Re: Pls release the source (again)
 

You have been moved and merged!

Re: Nokia, its time to release driver specs!! Open the drivers!!
 

Abill_UK's hostile, trolling post was deleted. That sort of thing has gone far beyond an acceptable point.

Maemo.org encourages constructive dialog of all kinds-- emphasis on constructive. And yes that includes harsh criticism. But not when it gets personal. Not when it's repeated ad infinitum.

Let's be civil, or take it to a site that thrives on childish behavior.

Re: Nokia, its time to release driver specs!! Open the drivers!!
 

All those whiners aboutnokia not opening drivers apps et ? Have they even done any apps for n9?

To me it looks like most of them seems to have no clue about coding anyway?

May i ask you what would you fix if source was opened?? As far as i know the people who has skills has access to some of the code to fix stuff let them doit. Thats one of the reason nemomobile did move forward but it seems to have frozen and why is that? Probadly because people spend to much time here (me included) whine about nokia not open source stuff instead of making a nemo project a real new cool foss project. How cool it could be see harmattan inspired ui on nemo working on n9, n900 but also blackberry playbook hell WANT THAT oh yes :D


All this time could be used to improve ui i. nemo instead.
If you want a open os invest some time on openmode and nemo instead of sitting her and hope for something that never will happen.

Again no company will fully open everything. Stop dream.

Re: Nokia, its time to release driver specs!! Open the drivers!!
 

everyone is crazy for asking nokia to release the software for harmattan, that is Gold. Just ask them to make another phone instead of asking for the damn software.

Re: Pls release the source (again)
 

I probably shouldn't actually reply to the angry people here...

But I did fix the Wikipedia article so it clearly states that it was developed by Nokia and improved upon by the Maemo Community.

You don't have to have all the source code to develop FOR the OS, otherwise no one would be able to develop for Windows. On the other hand it's nice to have the source code to develop ON the OS. But closed drivers hardly matter, otherwise there wouldn't be anywhere near as many video games for Linux that use 3D acceleration, because the current open source drivers for Linux pretty much stink on Linux.

Look at how many improvements CSSU has made on Maemo5. The main reason we want the sources to the binary driver blobs is so that we could update the kernel and make it easier to add new features that way. I'm not even a programmer, and I know that.

I could be incorrect, but Hildon itself is open source, which means all the UI stuff could be tweaked, fixed, etc. I wonder if porting it fully to gtk3 or qt4 or 5 would be beneficial.

Really the big thing is to get Hildon / Fremantle ported to use other hardware, in which case again the closed source binary drivers wouldn't stop that, unless the target platform(s) also have closed source binaries.

There already has been a ton of work done to reverse engineer binary blobs to make them open source, like the battery monitor. The open source version actually works much better on my newer N900, which had a horrible bug where it'd be fully charged, but as soon as I disconnected the cable, it said it was completely drained until I rebooted it. The battery patches fixed that!

I think the CSSU project has been phenomenal. Nokia won't help us, they really can't. So crying to them for source code won't do any good. The ones you should be crying to are the hardware manufacturers that they outsourced parts from. They are the ones with the ability to say "sure, we'll give our code to the community."

slaapliedje

Re: Nokia, its time to release driver specs!! Open the drivers!!
 

Gonna add fuel to the fire, but...

It's been stated over and over that the sources will not be released. In fact, it's been explained logically why. And given who's asking, if it were truly open sourced, what benefit would it have to you directly? That person would still be waiting on the community to give them options.

And at this moment, the community is also in somewhat of peril. Solve the important items first. Ask fully qualified questions that you can participate in.

Re: Nokia, its time to release driver specs!! Open the drivers!!
 

I think we should get some marshmallows! 'Tis the season for fires anyhow, all the fireworks and dry fields.

slaapliedje

Re: Nokia, its time to release driver specs!! Open the drivers!!
 

I just felt this should be mentioned here too, so I quoted from here:

Re: Nokia, its time to release driver specs!! Open the drivers!!
 

Personally, I don't think there's a living soul here(abill_uk included) that thinks it's realistic or even possible to release the source to a community just like that. Or even after the processes suggested.

And it's is a good thing. Nokia should keep it.

Re: Pls release the source (again)
 

Well well well someone listened and acted, thankyou for that and putting the wiki right !!!.

I have always seen the problems from early on when i joined this community back in feb 2010, and for Nokia to know this community was to develop for the device they manufactured without giving them full access was from my point of view not only stupid but very wrong.

It is the same telling an engineer to populate a pcb with all components and then tell him "oh you are not allowed a soldering iron or solder !!!" rediculous in anyones eyes.

From the start this community had no choice but to reverse engineer component drivers that shouuld have been open to them right from day one, does that not tell you something????.

I am not an angry person believe it or not but i do believe strongly in getting fundermentals right and that is the reason i started the thread to get Nokia to give source, that in turn brought out a lot of truths and arguments and proved to me it was all wrong from the start, Nokia should have developed a device with 100% open component drivers before the idea of a, in this case, a Maemo community to further develop the device in question... the N900.

What should have happened that never did was the council of this community to approach Nokia and call on them to arrange with all 3rd party manufacturers to let open there components for this community, that way this community would have had a fighting chance.

Qgil from the start working with this community knowing full well the problems that occured all the way down the line and never said or did anything to sort out the problems of all the closed source, this is why i have always said it is a joke to get a community involved in further development of Maemo knowing full well the very device to be developed further had many closed components.

Essentially anyone who has a grievence is not allowed to address it direct IF it means bad talk will occur and try to protect the likes of Qgil by either banning, deleteing posts or giving infractions and what for? .... what a joke this community has turned out to be and all because of Nokia and the way they have treated this community right from the start.

The ideal situation never happened... here is the N900 that you can develop and work on, it is completely open and here is the Maemo source code to be getting along with, that way your software and hardware engineers can have everything you need for this development.

Meego is the same as in the N9 that has closed components, stskeeps ridiculed development by saying exacty what was wrong and could do nothing about it because of legal commitments.

The Meego development got so far then stopped, you need to ask yourself why this happened as it was never completed in any way or form for any device, Nokia pulled the plug and the rest is elementry as we all know the situation about Nokia.

It is a crying shame that so many developers got together on this community, realised the problems and in turn slowly left one by one untill only a handfull exist on here today.

I am old school and strongly believe in getting fundamentals right because without them it all falls apart and THAT is exactly what has happened on this community now facing closure because of Nokia who are the problem from the start for many reasons.

IF it had been all open from the start a completely different community would have existed with much success in development of both Maemo and Meego.

SO mr texrat and mr chemist, stay with your stupidity of banning and deleting and giving infractions only to take care of people like Qgil who must not be bothered or talked bad of aye !!!!.

I will watch what happens from here on and always feel sad that it could have been far far different.

Nothing angry about me only sorrow that what could have been is not.

I will add that i hold no malice whatsoever to anyone including Qgil, stskeeps that have tried in vain to accomplish something with good intentions that got dogged down by the stupidity of Nokia.

I only wish it could have been different for everyone and i only ever wanted what was right to have for development from day one and that is open source FOSS development.

The current council could actually do something here IF they go in the right direction.... go at Nokia for the right of development and get them to approach all 3rd parties to get the release of everything that is needed for this community.

Now is the right time for that as we all know the situation regarding Nokia but no doubt once again i am talking to deaf ears.

Remember... nothing ventured nothing gained.

YOU are a complete JOKE mr texrat so enjoy the pleasures of your moderating because i am sure many are laughing at you and same goes for your partner mr chemist.

When this community don't exist no more you can both ask yourself, could it have been any different ? could i have done better ?.

Have fun all, it was fun sometimes.

Re: Nokia, its time to release driver specs!! Open the drivers!!
 

This site is full of fanboys. You can't reason with fanboys, fanboyism is as per def not based on reason. Nokia has never given a rats *** for open source. Open source was just an experiment to see if they somehow could use it to get the upper hand. An experiment that went awfully wrong with the Symbian foundation, and an experiment that didn't quite cut it with Maemo.

Look at the N9. It is based on oss, but is more closed than any Symbian phone. The whole UX is closed source. If Nokia was for oss, they would at least make the UX open source. Who has been in charge of this? Otiris has. Yet he is hailed as one of the big guys on open source on this site. It's funny really. He has dine a great job with the N9, but lets be honest.

IMO the one true hero of open source somehow connected with Nokia, is stskeeps.

Myself, I'm more pragmatic. The true test is whatever works. Open source or closed source? Who cares. The Lumia 800 has a way better browser than the N9. Android is way more open source than Harmattan.

Re: Nokia, its time to release driver specs!! Open the drivers!!
 

The fanboys have been dealt a hard lesson by Nokia but i would say for sure there are more people by the day leaving Nokia now for better devices.

As for stskeeps i cant help but feel sorry for him because i think if there was any way to get true open source out of shitt Nokia he would have found it, so yes i agree with you he could have gone a lot lot further if not for Nokia.... i have argued with him no end but i still respect him and his views.

Re: Nokia, its time to release driver specs!! Open the drivers!!
 

Frankly speaking though, while it seems like Quim is the bad guy when talking about things that can't be done or open sourced, you'd be surprised how much he has orchestrated in order to do good things for open source in Nokia. The trouble is that sometimes the best things you've done is things you can't talk about in public, but just smile when you see people being happy about them.

I personally wouldn't have been doing the things I'm doing now and have been doing, without Quim's help and very early on discussions about the crazy ideas some of us people had in the community - like to brave to have a open platform for mobile devices.

This is from a platform developer POV: Things have improved immensely since back when I started on N800. A lot of Harmattan UX is actually open sourced, much more than what was ever in Fremantle. Almost scaringily too much, some would say.

Though some might argue that the applications aren't.. 1) who would want to continue on MTF-based applications 2) can't anyone with half a brain re-do these in QML in significantly shorter time than Nokia took to do them in MTF?

Re: Nokia, its time to release driver specs!! Open the drivers!!
 

Talk of the devil ! and yes i agree with you because Nokia obviously thought this community was not capable of knocking up a better OS than them.

It is all greed and stupidity with them and i only wish you could have gone further.

Re: Nokia, its time to release driver specs!! Open the drivers!!
 

SUMMON Danramos! ;)

Re: Nokia, its time to release driver specs!! Open the drivers!!
 

Well, part of the issue there might have been that when someone in community gets good enough at something, well, they got hired by Nokia or other companies in the open source ecosystem :)

But frankly: the way maemo.org is organised and is run is not very project-oriented and lends to way too much bikeshedding. Even in old Mer we chose a completely different working method than the rest of the community.

While the open source community does seem like the greatest thing ever which can accomplish everything under the sun, it all bends down to three things: time, money and focus.

Personally, these days I think the best product communities are the ones that operate like a proper open source project, but also has people from companies contributing within it. Mer has that, now, too. I've been involved with companies which function as open source communities internally as well - it's sometimes about the working method.

Even in big and known open source projects, go look closer at the actual contributors and you'll find many small to medium businesses, or even big corporations. .. and often that these contributions from small companies turn out to be paid work by the bigger ones.

If you believe you can do better than Nokia, have the community start one or more companies, work together in a proper open source way on common items, gain investments, etc. You can't easily put out actual mobile products on the market without actual $$$.

Re: Nokia, its time to release driver specs!! Open the drivers!!
 

Give me Qgil's job for a month and watch how i rattle Nokia and the idiot at the helm !.

Re: Nokia, its time to release driver specs!! Open the drivers!!
 

Wheels on the bus go round and round...

*sigh* this looping discussion has gotten so old that it isn't even mildly amusing anymore.

Re: Nokia, its time to release driver specs!! Open the drivers!!
 

I missed ths post i only just seen it now.

You have got it right again in that the community never had the right kind of teamwork going and relied upon individual expertise and workmanship.

When you have more than one coder working with likewise experiance they should join together at the least to combine efforts and i did not see any evidence of this kind of teamwork going on on here at all but please correct me if i am wrong.

Many projects were badly written and made big problems for the running of the OS and this happens simply because the work is not being run in real terms, and along with other projects, this can lead to disasterous results as we have seen so many times and ends up a nofix situation simply because the coder either did not have the source available or the expertise to implement code to a partially and sometimes critically closed in some area's OS.

My honest opinion is it is a shambles from start to finish because of lack of OS source code, you simply can neither run nor check code that is to be implemented into an OS that is closed in any way or form.

In my days of engineering when software was written it was checked for all possibilities of bad or ugly situations occuring and to do this it is a must to run within the complete OS and in this case we are talking about the Maemo OS of the N900 so how could a community of even 2 coders work without the complete source?, i was dumfounded from day one when i realised what was actually happening on here.

IF Nokia has snapped up potential developers from this commuunity then it never came to any good did it ! you only need to look at the "no fix" situation of the Maemo OS even today to work that one out so they must as you said been hauled off to other companies.

I really dont know what the situation was with your Meego project and how it was put together engineer wise but i hazard a guess in that they were all seperate coders working alone with no basic frame to code too, only to implement code for you to address as you seemed to be the only complete source of closed components.

I say this because you got so far with Meego for the N900 then it stopped so i think this is why you have stated coders were snapped up leaving you with no engineers to finish the work?.

If you read this post properly you will realise i know more than i am letting on but on here it is pointless to even talk about teamwork that just cannot be and for that reason i say little but having worked in a real software development situation i very know what is required and the strict guidelines a team has to work too from start to finish, THAT could never exist on this community as you already know and have stated.

I understand you more than you ever know and my honest opinion now of you is sorrow as i said in a previous post, the carpet was pulled from under you i am sure.

My frustrations do not have words i can say i tell you to even start to explain.

Good luck in your future whoever it may be with.

Re: Nokia, its time to release driver specs!! Open the drivers!!
 

Nah, Quim's great, it's just that messengers unavoidably tend to attract fire intended for the mothership.

Such as? I never looked, taking the "open core/proprietary UX" statements at face value, but if those were bogus and there is actually useful UX code out there people should know about it :-)

Re: Nokia, its time to release driver specs!! Open the drivers!!
 

Amusing enough for you to make a comment obviously. If there is something you don't like, just ignore it - please.

Re: Nokia, its time to release driver specs!! Open the drivers!!
 

QML components, or libmeegotouch (the things - minus the theme assets - that can make Harmattan apps) are both open source. The X11 compositor - mcompositor (hildon-desktop's smaller brother). meegotouch-home (the home screen for Harmattan). There's plenty more in terms of middleware once you start going looking, too - things like QMF (for email/messaging), ...

The main parts that *aren't* open are the plugins that do the logic for the homescreen/app switcher (newsfeed screen, launcher screen, etc) and the applications. Almost all libraries underneath those - that weren't directly UX related - are open.

Take a look on meego.gitorious.org sometime.

Specc beat me to it as i just seen your boring post so once again if you got nothing constructive to say then butt out ok because some of us are trying to get some answers to a failing community and some very serious problems.

Can you explain why this community failed beyond and after the 1.3 Maemo update because the bits that are open are not allowing any progress on the Maemo OS.

Please dont quote the CSSU because i will just laugh at you ok.

Re: Nokia, its time to release driver specs!! Open the drivers!!
 

Sorry but I'll reserve my right to express my frustration on this topic especially when the answer has been made clear several times (also in this thread) and some people refuse to get that.

To me this looks like just another rerun episode of the 'gimme the sources' -show. Most people should know by now how the episode plays out. If someone hasn't seen it, the search functionality of this forum can be accessed from the right hand side of the page. Use it and enjoy the contructivity in the threads you find :-)

Re: Nokia, its time to release driver specs!! Open the drivers!!
 

Can you please explain how your (somewhat insulting, to the people working on CSSU) question about Fremantle is at all related to my answer as to someone asking what parts of Harmattan are open source?

Re: Nokia, its time to release driver specs!! Open the drivers!!
 

Thread has run its course. Closed.