rather viable source of income, and I dare say there's not a single DRM manufacturer out there that doesn't have at least one or two traitors on their payroll.

Sadly, and I'd say that's the main issue of the whole "No built-in DRM", companies still don't get that DRM is worth nothing and they could make more money by providing customers with non-DRM-messed, high-quality products.

So, yes, I think it makes a difference whether a platform offers DRM or not. But not because DRM protects anybody, but simply because only few software companies have realised yet that they are shooting their own feet with DRM.

Re: no drm means no good apps?
 

I think you're both getting there... fast.

I think it's pretty clear what he's asking for. He wants to know what DRM system exists to protect a common, everyday app one would develop for a Windows based system. Like Office, or a data inventory program, or a mail reader, or a game. Not something that's going to run in a browser, or a media player, or on a Zune. (A Zune? Really? Why are you even talking about Zunes?)

The real answer is that MS does not provide ANY out of the box DRM for installable native applications, which frankly is the point he's making. Windows doesn't have a DRM model setup and in place that prevents you from installing and/or copying apps. If you get the MSI for an app, you can install it. There's no way, built into the system, to prevent someone from getting said MSI file and/or from installing it on a non-authorised device.

There are plenty of cheep 3rd party solutions to do this, and yes, you can develop your own. There are crytpo/security APIs in .NET and lots of other MS provided libraries to help you, but there's nothing fully implemented. This is part of why piracy is rampant when it comes to apps for Microsoft based devices.

So the argument being presented is as such:
If Microsoft doesn't provide DRM on their system (by default), and people still develop for it, then DRM is not a requirement for doing business.

I agree and disagree. It is indeed not required for every circumstance. There are in fact companies making software (for profit) for the N900. They're adding stuff to the OVI store every week, or hosting in their own repositories, using their own DRM system (like JoikuSpot). Plenty of people also make money via "free" software. RedHat is a key example: Develop the software for free, provide support at a cost.

But there are other factors that make DRM important. The smaller your install base, the more incentive you need to provide that the effort will pay off. If you develop an app for Windows, the install base is so huge that even if 80% of the users are "pirates", the 20% that pay are going to probably cover your R&D costs. On a system with under a million installs, that may not be the case.

Both sides are right. You don't need DRM to have good apps. But having DRM may attract more developers on a smaller install base.

Personally, I think the community here is strong enough that if you put out a decent bit of software for a reasonable price, you'll have people buying it up vs pirating it. The built-in DRM that OVI has now is strong enough to make it not worth hacking the system for a $5 app. (Angry Birds and Zen Bound showed this quite well...) DRM is about making it more trouble than it's worth to pirate... I think they've hit the mark at this point, and we'll see a slow trickle of things coming in soon.

In the mean time, the free software that's out there already is really a lot better than what many devices have in their existing for-pay app stores. If your concept of "good apps" == race car games, fart boxes, and playboy strip poker, then no, this is not your device. If your idea of a good app is one that lets you do something useful (like manage your finances, or remotely monitor your home), you'll find what you need here.

Re: no drm means no good apps?
 

GuardIT's already been "hacked". As will, inevitably, any and all DRM measures. Some are downright simple.

Apple's Fairplay. Remember it? Want to get around it? Burn the music to a CD, via iTunes, rip to mp3... enjoy DRM-less music. Want to get around FlexNET? Extract your machine's ID, insert manually into a *.lic file, place in the right place.

Want to avoid using Protexis or the services therein? You just have to relocate the PSIKey.dll and you're able to run it without those intrusive services that already run on top Windows.

Simply put, I agree. DRM isn't the answer. It treats the buying consumer like a criminal and doesn't stop the criminals from using it anyway.

With that said, no DRM offered on a platform - whether they use it or not - means little to no 3rd party applications on that platform unless that platform entices folks with... well, money. Skype, Gizmo were there because they were paid for the most part.

Re: no drm means no good apps?
 

Because it has a marketplace analogous to iTunes Music Store. That's why.

That's why I asked the question and never got an answer. If you're talking about just deploying DRM protected content within an application versus utilizing DRM in protecting an application; the words to craft those sentences are hugely different and normal people with the ability to talk to more than a 5th grader level can do just that. Hasn't happened yet.

DRM content? Use WMStubDRM.lib or wmvcore.lib. They're built-in to the system. If you were to completely follow the Zune marketplace analogy, once you submit, they (being Microsoft) applies their DRM methodology to the submitted application. If you're talking about your own *.exe or *.msi that you've developed... then you will invariably have to use a third party method to protect your app.

It's the same for any *.dmg on the Mac. It's the same for any other non-Linux OS. Protecting the actual file from being installed when a person has actual access to it will never happen. Once installed, then the protection schemes start - licensing, registration, et al. Please show me where this is different outside of marketplace type of apps.

See above. It matters - mp3, mp4, avi, wmv - it's built-in. If you mean *.exe, *.msi, it's up to the developer... always has. But you do have access to a DRM layer that's there - it can hook into it if needs be.

I think you people are ignoring the fact that once something is submitted to the Windows Media Marketplace (Windows Mediaplace/Play For Sure) or the Zune Marketplace, or even the XBOX Live Marketplace, the DRM is placed on by the company just like they would for the iTunes Music Store or even Ovi Store for that matter (for approved companies). Only apps in the repositories are not covered as such.

I don't personally think so if you're looking for it to be a mainstream product. And apparently neither does Nokia/Intel. MeeGo will have DRM.

Angry Birds and Zen Bound are only installable, purchasable via the Ovi Store. They don't have DRM, but they have to have had a way to be distributed and that was via the Ovi Store. And to my knowledge - I could be wrong - it ties into your IMEI number and thus is only installable only by that person that purchased it.

That's DRM-ish in their deployment. It's pretty darn similar to how we used to create a machine based GUID during my VB6 days and insert that into the registry and the app would or would not run that way. We could never stop folks from downloading or sharing the app, but if you didn't have the proper keyword to GUID combo, it wouldn't run, circa 1999.

And there are corporate apps that aren't easily duplicated. There's not one app that duplicates all of Skype's functionality - ok, that's a bad choice, it's using a lot of closed sources, services and protocols - so... let's say games. I don't mean Tux Race, nor Bounce. I mean, there's no Need For Speed. Not that it's needed, but darn it would be nice to have something recognizable on the device instead of knock-offs and approximations for the mainstream user.

It's not about who's device it's for... you have to see outside of the typical egocentric tendencies and see who got left out. The Linux Desktop market share represents mainly who would have bought this device.

Nokia will need more than that to call this a mainstream device. And the necessary evil that goes with it... DRM is in tow unfortunately.

Re: no drm means no good apps?
 

Nobody is talking about media content. The OP (and everyone else here) is talking about DRM for application distribution. You're the only one bringing up media.

I read well above a 5th grader level and was able to figure out pretty easily that this entire discussion thread is about using DRM to protect application deployment. The comparisons being made are to a marketplace driven app store (like iPhone or Android), not a media download service (like iTunes or Zune).

You are in violent agreement with each other. The OP is saying we need a marketplace type DRM in place. Another party argued that that particular type of DRM is not needed, citing lots of non-marketplace devices that lack it and still have content developed for them. You're saying the same thing...

In any case, it's not the best argument for the reasons I stated before, volume being the key item. The N900 install base is much smaller than systems that are surviving without a marketplace like system.

Again, I think DRM (for media, for apps, etc) may in fact be an aid in attracting people to a smaller market. But DRM is not needed to bring companies to a platform, there are factors that can outweigh the lack of it. In this specific case, a DRM app delivery system (like OVI) may help draw companies into making software for the device, but it's far from required. As noted there are third party methods for doing this on your own, with or without an OS based framework to build from.

Several business exist that explicitly do not use DRM in their model and are doing just fine. Amazon (and others now) sells raw MP3s these days, no DRM, yet they still do millions a day in MP3 downloads.

And Hitler would like DRM too!

There, it's been said. Can we close this thread now? :p

Re: no drm means no good apps?
 

Godwin's Law wins again!

Re: no drm means no good apps?
 

DRM or no DRM the only reason not many developers come for the N900 is because Nokia didn't push them. It's fairly obvious that the N900 was merely a transitional device.

Meego is the future. If Meego doesn't get apps, then you can consider Nokia as a failure. I don't think Nokia are too worried about the future of the N900.

It sucks, but it's true.

Re: no drm means no good apps?
 

Some very interesting graphs comparing the numbers between a bunch of app stores: Android, Apple (iPhone), Apple (iPad), Blackberry, Nokia, Palm, Windows.

Proportion of free vs paid:
http://jkontherun.files.wordpress.co...e-vs-paid2.png

Average prices:
http://jkontherun.files.wordpress.co...ge-prices2.png

Source: http://jkontherun.com/2010/07/02/and...ove-free-apps/

Re: no drm means no good apps?
 

Interesting, I will agree with that. But, it misses one crucial flaw, when looking at the ovi store(with regards to the n990 at least), which is the repos(and the maemo.org app page). Most of the free software will be distributed through there, and repo-package-counts aren't added to that graph.

I suspect that if those graphs included repo-distributed material, the percentage free would be much higher.

Just saying...

Re: no drm means no good apps?
 

agreed upon
those graphs refer to majority of phones.. ie s60

Re: no drm means no good apps?
 

The graphs explains why there's a huge increase in google's markets today. On an average it seems like google's price point per value seems to be more justified as compared to it's competitors. Personally I loved google maps more than any other navi application, and also I loved my n900. How I wish there's a perfect port of google maps apps on n900 itself, it'll be like cream on a piece of cake. Sweet !
:rolleyes:

Re: no drm means no good apps?
 

@whiteice: really? I didn't know that the % of free apps (and how diverse and of what quality are they) are advertised to potential buyers at all. Actualy, I don't think there's a way for general users to know the % at all, without manually counting them.. or buying datas from these consultants.