Re: Question for the community/council - Maemo/Meego
 

You're "associated" with this site. What would you suggest? I can think of a number of options OTTOMH, but don't want to overly restrict the suggestions you might make...

I'm not sure I understand. Are you suggesting changing the forum back to InternetTabletTalk (or the whole of maemo.org) would help with the funding? If so, can you elaborate?

Thanks in advance,

Andrew

Re: Question for the community/council - Maemo/Meego
 

I'll take 1 and 5.

Re: Question for the community/council - Maemo/Meego
 

But this'll never be the forum for them; and us discussing them comparatively with Nokia's Maemo devices is consistent with the people, tone and name of the forum.

I don't want to try and second guess what you're suggesting, but you're not making it easy - is it that TMO -> ITT (but what about the wiki, downloads, auto-builder, packages, bugzilla & garage?) would allow a) a clearer source of revenue and b) us to compete with xda-developers, androidpit, ...?

Re: Question for the community/council - Maemo/Meego
 

Let's honor this great man who has done a fantastic contribution for the N900 and this forum by changing maemo to magmo.
Many great developers on here but MAG stands out as a driving force.
He'll guide us through this time of darkness.
And Nokia slips him the complete maemo-sourcecode.:D

We salute you!

PS:
Not to be taken seriously but I'm very impressed with his massive contribution and influence on TMO.

Re: Question for the community/council - Maemo/Meego
 

If you ask enough incredulous questions, you can make anything seem impossible.

InternetTabletTalk DID exist, and Maemo.org was closely associated. That could happen again. it is not even difficult, I think.Step 1: Change the name of the site and leave everything else the way it is now. Step 2: Change the domain name.

Of course, nothing would be perfect till step 5, when perfection is guaranteed and the dead will rise from their graves and join us.

Sure, i'll contact Intel and ask them for funding. How about the council officially giving me the rights to negotiate the deal? Or spelling out whatever restrictions there might be?

Re: Question for the community/council - Maemo/Meego
 

Although i agree with you about TMO i think that the council should start consider alternative funding. Not only for the site but also for the community as a whole. I know we are many that want Maemo to survive and somehow we need to prepare the organization for that.

Re: Question for the community/council - Maemo/Meego
 

As I said, suggestions welcome! Any of the options I can come up with would seriously impact the users of maemo.org in one way or another. Perhaps someone can come up with something new?

Re: Question for the community/council - Maemo/Meego
 

I would put up $50 for any plan to make this site not dependent on Nokia regardless of whether the name was changed.

The reason I'm so keen on InternetTabletTalk is that seems like a large potential group of users and I don't see many competing sites.

Re: Question for the community/council - Maemo/Meego
 

True. But i don't see it possible to not do anything. I am not aware of the complete TMO organization but i guess we still are dependent of Nokia. Somehow we should start thinking about how to organize and how the organization should look afterwards. Like start something similar to a non-profit organization.

I know this is not easy and that someone will need to take a lot of responsibility on his shoulders if that is our path. And that it might not even be possible. Right now we have the n770-900 as the only devices. To survive, Maemo will need to find new devices to work on. The closest bet would be Meego-devices.

The easiest way would be to start a paypal-account. But that will need an organization that can handle funding. I am not aware if we have that.

Re: Question for the community/council - Maemo/Meego
 

I would contribute my $50 to a 'save Maemo.org fund' if it was controlled by some known responsible people from this site. Worst case I woud be wasting my $50.

Re: Question for the community/council - Maemo/Meego
 

I don't think that anchoring this site permanently to a company that has abandoned us is a recipe for longevity.

This site has long had a 'psychological' problem that anyone who didn't prefer the Nokia device at hand waas treated as an enemy. I would like to see the abolishment of the enemies list.

There are threads now that focus on non-Nokia products. I think they should be encouraged. I suspect that Webos is going to be the destination of many Nokia refugees. They should have a refugee camp here.

InternetTabletTalk would not compete with sites dedicated to some company. It would be dedicated to the best, wherever it comes from.

Re: Question for the community/council - Maemo/Meego
 

Hold yer horses, folks, let's not jump into conclusions just yet.

I would suggest that a nice, civilized letter should be written to the community infrastructure people on the Nokia side and ask for clarification if there is a change in stance, funding of technical parameters. Note that as the Nokia CEO said, most Nokia employees were completely unaware of the strategic choice made the other day, so even if there are changes (which are by no means a given, on the contrary), it will take a while until they trickle down to an operational level. Note #2 that for Nokia, maemo.org was already on life-support, as the focus shifted to meego.com (so not THAT different in terms the focus being shifted again).

In another food-for-though initiative, I would look at what the 2011 meego device really is when it will be formally announced, and maybe try to figure out if it and the enthusiast crowd it targets can be somehow be some source of synergy for the current maemo.org.

Re: Question for the community/council - Maemo/Meego
 

I would not trust assurances from anyone at Nokia and I think a just-in-case fund would be a wise precaution.

Re: Question for the community/council - Maemo/Meego
 

Yes, i concur in that. Another way on top of donations could be to allow some ads. Don't need to be anything special. Maybe just some Google ads.

As long as we are funded by Nokia we do not need to discuss a name change. It could however become a later issue.

Re: Question for the community/council - Maemo/Meego
 

When you say site, what exactly do you mean ? While the forum is the loudest and perhaps most visible aspect of maemo.org, it's just the tip of the iceberg. Companies that you hope to see support from were the ones that made sure maemo.org is treated as a stepchild from a previous marriage and the reason why there was/is no migration path to meego.com.

I'll be blunt. If Nokia pulls the plug without notice, we're dead. Unless, as stated above, you are interested in just a forum, which can indeed continue on a donations basis. The rest of maemo.org is, however, way too big/expensive to bear without major backing.

Re: Question for the community/council - Maemo/Meego
 

So what is needed? A forum, wiki, servers for the repository and a place to report bugs and development. You are probably right when you say that we in current state would not afford TMO. But couldn't we find a better working solution by downsizing and thus also cut the costs?

It could also be made so it would be easier to participate. It is not that i do not like TMO. It is great! But sometimes it can be a bit advanced for a casual user to get around.

Re: Question for the community/council - Maemo/Meego
 

Who owns the maemo trademark? Has Nokia given it to the community? If not, when they decide to de-fund the site, we'd have to change names anyhow.

Given that maemo was put on life support to move funding to meego, I'm guessing that the plug will be pulled for maemo as meego is moved to life support. Frankly, I don't see how we can count on continued funding from Nokia, no matter what prior assurances Nokia has given us. After all we were all pretty sure Nokia wouldn't partner with MS, right?

Really, shouldn't the council start exploring alternatives? Surely, it couldn't hurt to have a plan B in place if the unthinkable happened could it? Aren't there already some people who are mirroring the repository?

It couldn't hurt to have the council facilitate exploring some alternatives, including facilitating the organization of volunteers to mirror parts of the site, etc. Or perhaps they'd rather facilitate everyone leaving and making sure the lights get turned off when they leave.

It wouldn't hurt to be prepared rather than be caught off guard.

Re: Question for the community/council - Maemo/Meego
 

I admit that I'm mainly thinking in terms of forums.

If the rest will be dead without Nokia, well, "It's a good day to die," as they say. Lie down with lions and get up with fleas.

I don't remember having seen an accounting of what costs what.

I still think Intel could be interested in continuing to fight for MeeGo and sponsoring this site might be part of the deal.

Re: Question for the community/council - Maemo/Meego
 

Nokia owns the Maemo trademark, but has permitted the community to use it. They own the domain name too. There were suggestions to transfer it to the community, but it hasn't happened and I don't know why.

Good questions. It was already suggested to mirror the repositories, but it was not on the presumption, I believe, that Nokia would give sufficient advance notice if that was necessary.

Re: Question for the community/council - Maemo/Meego
 

So you don't want to be able to download software for you device, have developers the power of the auto-builder, the Community SSU, or the version control systems under garage which many people use? If you just want to keep the forum, it'll become a talking shop and - to be frank - shows you don't understand the value that the rest of maemo.org gives you and others.

Indeed, and finding the details of the various costings is a requirement to know what viable options exist. As Attila says above, this is one of the things the Council needs to do.

Re: Question for the community/council - Maemo/Meego
 

Bull.

That applied to trolls who stormed into a Maemo-oriented site and slammed the people and products involved.

There is a section here specifically devoted to alternatives, and the Maemo adherents don't make a policy of treating posters there as "enemies".

I really, really wish you would lay off the disingenuous hyperbole. Just once.

Re: Question for the community/council - Maemo/Meego
 

so are there plans to move to mirror the repositories elsewhere ?

Many seem to have the attitude here that regardless of what nokia does - the mameo community support will live on.

But this is not true, if (when ?) Nokia pulls the plug on funding, the repositories go down and community support for maemo effectively ends ?

Is this the situation now ? i.e. there are no backup plans and maemo community support is in practice at the whim of Nokia ?

If so I think the first priority is to have maemo support independent of Nokia funding. Given Nokia's company direction now and emphasis on cost cutting, it is very likely funding will be pulled.

Any plans for this ?

Re: Question for the community/council - Maemo/Meego
 

I wish you would stop specifically attacking me personally, Texrat. I don't think I have ever done that to you. (Proof to the contrary is welcome.)

Re: Question for the community/council - Maemo/Meego
 

Yes, the site has been impressive for its tolerance in those areas, but even there attacks based on "why are you here" have been quite common. Now the attackers have learned to just skip those forums, so the atmosphere is not as confrontational as it was for years.

You might ask Gerbick if he finds that he is always treated positively and politely. I don't think so.

People who check out this site and have a problem to discuss often start their posts "I really really LOVE my N900, but..." Why do they do that.

I don't drive into the auto store and say "I really really LOVE my car, but I have a flat tire."

Re: Question for the community/council - Maemo/Meego
 

I love Gerbick.

Re: Question for the community/council - Maemo/Meego
 

as i see it, the difference is much bigger this time.
it was probably one of Nokia'a goals to migrate as many talented (open-source) developers from Maemo to Meego as possible, so they couldn't just cut funds for the platform that attracted those developers in the first place.
none of those (well, not many anyways :) ) will migrate to the Microsoft platform... so in my opinion Nokia is much more likely to cut their expenses even further by axing this site.

but i hope i'm wrong about this. :)

Re: Question for the community/council - Maemo/Meego
 

Problems is many "whinners"/trolls whatever is whinning too totally wrong people and/or for wrong reasons.

Some examples: This endless discussiions about flash and lack of new PR versions or Nokia should go Android blablabla.

So personally I can understand if people getting sick of this and ask people too leave the forum.

I mean cmon do anyone here beleive ANY Nokia board directors or market departments is even bother read this forum?

The sad is that most whining is directed to totally wrong people.

Just take a look at planetqt.org or nokia forum since friday.

Hell!!! it looks like most of the people really is stupid or just ignorant and blame the engineers for the Nokia mess when the problems is the directors board and the market deparment and bussiness people :mad:

Re: Question for the community/council - Maemo/Meego
 

That wasn't an attack. It was a request.

I can't figure out why anyone would have even the slightest problem with that.

Re: Question for the community/council - Maemo/Meego
 

IF they kill this site (wish a doubt), would it be a big problem?

1. Will the community die? No
2. Will QT die? No
3. Will Maemo die, No atleast not until people leave stop using N800/N900
4. Will most of the threads about flash, going android no PR threads die YES :-D

After some days now of "thinking" I have come to some conclusions: This is Nokias mistake. The community will move forward. But it can move faster forward if we stop this "dark thinking" about future for the Maemo/Meego/QT and keep develop commercial or/and open apps for N900 and comming Meego tablets etc...

Remember the old CEO did say something about "FIGHT BACK" last year?

Well "Nokiaboard" gives (==paniced) up now, but NOT the engineers working on Qt/Meego inside Nokia(or outside) and the rest of the open freeworking community who still beleives in Qt/Meego.

Re: Question for the community/council - Maemo/Meego
 

If Nokia pulls TMO funding, the TMO repositories will die correct ? And there is currently no backup or mirror in place correct ?

So where will n900 code/community support be distributed from ? If there is no community support, the Maemo is effectively dead ?

Or is there a backup or mirror currently in place ? I took a look around TMO and couldnt find any mention of a backup - just some mentions that a mirror needs to be done soon.

Re: Question for the community/council - Maemo/Meego
 

TMO stands for Talk.Maemo.Org. It is a forum. It has a lot of people and a lot of posts. The software is hosted on repository.maemo.org and accessed through maemo.org/downloads/ and maemo.org/packages/. That has thousands of packages which encompasses the majority of third party software for Maemo.

There is also garage.maemo.org which provides developer support services (such as mailing lists and source code management).

So you are correct in saying that losing maemo.org would be a big deal. However:

• We are fairly confident we'd have some warning about a change in the funding status. Quim has recently said similar, but it won't hurt to ask for a reconfirmation.
• We are going to ask for a breakdown of costs so that if things do change, the community will know what sort of money is needed.
• There are a couple of mirrors of repository.maemo.org floating around. One was got up and running a couple of days ago: not much warning is needed.

Re: Question for the community/council - Maemo/Meego
 

I have a simple question for the council.

Can someone ask nokia to provide a price for the closed source parts of the now legacy maemo 5 operating system?

At the very least a cost for the most important parts that we cannot re-write ourselves.

i.e. mce (or whatever the fu.. it is called)

Re: Question for the community/council - Maemo/Meego
 

Thanks for that - appreciate it. Sometimes alot of people take for granted the community support for the N900 and dont think about the nuts and bolts of the situation and what can go wrong.

Not trying to be paranoid, but given the current Nokia/MS situation I think no one can be sure or have firm expectations about the future. Having a backup plan if the worst happens is a good policy.

But from the sounds of things you guys have considered this possibility and have it in hand - that is reassuring.

Re: Question for the community/council - Maemo/Meego
 

It does seem that everything is in the balance even the future of this forum, Nokia certainly have a lot to answer for but i guess the only way to look to the future is to realise what would or could happen if Nokia shuts down completely, which now is a strong possibility.
At least that way you start to develop a true future road on its own merits without Nokia.

Best option i read so far is continuing support from the likes of Intel.

Re: Question for the community/council - Maemo/Meego
 

TMO doesn't have repositories.

TMO is talk.maemo.org, the forums that comprise one component of the larger maemo.org. Talk is run from a server Reggie has hosted somewhere; I know not where. I do know the Talk server is not hosted at the same location, or by the same company, as the rest of the maemo.org servers.

Nokia has been covering the hosting cost of the Talk server so Reggie no longer needs to run ads on the site, as he did with InternetTabletTalk. Should Nokia stop providing that money, it may be possible to switch back to ad-based funding, but I do not know if:

1. the increase in forum activity since the InternetTabletTalk days would make ad-based funding more difficult
2. the funds the ads brought in during the InternetTabletTalk era were enough to fully cover Reggie's hosting costs even then

And regardless, keeping just t.m.o alive doesn't help maintain all the other services maemo.org provides, such as the repositories.

EDIT: Jaffa was faster. I'll leave this here in case the information on the forum's ad-supported past is useful.

Re: Question for the community/council - Maemo/Meego
 

Am sure many many of us would want to contribute financially if ever a situation came that actually threatened Maemo.org.

I would for one and have no second thoughts.

Re: Question for the community/council - Maemo/Meego
 

Which is why we'll be finding out costs. However, I suspect that from your comment here and the $50 mentioned above, we might be able to scrap together enough for a month.

There is a lot of traffic. The repos are hosted in content-distribution networks to increase throughput (but increase cost); there are build servers, web servers, mail servers, ...

A quick whip round is not going to do it. Asking the community to pay (how would that work?) presents an us & them atmosphere between those who contribute and those who don't. It would need to be considered very carefully.

So, would you & geneven care to draft a proposal as to how it could work? Assume we can find volunteers to do all the sys admin work and that we're only dealing with bandwidth and server costs (let's go for renting), so let's say somewhere in the region of $5000 a year (that's an educated guess) - we can revise it in light of actual sums at a later point.

Thanks in advance,

Andrew

Re: Question for the community/council - Maemo/Meego
 

One of the ways would be to create an account that people can pay directly into and set up a monthly figure for example as a direct debit to enable a fixed amount per month.

Some homework is required to get the actual figure needed per annum and then see how many people are prepared to contribute on a fixed monthly basis.

I really do not see a problem because this community is more valuable to end user than i have ever seen before, anyone can come with a question and within minutes get answers, that makes it valuable, just think of the phone cost per problem to helplines etc if we did not have this help readily available on here.

Re: Question for the community/council - Maemo/Meego
 

With just a little warning that can be taken elsewhere relatively easily. I'm more concerned about the nokia.com repositories which contain closed bits and thus can't be copied legally.

Re: Question for the community/council - Maemo/Meego
 

GOD DAMMIT, somone leak the ****ing code already!