Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

And guess who makes the decisions and allocates the funds?

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

It seems you have a dislike for Nokia and I guess I must be one of their fanboys because in my opinion the divisions that have been making the mobile phones seems to be interested in creating devices that work really well.

I have been using Nokia mobiles for 12 years and have actually NEVER, EVER had one breakdown on me (no lie!). I similarly expect(ed) something similar with the N800. I am a bit of an evangelist when it comes to mobile tech with my friend circle, I try and keep up with all the latest phones devices etc. The N800 I am not freely advocating to everyone yet, only the tech savvy and patient, but I cannot think of a single device for the price/weight/size/power that can do as much.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

What attracted me somewhat is their original investment.

500 units to developers for $99 euros...

A lot must have taken the thing an ran... If list was $399 then each one saved $300 dollars and I thought for sure they would return the favor by providing back to the community $300 worth of code.

That's 500 x $300...

I haven't seen anywhere near $15,000 worth of free community code.

I paid list and I am a bit disappointed with it all.
Hell, even searches on Maemo org for snippets or just about anything brings up mostly 770 stuff with the caveat "this has not been tested on the N800".

Since January it seems that Tableteer, the source to "Keep up-to-date with your N800" has only been updated itself 3 or 4 times.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

I think emotions are running a little high in this thread!

Considering that they are developing a fresh platform, things could be worse. We're getting a reasonable amount of feedback, new features, and sexy hardware.

Assuming we get support and refinements to opera, rss, skype and e-mail for another year or two I will be comfortable with my purchase. At that time we'll either have a product we love, and purchase the new fangled n900 on the 'amazing' maemo platform... or we'll dump it for the new intel MID's.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Oh, I know very well who does what. ;)

I just took aim at your broad brush.

In general: trust me guys, I share your frustration. I just wish I could share a few things that I can't. But that fact alone should help a little... right?

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

No, we've had another poster in this forum who claimed to be "in the know", remember?

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

I consider myself an average user with both Linux and Windows experience. It's hard for me to understand the frustration and criticism I read over and over again, not only in this thread. I begin to wonder why I'm not dissatisfied with my Nokia 770. Why do I think the mail client is simple, but still useful? Why do I love surfing and dont complain about some missing plugins? Why do I enjoy watching my DVD collection on the 770 and dont complain about it not beeing able to deliver full resolution at 30Hz? Why wouldnt I ever expect the device to open *.doc attachments? Why am I content with a concept that offers little out of the box but a whole lot of 3rd party software?

I really dont know what makes me so different from other consumers. Maybe our inhouse advertising was better when I bought the 770 last year; it said quite clearly that I'd get a 800x480 touch screen for surfing and reading mails. Period. It was only afterwards that I discovered the endless possibilities of the device and was really, really pleasantly surprised. So it might be a matter of advertising after all.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Yeah, but he gave out supposed details that turned out to be nothing but fluff. I'm torturing you with intentionally vague references to alleged activity. Big difference. :p

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Texrat, just say this and we'll all be happy:

"Nokia is releasing a firmware update with 2D and 3D Acceleration enabled, flick scrolling has been implemented, a brand new email client developed from the ground up to be integrated with Skype and Google contact lists, directly accessible from the quick contacts applet, as well as Starcraft Maemo Edition and a new faceplate with Nintendo Gameboy style buttons for control. With the next firmware revision promising a licensed iTunes interface directly from the iPhone! "

Woot Go Nokia!

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

For what it's worth, the built-in email client is, if not integrated (as in 'synch both ways') with the google contacts list, at least it's able to import contacts. You'll have to set the contact to 'Always' in 'Show in Quick Contacts?' though (in the gmail web interface) to be sure to get it imported.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Oooohhhhh.... :cool:

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Heads up: I've alluded to it already but here's the full info. I'm flying to Finland for the first time this Friday to discuss my new promotion and I'll be there a week. I hope to finally meet face-to-face with a few people I've only corresponded with via email, and get an update on the N800.

I cannot guarantee I'll be able to post anything, but I will push to get any info at all that I can release. Of course, Skype and the new OS will be out that week, so I'm already scooped on that one... :p

Anyway, if I don't get to post much (been going nuts getting ready for this trip) I'll catch up when I can!

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Texrat - I would certainly be keen to discover what has happened to the promised official Nokia N800 Case!

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Lol... yeah, that is the big one, isn't it?

I'll try.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Try??? :confused:

No disrespect but; What was the point of this thread then?

BTW, the case is a BIG issue for me.

So is the $15,000.00 apparently waisted on giving away the device to the first 500 people who claimed to be developers. How about a list of names and their pledged involvement.

While you are at it how about the folks in the US who waited month(s) for an out of stock Navicore kit only to find out 2 days after it was released on Nokia's web site that Nokia's own distributor was selling it $40 cheaper.

Come on. $40 to drop ship the same device from the same warehouse, using the same methods... please.

I feel that I am looked at by Nokia as a cow teat that can be milked every time they decide to release something that their marketers had already promised.

Will we wait patiently for this case to be offered on Nokia's web site at a $30 price point only to discover it elsewhere for $15?

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Huh? Are you kidding? Get real. $300 is just few hours of programmer's time in some countries or very few days in others. You really can't do anything substantial in that time. Anything nontrivial and usable by mere mortals takes weeks of work at least. Fortunately most developers who got the discount are not in it for money so you get more than $300 worth of code (i.e. nothing) :-)


Sorry but that's quite stupid and untrue statement. Opinions can differ but I guess that without that investment the situation with available applications for Nokia tablets and size of developer community would be quite different. There are tons of cool gadgets on the market, much less developers would be interested in N770 or N800 without that discount. I think it was the best investment Nokia made for future of its Maemo platform.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

$300 is exactly 2 hours 35 min. of my time.. (I'm not one of those who received the discount though). I could probably write one or two short good Perl scripts in that time.. ;)

(If it wasn't clear from the above: I agree completely with fanoush on this.)

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

The thread was about more than undelivered cases, Yo.

I'm really not sure why you're lashing out at ME here, anyway. All I can do is try... I simply cannot nor will I guarantee anything. I would hope that you could appreciate my position. I will only pass along what I am approved to pass along. I will NOT divulge proprietary or otherwise guarded info, period. Would you prefer I instead brag and throw dates around that were provided by some unnamed third party?

Sheesh. Talk about shooting the messenger...

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Where than?

Claws, Maemo Mapper, Minimo, and Canola were developed for the 770 without this incentive. Even Ari's recent post about hacks is 770 based. I'm all for the incentive, in fact that is what attracted me to the device. In hindsight though Nokia's money would have been better spent giving a 100 away free to those who produced in the past.

What new, non-commercial apps have been developed for the N800? We all seem to be waiting on apps that would require a subscription fee anyway?

What about Bluetooth profiles, a telephony app, Hildonized apps that can parse office documents?

BTW, you are entitled to your opinion as I am. However, adding that opposing opinions are "stupid" and at the same time deflecting an answer to the original question of my post "What is the point of this thread?" doesn't help much.

I understand that this question could be taken as hostile but that was not my intention. I truly don't understand.

It seems to me that you can be either an advocate or not. Trying to advocate simple means you are not in fact an advocate.

The same goes for the term "Developer". You either "is" or you "ain't". Just judging by the membership roles to all Maemo forums and the actual output, a lot "ain't". It's either that or the device requires more from an average developer than they are willing to invest.

The $15 K number was just my attempt to quantify this deficiency. I don't know what information was required for the discount. If a description or synopsis of what was planned was included, perhaps Nokia could be more transparent and publish what was expected.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Okay, you completely misconstrued what I meant by the thread title. Perhaps that originates with me though; I could have certainly chosen a better title and for that I will apologize. However, I still feel like you are overreacting today. If you're going to bash anyone, I'd appreciate it if you'd aim that closer to those NOT trying to bridge the gap between Nokia and this community. Thanks.

FYI, the title was meant in a much broader sense than you interpreted. It wasn't just about development. It is about being a general advocate for the tablet platform and its potential. Perhaps "evangelist" would have been better, but that would have probably stirred up more of the "Nokia suckup" allegations I try to dispel. ;)

Even though my role has changed, I will still do everything in my power to promote the tablet to this community, and this community to Nokia. Odd, then, how I'm only catching fire from one side. Perhaps that is my fault. If so, it's easily rectified: I don't HAVE to do or say anything at all... and when I run out of 770 covers and N800 faceplates, we can call it done.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

In fact with N800 it was "Don't call us, we'll call you" and they decided based on previous work.

Not sure, search maemo garage. Many were ported though.
I was just commenting specific issue you brought up two times. Didn't read whole thread. You seem to expect quality apps for $300 worth of developer time. Also you perhaps think that $15000 is a lot of money for Nokia to spent. In my opinion the reality is vastly different so I couldn't think about any other word, sorry. Do you know how much Nokia may spent on 'useless' marketing campaigns? I guess much bigger sums go down the toilet with every such product release without us ever noticing.
I didn't take it as hostile either. Just as I already told. But indeed it is my opinion only. IMO the developer program was clever and quite inexpensive way how to get Maemo platform accepted in the market (i.e. create buzz at right places and get as much developers as possible) and it worked. Personally I think that without such program done in 2005 the platform would be dead or starving without anyone noticing and there would be no N800 at all. Now they have even Intel on board and future look promising.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Actually Texrat, I may have misconstrued your meaning in your previous "try" post. It indicated to me that you no longer were going to "advocate" but rather pick and chose items from a list and "try" to get answers to items that may have already been resolved.
If this was not the case, my mistake and not yours.

The distributors sale of a Nokia web site item for $40 less is a real concern. I would like to know if I should expect more of this from Nokia? I won't even bother with them in the future if this is so.

As far as the developer incentive goes it is my humble opinion that the $15 k may have been better spent by providing a written developers guide that anybody could use rather than expect output from 500 nameless individuals.
I received more useful information from the Tandy Corp when I bought my first copy of QDOS.

I also think there should be a better, company sponsored outlet for information on this device rather than having to rely on community based forums where members may threaten to take their ball home with them if they don't receive the props they think they deserve.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Ok, I can't for the life of me see where you acquired the interpretation of "try". It seems you read something between the lines and I am NOT a "hide crap between the lines" kind of person. True, sometimes my posts can be vague but that occurs as a direct result of policy which I absolutely will NOT violate. I already skirt the lines on occasion as it is.

Taking off the Nokia advocate hat and replacing it with my N800 enthusiast cap, I agree that the lack of a cover at this point is extremely frustrating. However, at the same time perpective prevents me from grading it as critically as you do. That's simply a result, however, of different strokes for different folks. I have different needs and a Nokia-provided cover falls VERY low on that list. I tend to look for third party solutions in that area anyway, so no biggie to me.

I won't argue either way on the developer program. I think the pros and cons are pretty even.

As for your last little slam, here's where you REALLY get me wrong. There wasn't near as much petulance in my post as there was frustration with the "shoot the messenger" approach you are taking. In addition, I can't work up 2 shits over "props", my friend. You have me completely confused with a certain wannabee forum "god" who places much more importance on forum accolades than service. If I was that sort of person, you wouldn't be benefitting from the shipment of covers and faceplates that I do out of my own goodwill and on my own precious time.

If you can't understand that, and insist on misconstruing my motives, then perhaps you'd be better off placing ME on ignore. I admit I'm a little snitty right now, but I really don't care for your own tone. I don't believe your allegations are warranted.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Paging Mr. Moderator! :D

Deep breaths everyone, deep breaths... come on chaps, lets just all get along! :)

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Thanks Mil.

I keep forgetting the number one law: "No good deed goes unpunished".

:p

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Did you check maemo.org site? There are heaps of documentation there. It is not a problem of documentation. Anyone who wants to develop for Maemo can do so. The biggest problem IMO is that the platform is young and immature. It took many years for Windows CE/Pocket PC/Windows Mobile to reach mature state and match PalmOS. I still remeber times when people laughed at that platform and there were no useful applications for it and it took many years and platform iterations to get to current state where nobody laughs at it anymore.

Maemo started at end of 2005 and runs only on 2 devices both sold only in selected countries and each device has different version of OS. Over that 1.5 year we had 3 different (more or less incompatible) iterations of the system and quite few such changes are ahead. Also the user base is small. This is not yet good environment for producing commercial apps. It just does not make much sense now. So the only alternative how to overcome this period is free applications until/if the platform matures. I guess that was one rationale behind (first) developer program. To make this happen as fast as possible.

As for the second (N800) program this was about supporting those app developers that created something but also (which you may not know) many/most devices went to 'upstream projects' i.e. GTK, gstreamer, linux kernel, GNOME, ... guys. So basically these people will not write many end user apps for you but they will perhaps make sure that those projects will take Maemo needs into account and things will go more smoothly.

So while you don't see the result directly and in short term, from Nokia's point I think it makes sense.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Thanks for your insight fanoush. All information I glean on this forum affects my developing opinion. I am a member of the garage and do read Maemo.org.
However, these sites have undergone some changes and do not provide the continuity that a 40 or 50 page booklet provides. Try as I might to incorporate new technologies into my lifestyle, when learning something new nothing for me yet can beat the portability and convenience of a book, pencil with an eraser, and a traditional note pad.

Edit: That was fast! Things do change. :)

Posted on Maemo org recently:

>> http://maemo.org/intro/roadmap.html

Textrat, are these some of the improvements you spoke of?

BTW, I realize that being posted about by another can cause one to question the motives behind others posts. My advice is to let it go and the attention seeking nature of the other party will cause him to look somewhere else. Keep doing your thing man. :)

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

As a 770 owner (and vocal N800 refuznik) myself, I wholeheartedly agree with the cover issue being a non-priority compared to, say, "legacy platform" support... :-)

BTW, 2/3 weeks ago (ie quite a while after the last Nokia noises about 770 support) I posted a polite message to the maemo dev list, asking if there was an ETA for the next "hacker edition" 2007 OS for the 770. I asked because I wanted to try it out (it being the only upgrade path left to us by the Nokia roadmap), but was prepared to wait awhile if a new version was on the way.

After a week or so without an echo, I reposted the question, inquiring if perhaps it was stupid or impolite or something. Still waiting on that one too...

Meanwhile, the (very) few other posts on that list about OS2007HE made me wonder whether it is really more than a red herring (pun with Sardine intended), as some have surmised here, a way for Nokia to save face and assuage 770 owners without actually committing to anything much. While some report speed, stability and/or user interface improvements with this "unofficial" image, others warn that these come with drawbacks, making the 770 less operational than with the 2006 OS. Two at least are showstoppers for my personal usage : Opera crashing when presented with an "unvalid" SSL certificate (the exact same problem that prevents me from using Minimo), and the lack of support for the cover and its embedded magnet, degrading power conservation and autonomy (I suspect this last is a conspiracy by jealous N800 activists :-).

The way things are going, I'm not very hopeful these (and other problems) will be fixed, and OS2007 actually made usable on the 770. It's true, as someone else remarked, that after eighteen months the little bugger is still every bit as functional and useful day-to-day, maybe even more thanks to maemo mapper and Gizmo and Python and such. I'm not asking for a newer Flash (I could care less) or a newer Opera (gimme a newer Minimo :-) or, God forbid, a PIM... But I find it kinda sad that this little Linux box in my pocket still reboots itself at will at least once per 24 hrs (worse than Windows) after four OS updates, and its killer app (the browser) still knows more ways to fail than I can keep track of. Oh well.

Anyway, Tex, best of luck in your new endeavour(s), and thanks for your dedication. One last word, if I may : I'm certainly no shrink or Zen master, but it does show from your latest postings, my friend, that there is some strain at your end of the line. Perhaps it might help to shut out the trolls from your mind for a while and concentrate on positive and useful things, such as preparing a comprehensive report on Finnish ladies after your trip there :-)

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Yeah, a little bit of stress lately, but in all honesty even if I were not the tone of the posts in question would have been met with some irritation on my part simply because I feel it was undeserved. Really hit me wrong given what I have been trying to do. But, if I didn't have so many things pulling me in so many directions lately, and scrambling to make this Finland trip work, odds are I would have been more sarcastic than snippy. ;)

As to your remarks about no response re 2007 Hacker edition for 770, I share your pain. After at first being encouraged by some feedback regarding the N800 in general, I was next a little dismayed at some subsequent silence. I try to keep in mind that there are BIG organizational changes going on at Nokia which have many employees otherwise occupied. The dust is supposed to settle July 1-- just as all of Finland goes into a 1-month Summer hibernation from work. I have no doubt that the next few weeks will see a huge push to get stuff out before that shutdown-- Skype may even be one of them, despite my doubts.

As for Finnish ladies: hopefully there will be enough visible to report on. ;)

EDIT: lol... fixed spelling :o

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Duh, I didn't know about that reorg (obviously). Having the privilege of working in a big outfit undergoing massive and permanent change for the past years, I can understand how that may affect things as seen from the outside...
I only know one, living abroad here, and she's a stunner. Obviously not a statistical sample, hence my request for more data :-)
Yup, but the original typo is still where you quoted yourself, you know, in that "other" thread... :-)

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

D'oh! :D

*rushes off to fix stupidity*

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Aren't they one and the same thing though? They're both promises from Nokia, which are yet to be delivered. If Nokia can't be trusted to deliver on a simple case to protect the N800, what faith can anyone have in them delivering on legacy support?

So far it looks as though Nokia have their heads buried firmly in the sand where the case is concerned - several months late, no sign of it appearing and no explanation as to why.

There's been little progress on OS 2007 Hacker Edition in 3.5 months - even Carlos has not blogged about OS 2007 since 21 Feb, the date of the mkII release - so to me the two promises are intrinsically linked.

A positive update on one issue (the case) would give me a better feeling that Nokia may actually deliver on the other more difficult promise.

:)

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

And that ^ was the purpose of my original post. Not so much to get it done but to communicate to Nokia through an advocate that the perception of the quality of their company is slowly being eroded by things they can easily correct.

I don't mean produce a case. I mean communicate the reason for the delay or indicate that it won' t be produced and remove it from display.

Sure some will ***** and moan but loyalists will move on to other options.

It is sort of like an airline that keeps you in the plane on the tarmac to wait for their delay so you can't take a flight with another carrier. They may cop the revenue but they end up with many customers who say "never again".

I also would still want to hear their explanation as to why a link from their website to the distributors cost me $40. My Navicore transaction was handled by the distributors server and Nokia did absolutely nothing. And for my $40 dollars I got to post an enthusiastic review on this site about my experience with the product.

Behaviors like this as well as the continued 770 support debacle have a negative affect on everyones perception of the expected life of this thing.

I am an enthusiast, that's why I post on this enthusiasts forum. Once perceptions are cast though, it is hard to maintain that enthusiasm.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Your post is very general, YoDude, but I will answer for my own case: I do what I can, when I can. It's more than I should do given current circumstances but less than I'd like. I wish to God I didn't have to be so vague but that is what it is. I am not in design, I am not in marketing, I am not in sales, and I am not that close to executive management (nor do I have a wife with alleged ties to the higher ups). I cannot always answer for their action or inaction, either. All I can do is make recommendations, provide feedback and elevate issues. I do those religiously... but I am not OPK so please don't expect action just because I... try.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Hang on Mil-- again, it's a case (pun unintended but I'll take it) of perspective (and priority).

I personally can't make a 1-to-1 comparison between simple cases and urgent issues. If you do, I won't argue your right to that opinion-- but surely you understand that Nokia executive management might also have a different agenda?

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

I'm not suggesting the Case is as important as legacy support, I'm simply making the point that both are examples of promises that Nokia appears unable to keep.

Nokia announced the Case on the day of the N800 launch, the Case was actually present during the launch and shipping would (apparently) start during Q1 yet we're almost at the end of Q2 and it's not here, and still no word from Nokia. This is p1ss poor communication.

Whether it be the Case, legacy support, Skype or any other promised feature/accessory I expect Nokia to deliver on their promises and if Nokia is unable to deliver I would like them to explain why so that we can all move on (or b1tch like crazy!)

I don't like being kept in the dark - the Case (which I admittedly would like to purchase) is simply an example of how Nokia are failing to communicate - when things go wrong, they clam up.

Put simply Nokia don't like to communicate bad news to the community. The only way to address this is to challenge them, and that can start with the Case, or legacy support - it makes no difference, it's the same problem. Unless we ask what's going on, we're not going to be told and Nokia will continue to over promise and under deliver.

If Nokia exec management have cancelled the Case, tell us.
If Nokia exec management have cancelled legacy support, tell us.
Etc.

:)

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Okay I can agree with that.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Point taken. Not interested in the Case personally, but I can see how that and support can be viewed as different symptoms of the same problem. Boils down to communicating and delivering, I guess : little of the former, and sometimes confusing at that, and hardly any of the latter, lately.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Well then... by my own definition, if you are "make(ing) recommendations, provid(ing) feedback and elevat(ing) issues" YOU ARE an ADVOCATE for those of us who can't and you aren't trying anything.
For that I thank you. http://www.clicksmilies.com/auswahl/ernaehrung004.gif


As to the general nature of my issue you are correct... but that is where perception starts. Once the ball gets rolling it is hard to stop... and that is all I'm saying. If you can communicate this to them then you get a virtual cookie for that is all I can give. No one is holding you responsible if they choose to do nothing about it.
Let them decide what is trivial...

However, we are standing on the precipice to a time when a plethora of internet appliances will be offered to consumers. Many may have one on their next holiday gift wish list.

Traditionally, decisions on what high end electronic gadget to buy are made based on prospective customers surveying the opinion of others. The perception of the neighborhood, early adopter, forum geek at a backyard barbecue in July will likely have an affect on sales in December... IMHO :)

My motivation is simple. As an enthusiastic owner of an N800, I want Nokia to sell millions of the suckers.
I want more software developed so I can use my device more often. Robust sales and increased support by Nokia is in my best interest. :)

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

No problem YoDude, and I truly appreciate the difference in tone. ;)

We both want the same thing. I'm just in a slightly different position. I will use that to advantage every chance I get. In fact I recently posted 2 intranet blog entries on the N800 and am working on an executive presentation demonstrating some untapped potential. There are some kinks to work out but hopefully I can get the right people to recognize that potential and start clamoring for some improvements...

I'll help all I can, both ways. That's why I'm here.