Re: IMO, MeeGo will be a tragedy on smartphone market like Maemo!
 

That's not it.

In the "MS Windows world", HW is simply a commodity that has to fulfill MS standards and in all other respects has to be manufactured and sold as cheap as possible. The only one making money in this world is MS. It is the same with Android for all practical purposes.

The MeeGo world is very different. The upstream software is free and open. The leaching factor (MS) is cut out of the equation, and you will have more freedom, both literally and economically, to create market manufacture and sell unique products. Certainly some standards of binary or higher level compatibility will emerge, if needed, but it's mostly already there.

MS cannot compete with this, neither can Android/Google. They will loose people and they will loose money. It is already happening.

Re: IMO, MeeGo will be a tragedy on smartphone market like Maemo!
 

What are you saying? That people are looking for modular and commoditized phones/smartphones, thus MeeGo is poised to take advantage of this hidden desire?

Where's the (real and practical) unique selling point; compared against Android, iOS and WP7?

Re: IMO, MeeGo will be a tragedy on smartphone market like Maemo!
 

Possible. But..

Blackberry OS, slightly outdated (in terms of modern UI) and if I'm correct, you can only get a Blackberry OS from RIM. Thankfully they make devices on different telcos and different devices. But still limited by how many RIM can put out.

iOS (only from Apple) so it's limited by how many devices Apple can put out.

Symbian, probably the closest thing to Android in terms of dominance across different handset manufacturers. However, due to 'stagnation' Android is replacing it.

And now you have Android, an OS that can be installed on nearly any device with the backing of a major company (Google) who is always improving it and providing their own Google services first on the platform. They're pretty much the next Symbian but without the stagnation.

Now this doesn't mean Meego, Windows Phone 7, etc.. and the others won't survive. They may just not reach dominant marketshare. And depending on your strategy (e.g. Apple and their profit margins) that may not be the goal. But especially for Meego which has an uphill battle to face in terms of attracting developers, they need the handset numbers.

Re: IMO, MeeGo will be a tragedy on smartphone market like Maemo!
 

Well, I am not sure it is possible to explain it to you. You don't seem to be capable of comprehending more than two or three lines of reasoning at any single time. Sorry to be mean, but that's how I see it.

But I can try:

Google is making Chrome OS. A web based OS that works pretty much only on the web. This is one part of the future; the web for everything. You hardly need an OS for this, but you need the web. Jolicloud is similar, I have installed it, and it works. I'm not sure I liked it too much, but I'm sure lots of people do. The point is, as long as the web is there, and HTML5 is there, MS Windows has no place in there. There is nothing MS can do to make it better for the user.

MeeGo is similar. But MeeGo offers a total package, not just the web. But it still is Linux, and can use all he stuff made over the years for that platform. MeeGo is hosted by the Linux Fondation, MeeGo is the ultimate Linux distro, it is what all other distros should have been. Most of all, it is a common platform for - everything. It has everything, the web, the core OS, the UX and it works on everything, at least everything mobile. Any open standard can be used, and any closed standard can also be used for the manufacturer of HW. Netbooks and tablets will be sold with any variety MeeGo. They may look differently, they may behave differently, but they will all have the web and everything with it. They will all be able to run 3D games and so on. The manufacturers of HW don't loose anything, the users don't loose anything. What MeeGo does is to cut out the leech, MS and Android for that matter, and channel the money into HW and direct software development for their HW (but there is no need for much software development).

Have to add: MeeGo is an OS for mobile devices, it is not a smartphone OS, but more for devices called smartphone-ish tablets and larger. Symbian is Nokias smartphone OS, (the best OS ever produced, but that's irrelevant here). Unless this is understood, this discussion is hopeless.

Re: IMO, MeeGo will be a tragedy on smartphone market like Maemo!
 

too late for what? do you sign a contract with Win7, iPhone and/or android that you must use the same OS for the rest of your life or you must be killed or something?

Re: IMO, MeeGo will be a tragedy on smartphone market like Maemo!
 

Agreed.

But most of the cons couldmve been applied to Android or iOS at their birth - and they have done quite well, I believe...

Re: IMO, MeeGo will be a tragedy on smartphone market like Maemo!
 

what do you mean when you talk about userbase? if you are talking about latest figures, competitors have bigger userbase if their shares are combined....

how many developers competitors have? what about number of devs doing stuff to symbian?

and apps are just flaws of os. naturally you need some amount of different apps in order to customize the device just for you but every app released either adds feature(s) to os or make some feature(s) better........for example apple fanbois didn't like at all when they found out what the workflow is with n900 from starting camera app to get image tagged and uploaded to service x. they quickly changed the subject....

Re: IMO, MeeGo will be a tragedy on smartphone market like Maemo!
 

(Well, I've got some extra baits... I might as well feed you.)

You must be one of those who've been waiting for Linux to take over the desktop for more than 10 years. It's been poised to take over desktop computing for the exact same reasons cited there.

I've formulated my last question carefully, perhaps you should read and understand it completely before performing another embarrassing verbal diarrhea:

Where's the (real and practical) unique selling point for MeeGo; compared against Android, iOS and WP7?

Btw, 'cutting down the middlemen' is not the correct mantra here; because the middlemen brings value. They tie in and repackage all the variables to be consumable by the broadest % of audience and they're the one with the biggest interest to make the huge marketing push necessary.

Re: IMO, MeeGo will be a tragedy on smartphone market like Maemo!
 

Very good list of pros and cons. I would add Nokia's brand strenght as a darkhorse to the list. It could be in either plus or minus. The amount of people to whom mobilephone is synonymous to Nokia used to be staggering. Lets see how much of that is left by the time Meego is released.

Re: IMO, MeeGo will be a tragedy on smartphone market like Maemo!
 

You're right. But...

I'll get f'ed for saying this, but I think Nokia's 'smartphone userbase' is not that relevant. Why? Because they're more likely to buy Nokia's flagship models (smartphone range) because they're "Nokia's flagship"; NOT because of the smartphone capabilities.

Smartphone (last season, Nokia's prime): good camera w/ mms/3g call capability, some email, some browsing, some apps.

Current smartphone: past gen capabilities PLUS: great email, great browsing, hectic apps ecosystem.

I'd say N97 still hasn't made the full transition. (OK, N8 is a new ballgame, we'll wait and see its numbers).

I don't know, if their apps ecosystem are as busy as iOS/Android's, then they must be underground?

You're saying that apps like office file viewer/editors should be embedded into the OS?
Credit card processors (like Square) should be embedded too?

Come on.

You may utterly hate their restrictive practices or blatant commercialism or how freely inane junks creep into the appstores; but you can't deny that it's been such a sheer force in building a vibrant and productive developer community.

Let me change the subject real quick here..

Re: IMO, MeeGo will be a tragedy on smartphone market like Maemo!
 

None, that is the answer, at least as smartphones are concerned. I don't see any reason why MeeGo should be a great smartphone OS, at least not for some time when HW has evolved some more.

iOS has to be taken out of the list. iOS isn't sold separately. iOS and iPhone is one inseparable package. In a similar manner Symbian and Nokia is one package, at least that is how most people see it even though it is not technically entirely correct.

What we are left with that has some reality behind it is Android vs MeeGo on tablets. You may argue that people want Android. I say that is just US blogging nonsense. People want value, they want the web (and everything with it, and lots of it), they want HDMI, they want quality. The name of the OS means nothing. They want this :D The WeTab already outsells the iPad. That is what I have been trying to say. Get out the leeches, add value instead and it will sell. That is MeeGo.

Re: IMO, MeeGo will be a tragedy on smartphone market like Maemo!
 

Hey like me ! i love the phone(n900):D but really don't know how to use half the stuff that's inside this thing and i'm just a normal consumers! i hope i can take the stuff from this phone and put it on my next nokia that would be great for me !!

Re: IMO, MeeGo will be a tragedy on smartphone market like Maemo!
 

The stuff you guys talk about leave my poor head spinning !!:eek:

Re: IMO, MeeGo will be a tragedy on smartphone market like Maemo!
 

abill_uk, is that you? Seriously, step away from your keyboard.

Re: IMO, MeeGo will be a tragedy on smartphone market like Maemo!
 

FUD
thats all i can say till meego officially comes..

Re: IMO, MeeGo will be a tragedy on smartphone market like Maemo!
 

I don't think MeeGo will be any more official than it already is. What you probably mean is when someone releases a device with MeeGo on it. Someone already has.The WeTab.

Re: IMO, MeeGo will be a tragedy on smartphone market like Maemo!
 

Agreed with ericsson. The answer is none.

And the Nokia will not open the UI to other vendors.

So, I dont think big vendor, such as motorola, sonyericsson, htc, samsung etc will use MeeGo.

And MeeGo may be appear at many place, such as in tablet, or in your car (actually, there are few products now), but it cannot be the reason for the success of MeeGo. Android can do the same thing.

If there is no 'killer advantages' on MeeGo,

then the apps & developers of iOS & Android will be dominant Pros to beat MeeGo.

Because they already exist and do quite well, why should I change to a new one with the same function ?

When Android came out, iPhone is still accumulating users, now both iOS and Android become stronger and stronger. WP7 is also a big player.

But when N9 release on 2011, it is too late.
The smartphone market has been occupied by iOS, Android and WP7 !

Re: IMO, MeeGo will be a tragedy on smartphone market like Maemo!
 

Not killed or anything barbaric like that, they just confiscate your gonads when you leave.

Well, WinMob and Android wait till you leave, anyway. ;)

Re: IMO, MeeGo will be a tragedy on smartphone market like Maemo!
 

Feh. Symbian is a stronger brand name than iOS. iOS was predicted to take it all. Android has gained more share in shorter time. Etc etc etc.

Throw all the disclaimers, contradictions or qualifiers you like, the point stands: 2 newcomers have shown the apple cart CAN be overturned (pun unintended). Ergo, the outright fatalism directed toward MeeGo is nuts. Let's wait until the body is dead before burying it, eh?

...and MeeGo is an OS for the mobile computing future, where Moore's Law is cheerfully ensuring we'll very soon have devices to fully exploit its potential.

Re: IMO, MeeGo will be a tragedy on smartphone market like Maemo!
 

Err.. WP7 just came out, how can it already occupy the smartphone market? And why would Nokia not opening their UI be a factor in other manufacturers not making Meego devices? Heck I think some of those manufactuers are the ones that have been making their own Android UIs that have led to delays in operating system updates.

There are reasons why Meego faces a hard road ahead, but Nokia not opening their UI is not a reason.

Re: IMO, MeeGo will be a tragedy on smartphone market like Maemo!
 

Nokia has a huge fan base. If they serve it right, they will be selling it like hotcakes. Nokia hardware is the best. they just need to find the right engine.

Re: IMO, MeeGo will be a tragedy on smartphone market like Maemo!
 

I've been waiting for something like this. Ubuntu seems very excited about Qt for the future of both their mobile and desktop offerings. Nokia deserves all the credit for this. Just imagine Ubuntu allocating resources to help move Qt, and maybe even MeeGo, along.

http://arstechnica.com/open-source/n...fer-ubuntu.ars

Re: IMO, MeeGo will be a tragedy on smartphone market like Maemo!
 

That is true, but Android can also simply increase performance at the same pace as the performance of the HW increases. iOS will do the same thing. But we are talking the extreme high end here, and battery technology and power consumption do not follow Moore.

Symbian is the best OS for smartphones, it just needs some love and care and is receiving it en mass. This will be evident in 2011 also for the emotional Symbian hater-crowd. It is the number one smartphone OS, has always been number one, and will continue to be number one in the foreseeable future.

MeeGo is something else, an OS for mobile computers. I guess one definition of a mobile computer could be high end smartphone, but even then it will not compete head on with Android and iPhone. The N95 is the pinnacle of smartphones. Nothing released since has been more integrated with better overall functionality and user experience, not until the N8 (in lots of ways, but not all in all). Nokia will not allow any MeeGo device to compete head on with the N8/E7 range of phones, that would be stupid.

So the N9 have to be real good HW vise. It has to have it all, and then some. For MeeGo to have any sort of future in the close to phone end of the "mobile computers" segment, Nokia have to show that MeeGo allows then to produce and sell top notch HW that you simply cannot obtain using Android or WP7. And I think this is exactly what they are doing, unless some of the new CEOs axe it due to the miniscule market segment such a device will enter. When you think about it, what the N9 needs to be. It needs to be a N810 with a 1610 glued to the back, and with todays technology regarding screen, CPU, HDMI and stuff. They don't need to focus all that much on the phone end of things, as long as it works and isn't marketed as a smartphone.

Re: IMO, MeeGo will be a tragedy on smartphone market like Maemo!
 

Not necessarily. Win 9x became a lost cause due to inherent limitations and early design decisions that doomed it. The same kind of basic design problems are limiting Symbian now, and I think will limit Android and iOS down the road. From what I see MeeGo is the only mobile OS powerful and capable enough to keep pace with mobile HW for the foreseeable future.

Today's high-end smartphone is tomorrow's basic candybar. Mobile technology is evolving very fast.

Care to explain why?

Again, why? How will - can- Symbian keep up and stay #1 for years with the pace of technology?

Exactly my point!

Not directly, and it' s not necessarily intended to, speaking long-term. Those are smartphone OSs. MeeGo is aimed at the next generation of mobile devices, true mobile computers, of which the N900 is a kinda Model T.

Never used one, but I gotta think something has progressed past a several-years-old model.

It's not up to Nokia. Other manufacturers can do what they want with their MeeGo devices.

Regardless of how it's marketed, if it make calls careful attention must be paid to phone functions. As an example, how many users have here or elswhere complained about the N900 phone functions (which are just fine for me)? Gotta have those custom ringtones...

Re: IMO, MeeGo will be a tragedy on smartphone market like Maemo!
 

I'm pretty sure the Model T sold a lot better than the N900 and probably had far fewer warranty and customer care problems. Just saying.

Re: IMO, MeeGo will be a tragedy on smartphone market like Maemo!
 

bla bla bla bla blaaa bla bla...

Re: IMO, MeeGo will be a tragedy on smartphone market like Maemo!
 

Wha-wha wha-wha-wha-wha whaaaaaaAAa whaaa.

Re: IMO, MeeGo will be a tragedy on smartphone market like Maemo!
 

Re: IMO, MeeGo will be a tragedy on smartphone market like Maemo!
 

I've had my i4 for several months already and recently gave away my n900. I gotta say people seem to be looking at this all wrong:

When the N700, N800, N810 came out,they became a niche product with a hard core fanbase of dedicated enthusiasts. Many of them probably thought "this would be even more awesome with a phone attached, so I could carry just one device".

No one is saying the N700/800/810 was a "tragedy" or failure. We respect that it was intended for a smaller audience and wasn't meant to take up the fight with iPhone or any other device. Why couldn't we just accept that fact for the N900 as well? Great device, minimal support, minimal continuity, but all the keys were given to the developers from day one: "here, go forth and make great programs".

Instead, people sit around feeling entitled to great programs and great support and an awesome app store, because the competition have them.

Nokia came through and delivered the N810 in a smaller form factor with a better screen and a phone built in, so you could perhaps start carrying just one device. The rest is up to the user base, just as it was with the previous models.

Somewhere along the line, a lot of people lost track of the red line. The N900 seemed to have a chance to take up the bigger fight for world domination, because so many were excited by what they thought its potential was. The N900 tried for a while to live up to that, but after a while just said "aww, f*ck it, I'm going back to being what I always said I would and not what people want me to be". Which is where we are now and which is why I have an iPhone. I just don't have the time to get as involved with my handset as I would have to, if I still used the N900.

I think it was and still is an awesome device though. I hope you succeed with Meego and 1.3. And may your forums be free of uninformed trolls in the future ;)

Re: IMO, MeeGo will be a tragedy on smartphone market like Maemo!
 

Disappointing thread. I mean, the only reason to look here is to see what tags Texrat has given it, and have a laugh at that (and the OP, of course).

Now it almost looks like a real thread, not even in offtopic, while there was such a potential to make this part of the comic canon this site offers as a free service, next to all the FUD as opposed to some real information...

Re: IMO, MeeGo will be a tragedy on smartphone market like Maemo!
 

I like your angle.
What I am frustrated about though was when the N97(mini) was just out and the N900 was released I had to make the decision:
Do I want something that is a smartphone (N900) or something that is a smartphone (N97)?

With this I mean that the N97 is very good at the phone part, but the smart part of being a smartphone is/was quite lacking. The thing was slow when browsing the web while listening to music and Symbian was just a drag, not really what you expect from a flagship device.
The N900 on the other hand was very good at things like multitasking, browsing the web and customizing it to bits, but then the phone-capabilities were lacking.

To me, the N900 is indeed a smartphone. People keep going on about it being a mobile computer instead of a smartphone but I'm just not buying it. It has phone functionalities and definitely a phone formfactor, which for me makes it a phone. I really doubt Nokia envisioned N900 users to carry an additional 'true phone', which means the N900 should have well functioning phone capabilities as well.
I really like my N900 and do intend to keep it for a little while, but I am frustrated Nokia didn't take the additional effort to make the N900 into a real and well-functioning computer/phone hybrid.

For Meego I really hope Nokia realizes this and gets it right. For the N9 and successive Meego devices to become a success, the whole formula has to be right. We need a good looking, competent OS and the hardware to utalize it.

Re: IMO, MeeGo will be a tragedy on smartphone market like Maemo!
 

All these pies that Nokia has their fingers in are half-baked:

Maybe. But I buy CDs and do my own encodings from those.

What, again? They should either make a success of it or let it die gracefully - and never ever resurrect it again.

Pathetic. My 10+ year old Psion Series 5 does PIM better than any E series phone. Heck even my 15+ year old Series 3 does it better. In any case the PIM functions on an E series phone is practically the same dismal rubbish that is on the N series.

The only OVI branded thing that is worth using is Maps - but only on Symbian at the moment since the Maemo version is utter crap.

Re: IMO, MeeGo will be a tragedy on smartphone market like Maemo!
 

I think the phone part was an unnecessary distraction. They should have left it as a TABLET and rode ahead of the current wave of tablets. Instead... we ended up with neither a good tablet, not a good phone.

Also, I prefer TWO devices. I LIKE my phone to be a phone (with long battery life, separate from my computer/tablet/etc.). I would have preferred to see a phone act as a data tether, than this mockery of a phone that used to be a tablet effort.

Re: IMO, MeeGo will be a tragedy on smartphone market like Maemo!
 

Then the N900 is clearly not for you. As for me, I hate carrying more than one device, have no use for tethering, it works fine for me as both a phone and a tablet and I'm a happy user.

Different strokes for different folks. That's why there's so many choices on the market. But I don't get it - why complain here? I don't waste my time complaining in iPhone forums about why the iPhone sucks. I just don't buy one.

Re: IMO, MeeGo will be a tragedy on smartphone market like Maemo!
 

The most apparent thing in all this is that Nokia can't "do" software. It can't plan it, it can't develop it and it can't support it. Nokia is a hardware company.

There isn't any reason for Meego to be where it is right now. It should be shipping in some form, but it isn't. Nokia had access to Qt way back before it bought it. Maemo 6 should have been Qt based and the port of whatever they had done in M6 to Meego should have been child's play.

Who does Nokia think its fooling with its sliding delivery deadlines ? People aren't listening anymore.

I bought an N900 based on the promise that Meego would ship in a usable form sometime in 2010. It now appears that isn't going to happen and I'm pissed.

I don't understand what the hold up is with Meego. Nokia is a huge company. Resources should not be an issue. Meego is based on Linux and Qt, both of which are basically there to use. Its not as if they are starting anything from scratch. Intel et al are helping them. Its not as if they are working alone. They have access to all the hardware documentation. Its not like they don't have the information they need.

Why exactly isn't Meego shipping in some form, even if its only beta ?

All you have to do is watch the developer mailing list and see that the N900 target didn't get built for a month or more to know that something funny is going on.

I'd love to run that team. Nokia: PM me if you are interested.

Re: IMO, MeeGo will be a tragedy on smartphone market like Maemo!
 

Incredible, you can integrate two previously separate OS development teams and have a functional end-product in less than 12 months? Amazing!

That's called Harmattan.

They NEVER promised that.

It's not like you have a shred of insight into what Nokia and Intel are doing. They are starting from scratch. Just because the packages exist doesn't mean they'll just magically work together, and well, on the target hardware. Technically, MeeGo 1.1 is already good to go if you don't need cellular data.

Because MeeGo doesn't ship, it exists. Hardware vendors ship it. And shipping beta software is a bad idea.

Bugs? Conflicts? They sure as hell aren't ignoring it, unless you're insulting the efforts of Stskeeps and many others for some reason.

I'd hate it. It's obvious you have no clue what's going on.

Also, anyone who says that MeeGo is not targeted for smartphones is being willfully ignorant.

Re: IMO, MeeGo will be a tragedy on smartphone market like Maemo!
 

I love how the initial Meego 1.1 plans included marketing efforts (http://wiki.meego.com/Release_Engineering/Plans/1.1) and was supposed to occur on October 21st, 2010 and that has come and gone without any comment, let alone a marketing effort.

And now the release is being called a "platform". (http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=1691)

Would one really need a marketing effort to release a development "platform" ?

Who does Nokia think its fooling here ?

Does anyone understand the concept of release early and often ?

Why don't they pare down the system to the bare essentials (basic calls, phone charging, etc.) and SHIP so that people can at least start using it to get the bugs out ? Right now everything is being developed simultaneously and nothing works. They are trying to do Big Bang development and that NEVER works.

It took a long time for USB devices to automount in Fedora. It shipped without that functionality and people accepted that. At least there was a Fedora. Right now there is no Meego.

So here is my advice to the Meego team. Take whatever you have that works and ship it as TESTING. Strip out everything that doesn't work. After 2 months of user use and bug fix releases, call that subset of functionality STABLE. Then you will have a code base to start building from.

This business of shipping without calls working and without battery charging working is BS. That is the base functionality of what the phone has to do. Without that, it isn't a phone !

Forget SMS. Forget apps. Forget everything except the very smallest set of phone functionality. Get that stable, put it in testing and SHIP it and provide some support resources so that people start using it and it gets tested in end user hands.

Right now you have a mess. You have tons of code being worked on. Nothing works. Nothing is stable enough for any of the end users to test. You are missing shipping deadlines. You are pushing deadlines back. And the market is running away from you.

Re: IMO, MeeGo will be a tragedy on smartphone market like Maemo!
 

Plans change? You could, you know, go and ASK someone who is directly involved in the project what's going on, but it seems you're content to sit here and throw stones. Try #meego and #meego-arm for starters.

It's always been a platform. And a marketing effort for a platform would be directed at hardware OEMs.

MeeGo is going to be on a 6 month cycle. But it's always open, so the release is constant (unlike say, Android, which is released when Google feels like it.)

MeeGo 1.1 can can do that -now-, last I checked.

And your proof if this is where, exactly?

You seem content to command and control people from outside. I wonder how far you'd get if you actually started participating in the project.

Apparently you are wholly blind to MeeGo's progress.

Re: IMO, MeeGo will be a tragedy on smartphone market like Maemo!
 

a) Then ship it ! Ship early, ship often !

b) It is not "good to go". The testers running Meego 1.1 are plagued with issues. That is why there is no release.

It is very apparent you don't understand anything about software development. Being done so it runs on a developer's phone is very different from being able to run on an end user's phone.

The development team, including management, is lying to itself. It doesn't even realize it, but it is.

Re: IMO, MeeGo will be a tragedy on smartphone market like Maemo!
 

Sorry, that's my job :)

I don't exactly recall what you mean by 'not built for a month' - we had some down time with the ARMv7 build but all the due while we were doing ARMv5 images. We uncovered a GCC bug that broke even the simplest of things, including DBus and it took some time to locate and fix.

If you're speaking of the problem that we had two weekly releases not getting built properly, well, that was due to a release procedure not getting communicated properly when our release guy was on vacation. We're now part of the meego.com release machinery, we weren't before and that solves that problem once and for all.

I vote that you go and look at developer mailing list, meego-releases, the handset reports, bugs.meego.com, metrics and our IRC channel logs for #meego-arm to see there's real work going into it.

Even if MeeGo 1.1 isn't the swan I hoped myself it would be, I'm bloody proud of the work and effort we've (as in the team and the people contributing to the port) put into the N900 side of things.

And it'll only get better.

We're making sure we can keep the N900 port alive for a -long- time.