Re: Meego is dead for good
 

C is more portable than JavaScript (which is used in HTML5 apps). The standard can be Linux, *BSD, etc.
Doing serious stuff in HTML5 for a desktop or phone is beyond stupid.

Re: Meego is dead for good
 

When I heard the Tizen details at AppUp Elements, my first thought was that most apps would be hybrid HTML5 + device native code. Intel in fact confirmed that at our "fireside chat". So don't get too hung up on HTML5's shortcomings. There's an API for that. ;)

Re: Meego is dead for good
 

So then why not just have everything done in native code, using GTK or QT or something?

Re: Meego is dead for good
 

Compatibility of course. Instead of recoding 100% of an app to run across multiple platforms, code an HTML5 layer for consistent look and feel for all and address unique aspects with lower-level code. So that the average app could be, say, 50% common code and 50% native. That saves time for companies like Rovio who like to land on every platform.

In addition, not every app needs the native horsepower or functionality. HTML5 will be able to address a great many handy little utilities by itself.

I can understand why C++ developers get overwrought about paradigm shifts like this one, but really, there is nothing to fear, belittle or berate. Just another tech evolution.

Re: Meego is dead for good
 

Yes, before the iCraze, these were known as "websites" :p

Re: Meego is dead for good
 

no, because there is nothing like native code, C specially, and pretty much those engines likely written in C.
as far as performance there is nothing close as pure breath C.

Re: Meego is dead for good
 

The W3C doesn't have a "final recommendation" status, "recommended" is the end of the line (see link in previous post).

Things evolve, even languages like COBOL are still being revised. :-) HTML 4 was a standard. So was HTML 4.01, and XHTML 1.0 and so on.

HTML5 isn't, and won't be for a while yet. There's a lot of hype about it certainly, and I don't blame Intel/Samsung for jumping on the bandwagon (everybody else is), but it doesn't make for a stable or portable development platform.

Re: Meego is dead for good
 

Now, that sounds a lot like Chrome's NaCL. Hmmmmm

Yeah... who needs native code to run a calculator app, a hangman game or even a fart app? Think about it! INDEPENDENTLY CROSS PLATFORM FART APPS! :)

Now, for the 3D shooter or fighter, you might need native code at least involved, sure... :)

But of course "there's nothing like it," except anything that IS ultimately like it. (You really didn't state anything.) Let's hear some genuine reasons, please, otherwise you have no basis for your refutation.

I, on the other hand, can point RIGHT UP AT THE TOP OF THIS POSTING to Texrat's posting about Intel's HTML5+native code position in Tizen and then to my reply to his post about NaCL (i.e. Here.. here's an article you should read). The benefit there is that you get the best of both worlds: apps that don't need it (probably MOST), don't NEED to be written in C and can benefit from HTML5's WIDE platform range--but if you're arsed enough that you need to, you can write native C code.. and then wrap it in HTML5 so that it can distribute to platforms that can run that native code.

FAR better than pure C native code. NO disadvantage.. unless you're Microsoft and this kills your PC platform strategies and profitable licenses.

Re: Meego is dead for good
 

I really do not understand this point of view. If you want portability, you use C and something like SDL, or GTK or QT, which are guaranteed to run on almost all devices with a screen. HTML 5 is very unstandard (lots of machines don't have support for it), and when you mix native code to it you lose all the multiplatform benefits you might have had.

But why? How many people know C compared to HTML5? I don't see how implementing even simple applications in HTML5/JavaScript is easier than in C/C++.

Evolution? If by evolution you mean usefulness, then this is an involution. Are you under the impression that the CPUs are infinitely fast, and use no energy? Each extra level of abstraction will eat your battery and slow down your device.

Re: Meego is dead for good
 

Some guys must have balls as big as footballs to come on here and say meego is DEAD when you got people like stskeeps heavily involved in meego development.

I would not be suprised if he did not come on here and shoot you lot ;).

Re: Meego is dead for good
 

You mix apples with oranges and finish it off by countering your own argument.

Here you argue for native code, C or C++, together with SDL, GTK or Qt, which I'm guessing is there as something "platform independent".

But, that's exactly what HTML5 is planned to bring to the table. With a rendering engine for HTML5 available, it replaces GTK and Qt and supplies bindings for playing sound and video using yet another batch of native code. Just as SDL, GTK and Qt does.

This is just a red herring. Have you done any HTML(5)/JavaScript development? If you failed at it, does it make HTML5 a failure?

Have a look at the available HTML/JavaScript development tools out there. FireBug, for example, makes it easy to test and debug your code inside the browser that is then going to run the code which is something you can't just whip together if you're compiling and debugging your C/C++ code. Especially not when developing for a mobile device...

Since HTML5 a new, soon to be, standard, it's obvious that there are fewer developers that know it compared to some other established technology.

What has "usefulness" to do with energy consumption? Keep your fruits separated.

Re: Meego is dead for good
 

going to try and close that OFF-TOPIC paranthesis
not that the thread has many topic related posts, but, still...

[close OT]
this all sounds like an academic discussion, if it wasn't for the fact that it is hosted on a web forum and thus just usually forum crap without the slightest practical use... arguing about the sex of the angels :rolleyes:
ever heard the motto "eco-system"?
Flop was one of the last ones to try and make it sound like it was the future, for NOKIA if nobody else.
point was, NOKIA will have a much brighter future once it is sharing an app store w/ m$. apart from the fact that if it really was about app store, it would have been much more effective to choose ANDroid as an OS, the whole point of an APP store is to have ppl give you their CC# to get as many apps as they can (not) afford.
cross-platform? naaaa, not really.
[/close OT]

MeeGo dead?
well, as far as NOKIA ever was concerned, after the announcement of the N9 my first thought was «naaaaa MeeGo isn't ready yet, so they had to polish it some, to make it usable on a daily basis...»
looking @ it now, well, MeeGo gone, one is left with Harmattan and Meltemi.
Maemo is still firmly in NOKIA's grip
the site, the proprietary code parts, everything (that matters).
thus, the moment Flop's contract gets ended (a couple months after the 1st m$ device(s) fail as miserably as any other m$ device before) NOKIA will concentrate on Symbian devices again and... MeeGo is dead, long live Maemo :cool:

Re: Meego is dead for good
 

Oh yeah, so much for the platform independent stuff.

In the end you always need either port of the libraries (c and c++ frameworks), or port of the engine (python, java, android pseudo-java, html and javascript).
What HTML5 provides is a scripting language dedicated to UI design, but so does QML..

Re: Meego is dead for good
 

The funny thing is, up to version 1.1 MeeGo was also supposed to provide a web runtime. But for some reason they decided they needed a completely new project instead of just adding it back.

Re: Meego is dead for good
 

1. HTML5 is not, right now, available on the machines the previously mentioned libraries are available. And it will never be, especially on the older machines.

2. HTML5 is obviously not as fast as native library, because there is lots of parsing and scripting involved, which is slow and inefficient.

I didn't, but how is that relevant?

WTF kind of question is that? How can something be useful if it eats your phone battery significantly faster than what we had before?

Re: Meego is dead for good
 

Another red herring. You like fish, apparently.

Was GTK or Qt available for all those platforms from the start? Of course not. It's a gradual process of porting, as always.

And if HTML5 doesn't make it to your toaster running GTK, what of it? There are lots of useful technologies that haven't been ported to every platform out there. And a surprising amount that have, thanks to the efforts of industrious programmers.

You mean, as with all and every browser out there parsing ordinary HTML and rendering text and images while running JavaScript?

On the relative scale, rendering engines are slower than "native code", nothing to argue about there, but they offer lots of nifty features that you need to know pretty well to use effectively in C/C++ to get the same feature set. This is part of the power of HTML(5).

I dare you to write this simple program in C/C++ and get the same features and then claim that it's so much harder in HTML5. I double dare you to explain how the tools used for C/C++ are easier to use than an ordinary text editor and the "Reload" button in a browser.

It's relevant because your argument is incredibly weak. Just because you think HTML5 is harder to use than C/C++, it doesn't make it so. Especially since you didn't even try it (and I'm interpreting your answer kindly now excluding the "failing at it" option).

Something being useful isn't limited by battery consumption. I can run lynx (or even wget) in an xterm on my N900 and "surf the interwebs" but it's easier to do it using microB, a browser, even though it will "eat my phone battery significantly faster".

And for the record: I loathe having to write HTML and I wretch at having to write (and debug) JavaScript. I, like you, prefer C for most things.

I'm not defending the HTML(5) technology as such, I'm addressing your arguments.

Re: Meego is dead for good
 

You are obviously trolling.

WTF... we have at least 3 libraries that have ports on pretty much all the OSes, and can be ported on any device that runs those OSes. And now you want developers to develop on yet a new thing, that is SLOWER, not widely adopted, and has little or no benefit over the existing things?

Yes, I mean exactly that.

I am not sure what are you trying to say here. That whole HTML code can be replaced with one line of C code, if you already have a function to draw text at specific locations on screen.

Well, I triple dare you to write a HTML5 program that is even half as efficient (in terms of CPU cycles) than the equivalent C program. Did you see that fractal HTML5 demo? It is probably about 100K times slower than native code.


I never said HTML5 is harder to use than C/C++..



Totally irrelevant example, or 'red herring' as you like to say. If you write an application in HTML5 or GTK, for example, the user should not see any difference. it is about lazy application developers who don't want to make an extra effort to assure more efficient code.

My arguments still stand. No HTML5 code will ever be near as efficient as native C code.

Re: Meego is dead for good
 

And I don't think it is meant to. The majority of the "apps" are only there to display/transfer preprocessed data between API (that use native code) and servers that provide/process the data (and use native code).
HTML5 is more efficient for that because it reduces development time at the cost of runtime efficiency. But in that case, UI is the main aspect of the program hence high dev cost and low runtime cost.
For the rest of the applications (productivity and games), even tizen will provide a native framework (EFL).

Re: Meego is dead for good
 

Au contràire. I'm actually just reading what you write, and very carefully at that, and responding to, in my eyes, weak arguments.

I don't want anything apart from constructive and balanced discussions about new technology.

And, again: those three libraries didn't start out being available for all those platforms. The porting has been gradual.

No, it takes quite a bit more to do the same thing. You need a canvas, you need font support, you need to tinker with window handling, you need a compiler and an environment for it to run in and you need to assemble all these parts to get a binary that writes "Hello world!" in a window.

That's my point. And one benefit with browser bound development is that you can do all this with a simple text editor and the "Reload" button to review the result.

I'm sure this is some ways away from the goal of HTML5.

But as a suggestion, I'd venture to guess that streaming video will use the same native support libraries no matter if you use GTK or HTML5 for the decoding. Then you need to pay for parsing the HTML document once and then it's pretty much the same CPU cost.

You wrote the following:
But why? How many people know C compared to HTML5? I don't see how implementing even simple applications in HTML5/JavaScript is easier than in C/C++.

This sounds very much as such a statement. But what do I know.

I'd say it's a very relevant example based on what you actually wrote.

That's an interesting extra requirement you just added. Why is that a given?

Or it's a way to hide most of the ugly stuff via abstraction and supply most of the same functionality using the browser/rendering engine.

If this is your main argument, I do have to wonder why you ventured into arguments about how development would be done and how porting to other platforms was unlikely.

And even if you're right: how does this nullify the usefulness of HTML5?

Re: Meego is dead for good
 

I dont get why theey dont merge Tizzot with WebOS who already is heavily based on HTML5?

and another thing about tizzon is will Tizzot support Qt in core I really doubt. why would samsung/Intel have intrests in something that Nokia has intrests in. I know nomovoc will support Qt but something is really smoking here. Even if I agree HTML is they way to go in long run but I doubt it can fully replace lower level languages like C/C++

so this means we will be iinroduced to YET another API. Question is are the community willing to learn yeat another new API? isnt Linux fragmented enought with different API doing same thing? Seriously atm I have NO trust in those big companys. And Linux foundation!? well I dont know! after the mess with maemo/meego/moblin/webos and now Tizzot.

well well lets see whats happen. Personally I will follow the Mer project and hopefully give them some kind of help too... Atleast by testing weekly images of "MerHCE" then it maybe "merge" with tizzot in the long run who knows......

but atm. I have no trust in those company projects were it more looks like all of them trying to "pissing in theyr revirs" and make it looks like they care about FOSS.

Re: Meego is dead for good
 

Those are tools that all the C programmers that do GUI stuff already have.

Or you can do a compile and run, which is one button too (depending on your IDE). And obviously, if you use native code in your HTML5 app, doing a refresh won't do much..

Exactly. HTML5 has a different target and purpose (web mainly).

Yes, streaming video is going to use native code, and it is one of the reasons why HTML5 was designed for. So that's a good use for it.

And if you read what I said carefully, you will notice that I did not say it would be harder. Of course, if you want to debug stuff, oh well..

It is not a requirement. Notice how I used SHOULD instead of MUST.

And it is a way to add a huge number of security issues, if you mix native code and HTML. Remember the days of ActiveX, and how many exploits were centered around it?

Obviously, with limited CPU resources, people generally strive for efficiency. This is why you won't see graphic intensive games, encoders, decoders, etc. done in anything but C/C++ This is why Mono is not that widely used on Linux. This is why most desktop applications are written in C/C++ and not in Java or C# (although some are written in stuff like python and other scripting languages).

HTML5 is very useful for what it has been intended for: WEB. For other things, it's the wrong way of doing stuff.

Re: Meego is dead for good
 

I often enjoy your posts, but I don't always agree with them, even if I agree with the drift of them. However, this is one of the better posts I've read on here in some time - thanks.

Re: Meego is dead for good
 

Comletely agree on that m8, though not the way you'd think. Yes programmers are lazy, but thats what drives them and technology forward. Let me explain why. All these interpreted languages(including C and C++) and tools(Qt, TK, GTK, modules etc.) came to life becuse of their 'lazyness'. You could also argue using interpreted languages vs. assemby. We all know the reasons there and I belive we have simillar reasons for this change as well.

Anyone knowlegeble would happen to know a bit more details about this HTML5 buisness? I mean how is it gonna work, will there be a lib that the OS could look at and execute the 'foreign' code or how? I don't mind even if someone just gives a link which explains it in more detail.

Re: Meego is dead for good
 

They say that laziness is the mother of 9 out of 10 inventions. And it is true. This being said, laziness should not be used as an excuse to do crappy work.
I guess you mean that C is 'interpreted' in the sense that it is not machine code. Yes, C is less efficient than hand optimized ASM, however:
1. Over the years the compilers are doing a pretty good job in optimizing the binary code produced from C programs.
2. There are many CPU families out there (X86, ARM, RISC, etc.) and each family has different members with extended instruction sets, etc. So it would be a nightmare to port application from, say, X86 to ARM.

This is one of the reasons why C has been developed: to be almost as fast as assembly, but portable and relatively efficient in terms of coding time.

Re: Meego is dead for good
 

i can get m4a streams of youtube, any flash site =)

so vurnerability is on flash.

Re: Meego is dead for good
 

so an iteration calculation app is probably thousand times faster. what about an average fart app, are the farts 3000% faster and louder?

Re: Meego is dead for good
 

As I was saying before, HTML5 has its uses. Playing movies, sounds,and displaying formated text are what it was designed for, so a fart app would be quite 'good' for HTML5. But most people need something more than that.

Re: Meego is dead for good
 

Probably not. But if you build a platform aiming at the average fart app, that's likely all you're going to get.

Re: Meego is dead for good
 

Yes? You have them, I have them and we both know how to use them as in writing the code, compiling it and debugging the result.

But for others, not as versed in GUI programming as you, having to do all this to get a simple application is a lot of work and includes learning some pretty complicated stuff. HTML5 lets them use an interactive environment for debugging (using, for example, FireBug) and it takes almost no time to have something up and running.

And it's still possible to build pretty complicated applications using HTML5.

If you wanted to express "I'd like it" or "It'd be good" or something similar, I'd recommend writing that instead of using "should" since that, really, says that you expect it and see it as a requirement.

(I spend almost every day at work reading requirements and "should" is the one special word that really really signifies a requirement. Together with "shall".)

This is a valid point, to a certain degree. You can do much using only JavaScript and the browser supplied mechanics for, for example, HTTP requests but the security model is definitely important.

I do hope the HTML5 group, together with the browser developers, have learnt at least some lessons from earlier attempts.

Yes? I've seen some pretty impressive pure HTML5/JavaScript action games already but if you want to do serious number crunching, HTML5/JavaScript is, obviously, not the best way.

But it will work in most cases, albeit slowly.

An interesting example from my reality is the technology used in some IPTV set-top boxes. Motorola is one example. There, a special HTML/rendering engine, or a pretty vanilla Mozilla, is used for all EPGs and the portal stuff. The box typically comes with 128MByte RAM and a 200-300MHZ ARM CPU which is even worse than our sexy N900. And the box runs Linux.

A browser based solution is still a good compromise between feature set and general knowledge needed for development.

Isn't it?

Have you had a look at some of the Java/OpenGL games coming out lately? Pretty impressive, I'd say.

When it comes to C#, it sounds a bit like you aren't up to speed on all the application development that is done using it. I do it every day at work and the resulting (desktop) programs are, without a doubt, as useful and fast as any C++ application as long as you stay away from I/O intensive stuff since that's hit pretty hard by the GC if you're not really careful.

You keep saying that and I can respect that as your opinion but apart from that I'd have to say you're wrong. It's another way of doing things.

Re: Meego is dead for good
 

I think RFC2119 is relevant to this conversation

Re: Meego is dead for good
 

This might have been mentioned already so apologies for re-asking. HTML5 is client side, right? What happens when you want to write data to somewhere a bit more permanent than the browser's (or whatever the client is called) cache/cookie jar?
Clients only work if there's a server to provide the content so now Meego is being replaced with an OS that's all about client side technology, what's supporting it? Can on-device servers be written in a client side API?

Re: Meego is dead for good
 

Re: Meego is dead for good
 

Not really relevant to the whole "Meego is dead" but from what I can see WebSockets is/are an alternative to AJAX. After a quick dig (should have looked earlier - sorry!) I see there's the emergent FileSystem API ... mmm ... we'll soon see how safe that is!

Re: Meego is dead for good
 

I would imagine Tizen and Meltemi will use the WAC api for HTML5 apps that want to use device capabilities. Carriers are pushing to have WAC implemented so they can have their own app stores with offerings that work on all the smartphones they offer.

With regards to the C/C++ v JavaScript debate, you might find this blog by Havoc Pennington interesting: Embeddable Languages.

Personally I'd like to avoid low level stuff like C unless there's a bottleneck to alleviate, scripting is just easier.

It's better for manufacturers to limit 3rd party developers to managed environments too, it stops their reputation being tarnished by a crashing app taking the OS down with it.