Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

What should be done and how should it be done to replace or remove one of the council if the most community would vote like that?

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Vote for someone else in next election?

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

elect an alternate Council or shadow Council?

EDIT: thanks to this post not needed anymore...
Council has listened :)

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

i think more of the option 4 councils

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

ivgalvez, if you have a list of packages without active maintainers, could you publish it or pm it to me when you will be able to (no need to rush ;)), even if it's incomplete? I think (so it's my personal oppinion and everyone else could think differently) that having this information available (maybe a wiki page?) would help finding new maintainers ;) I, for one, would be interested in picking some projects if they are interesting enough. Maybe I'm not the best coder, but I can catch up on someone else's code, to not waste words, I was trying to help with different packages when pali took over kernel power and changed the way kernel reports temperature (see e/g/ http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...&postcount=101 and http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...&postcount=150 ) and lately I've been trying to help with OpenGL ES for Lincity and recompiled hildon-desktop with some logging to help marmistrz sort out why the hell some apps rotate despite being blacklisted. So, ivgalvez, if you have such list, please let me know :)

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

easy answer: collect supporting votes, e.g in a tmo thread. As soon as the number of supporting users exceeds a certain number (e.g. the total number of valid votes in last council elections), council is supposed to organize a referendum.

/j

[edit]
usually you publish a decent letter of intent on the issue, then supporting users can "sign", like
...or some similar but better worded and thought request.

[edit2]
since Estel mentioned to me that many people might have misconceived this post, here a clarification: this post is not meant to support any riot destined at directly removing any council member. Au contraire! It describes the general procedure to introduce requests for reasonable improvements or changes to rules, as practiced in virtually all democracies. Nobody would think such a procedure as described by me would have any chance to pan out for idiotic requests like e.g. all women aren't allowed to wear any clothes in public anymore ;-D. However common sense is that common sense will kill those idiotic requests in the stage of collecting support. And in the end it's the administrative entity that will reject requests that are against any of the valid rules aka laws - that's why a request to shoot politicians never will result in executive doing that (usually), despite I might imagine such a request often finds a lot of support ;-)

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Very interesting. Could You, please, provide sources of this info (with mentioned thresholds, etc)? I have never heard about it.

For some reason, I can't shake feeling, that You've just invented it, as abuse of general referendum system, for sake of this answer. Of course, it's just *silly* me - I'm absolutely sure that You - as respected Community member - would never do such childish thing, so it must be written somewhere, in ancient wikis, founded by Maemo ancestors.

I'm really eager to read it, so I'm awaiting - impatiently - for Your answers.

/Estel

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

i tried looking for the real answer in the FAQ but didn't see it as well.
the fact that some people are looking for the proper procedure to evict an elected council member speaks something. i hope you get the message.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

i think there is always the first time

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Does that mean if he gets evicted, I get his place?

I came in 6th place :)

Haha, does that mean we can take his device from him too?

Other more qualified devs deserve it.

Edit: Someone quote me since, he has me on ignore list he won't see my post.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

don't troll more about this in this thread. This is a serious thread. Keep it clean.

Use the other troll thread. Please

http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...37#post1229437

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Hell no. You have all proven yourselves to be as bad as each other.

If anything there would have to be a vote.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

can't seem to find the "Create thread" link now :(
have to run now, will look into it in a few hours (6 to 12)

EDIT: thanks to this post not needed anymore...
Council has listened :)

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Was that question for Council? So I'm supposed to answer it, eh?
---

Sure - I got message that few individuals are looking for a way to remove volunteers from volunteering, which is quite amusing, in itself. Considering former "contributions" of those outcry'ers, I'm not surprised. Unfortunately, troll happen - I remember similar ones wanting way to remove SD69 in last cadence, or Qole before, or...

Unfortunately, some people like to spend energy on harassing and dividing - well, it's their problem. What saddens me, is how easily others can be drawn into such little wars -probably, it require much less effort to do flamewar, than contribution :(
---

Still, I'm waiting for joerg providing us sources - if such one exist (and are not "free" interpretation of referendum as whole), it would be very, very interesting to read. More, than 1/4 of TMO posts, lately, but I guess, that it's just life.

/Estel

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

@misiak,
i think your help is needed here: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=85061
maybe you can apply as section maintainer: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...8&postcount=63

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

I don't think there's any such thing like "general referendum system", and if there were I'd bet it would apply to this particular case as well.
However it's not been me who invented the general idea of a referendum, including collecting votes to trigger an official referendum. It's pretty established in a lot of constitutions, just deciding about the proper threshold is up to your sole discretion as council in duty here, since I actually think there's no hard threshold written down for maemo anywhere (yet?).

And thanks for the warm polite tone in your answer, we're used to it meanwhile ;-D

cheers
jOERG

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Can you please provide links for those those situations?

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Oh, so it was Your free interpretation, and in reality, such process doesn't exist? I'm completely surprised and shocked. I got idea for better referendum - lest decide if Nokia is going to release next Maemo device this year. After all, we have referendum system, why don't apply it for *every* problem? Let's shape and bend rules like we wan't now, who is gonna stop us!

And I'm glad, that You enjoy tone of my post. Some people were disturbed by my straight answers, so I decided to start sugar-coating them - at least ones that refer to stupid ideas or FUDs. I hope that no one is going to get sick due to overdose of sweet pink love in the air, meantime.

/Estel

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Now, that would be something. Not sure exactly what mind you, but definitely something, and definitely not good.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

deleting nonsense form quote, trying hard to keep any leftovers...
Which process doesn't exist allegedly? The process of collecting support on a signing list for a request addressed to a organizational entity? You are free to find this process described in any page you find when googling for "Volksbegehren".
Or do you refer to the process of council listening to such supported request? well, no comment on this one...
Or maybe you simply bother to explain to me what's your take of what a referendum in maemo is meant for then - you could take the opportunity to elaborate a bit about your constant accusations I'd bend any rules and invent things that are allegedly written down in a different way, buzzword "abuse of referendum system".

Honestly I can't see how and why you start *****ing at me this way. Must be you. Shocked?! WTF? Because I explained a commonly accepted well known procedure usually known as "democracy" at large, here particularly referendum? Chill, get a brain!

/j

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

msiak: Thank you very much for your offering. I'm sure you'll have the opportunity to help a LOT in the months coming.
I hope to finish round of contact with developers next week an I'll publish a list of orphaned applications looking for new parents.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

I don't really feel like this answers my questions, but thanks for pointing that out :) However, let's hope there are more experienced... administrators... out there who will be able to maintain a whole repository (and other sections). I'm more of a developer than administrator, but if there are no other volunteers (but I doubt there won't be any), I can administer too.

Thank you very much, I can't wait. The wiki page in form similar to http://wiki.maemo.org/Fremantle_closed_packages (with columns like: package name, category, really short description, programming languages and other technical stuff used, former maintainer, last package activity date, etc.) would be superb, but if we get just a list I can create a Wiki page and start filling the rest of info myself (and, let's hope, there will be others who will help with this, too)

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

as this person is not going to post anything "council or community" related anymore.... => Ignore list

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Answer is very simple - referendum is tool, which can be used to determine support in Community, for certain ideas. Because Council isn't freakin' government, and can't do or force anything, without, without other volunteers willing to participate.

Now, Your initial answer was suggesting, that there is some established way of abusing referendum for removing volunteers from volunteering, by first creating trolls heaven thread, and gaining support in it.Of course, it's not true, as it was only Your makeshift invention (and Your fail to provide sources of this "knowledge" speaks for itself).

Let alone fact, that You're giving heroine to addicts, it's just ridiculous idea, in itself. We can as good make referendum to stop fremangordon from volunteering to KP development. Sure, we have referendum system lying around, lets use it for something! I opt for stopping rapes in Darfur first, then we can make Nokia into producing Mer device.
---

To make long story short - no, people that are interested in dividing Community, must wait for new election, and put their names in hat. Of course, they can always fork community before, provide infrastructure, etc - Council isn't government, and won't *knock knock* to their doors with army, to ensure unity.

Yet, I'm absolutely sure, that no forking will happen - as it would require some *real* work, which trolls are not used nor interested to do.
---

Now, can we focus on real things? It seem, that in parallel, a discussion about existing (not imagined) procedure is going... Anyway, no matter what, You won't see more replies on this from me, as every second spend on it is wasted one.

/Estel

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Read again your own post! To me it's clearly inconsistent and self-contradicting, regarding what council is supposed to do and has power / entitlement to decide to act or not (re-)act upon.
Your classification of a not even yet existing thread as "troll heaven" is not in line with what you're supposed to do as council.


[on a sidenote: while your definition of purpose of referendum is not completely off the point*), it clearly puts too much emphasis on poll aspect while completely ignoring where from those ideas should come that you correctly state should be topic of any such referendum.
It's NOT like these are the ideas of council that are to be decided upon in referendum (unless a council member submits an idea in his role as community member) - rather it's exactly those threads you denigrated as "troll heaven" (and I provided an all but trolling suggestion on topic of such a thread in http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...7&postcount=46 "[edit1] usually you publish a decent letter of intent...") that are meant to provide input to council about which ideas to start a referendum about.
*): Actually I just noticed your definition is rather off the point in fact: a referendum is NOT a tool for council "to determine support in Community" (what you're referring to is actually a poll), it's clearly a way do get ultimately binding decisions of community about how council SHALL act on a particular issue. No matter what that particular issue might be. Now I see why you think decision about holding a referendum was in discretion of council. NO it's NOT. Council can reject a referendum the community asks for, if there are logical points in clearly defined rules that wouldn't allow to have a valid referendum. If there are no such points, the council is bound to organize a referendum for community, given there's a reasonable support for the request to have said referendum. The council _may_ start referendum on its own initiative if it feels like there's a question the community has to decide upon, but referendum usecases are not limited to that situation.
And please don't ask me again to point you to wikipages or *.gov so you could read about meaning and correct procedure of a referendum. Join #politics on IRC if you have any questions regarding that]

[edit] an additional note since your own words were "it seems easy to lure users into strange activity by posting any trolling" (owtte):
>>Now, Your initial answer was suggesting, that there is some established way of abusing referendum
incorrect
>>...for removing volunteers from volunteering
incorrect and completely made up / invented by you
>>Of course, it's not true
complete nonsense - of course it's not true since YOU invented all that
>>as it was only Your makeshift invention
No Sir, it's been YOUR invention
>>(and Your fail to provide sources of this "knowledge" speaks for itself).
Hard to even comment on that BS without using **** wording.
a) "Which process doesn't exist allegedly? The process of collecting support on a signing list for a request addressed to a organizational entity? You are free to find this process described in any page you find when googling for "Volksbegehren"." (here you are with your "source")
b) Fact is YOU seem to ignore my requests in http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...3&postcount=60, and obviously you are incapable of understanding the meaning of my words in
"I don't think there's any such thing like "general referendum system", and if there were I'd bet it would apply to this particular case as well.
However it's not been me who invented the general idea of a referendum, including collecting votes to trigger an official referendum. It's pretty established in a lot of constitutions, just deciding about the proper threshold is up to your sole discretion as council in duty here, since I actually think there's no hard threshold written down for maemo anywhere (yet?)."
YOU are failing to provide any source of that "general referendum system" concept you love to quote so much.
You're also refusing to get the semantic of "e.g." (Example Given) that's used to indicate a suggestion here. According to common sense a suggestion is quite diametrically opposite to a quote of a written fact, so to any monkey trained to read it should be clear that the words "e.g. the count of valid votes in last election" is not a quote of any written down rule.

MEH, I fail to feel like continuing commenting on every incorrect word in your posts, since there are few that aren't.
Just for the occasional reader: the rest of this Estel's post as well as others are similarly made of 99% mere BS, written simply to insult, badmouth, and denigrate others.

Nuff said
/j

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Absolutely agree, and I'm very glad that we've cleared this missunderstanding. I especially like comparision to request for shotting someone - it's exactly what I was trying to mention, as example of referendum that could gain many supporters, but would still not accepted by "authority".

Of course, in our case, Council is such authority. I'm absolutely sure, that in case pf real need of another election, coming fromCommunity, Councilors wouldn't object to put it under referendum - but, it would require strong mandate, to be even considered.

In any case, it's all theoretical discussion, cause a) our fellow trolls aren't very popular either b) we have much more important things to do, and I'm sure, that Community would kick in a** anyone wanting to divide, instead of uniting.

/Estel

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Joerg,

i know we didn't start off on a very good foot, a few weeks ago
(wasn't it because of a certain candidate to the Council, btw...(?))
nonetheless, basic poster advice, i'm sure you are aware of too... don't feed the troll
as much as it hurts to have to consider a Council's member as a troll...
to his defense, he doesn't do it with the usual purpose of the troll to start a flame war, but his posts are so ignominious that it amounts to the same, alas :(

well, as i posted elsewhere, let's consider any post made by another member of the Council then the Council Chair (Rob / SD69 now, after Council themselves decided to kick Estel out of this position...) as a personal post :|

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

All posts are personal. If the community council will talk with that voice. Use the council account.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Thanks for volunteering to help if needed. We are going to have a large need for trusted community members to administer the repos moving forward. Anyone who can help, please do so.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

How ?

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

WTF is going on with the CA? After the address database F'up no one knows if the devices are shipping or even being shipped to the right place.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

i sent you email over IRC with contact. he helped me out with DHL, you can mail and ask him.

If you have enuf administrator skills on maintaining and configuration servers and repos, any ideas or host place, you can help with that i think.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Any chance you can PM me that email address again? It has bee lost to the IRC ether.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

sent
/10 chars

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Why asking Council, if You have thread about summer device program, where Qgil answers directly (and councilors too, furthermore, You're active in mentioned thread).

As You presume, we don't have slightest idea. It turned out, that mails announcing shipment are not sent to anyone. I've expressed my concerns about it - mixed with holiday's season. If You ask me, Nokia is lucky, that no one sued them for leakage of personal data (like phone number and mail SD69 got, or address of someone else, You've seen in Your account).

We know that devices are sent, one by one - because some people received them, or got info about customs limbo (Hurrian), but as for any particular case, it seems to me, that even our Nokia partners doesn't have idea.

The best solution - for now - is to contact DHL Express periodically, and ask if they have package for Your name and address. Fortunately, they're sharing such informations even without package number (which we don't have, as Nokia failed to send mails, announcing shipment made - as mentioned earlier).

/Estel

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

There are currently no provisions for forcing a removal of Council. The only clear mechanism available is calling for a new Council election. Given the current status of things would cause more disruption than it would help (IMHO). But if the call is loud enough, it would be doable.

In all reality, this Council should (and likely will) hold it's position for a short term anyway (4.5 months vs 6) because of the delays in the election nomination and actual voting in the past cycle. Elections are typically held in September and March. While the current Council could continue on until October to do a full 6 month term, I see no reason to require that. I personally would push to keep elections on the September/March time frame unless there is a clear reason to do otherwise. (Like the formation of a separate legal entity requiring a separately elected governing body.)

As for those saying the "community has no input", I remind you that Council members are replying here, hold weekly open meetings on an open forum, and were elected in an open, well documented process. Saying you have (or had) "no input" is simply false on it's face. If what you mean instead is "you won't do everything I demand exactly as and when I demand you do it", well, welcome to life.

If you think you have what it takes to make things happen, then run for Council, or get involved in projects that will move the community in the way you desire it to move. There are lots of things that need to get done and not enough people helping. One thing we have plenty of right now is people complaining and expressing their opinion on how they think others should do things. If you believe that strongly in something, pick up a task and do something to actually help the community instead of posting/whining here.

(And this isn't directed at ZogG, who has done such things, but to everyone bitterly complaining about things beyond the point of usefulness.)

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Can you clarify this last italicized part please, in light of this [1] email to the Community mailing list I find it confusing.

Do the current Council intend to hold an election in September (as you seem to prefer personally), or due to the impending formation of a separate legal entity, does it intend to serve the full term?



[1]http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-community/2012-July/005552.html

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

It needs to be kept in mind that, although it is intended for there to be a migration, for some period of time there would be two separate entities. There will be a Community Council responsible for maemo.org, and some sort of a Board responsible for the new entity. It is not as though the latter will suddenly spring to life at the exact instant that the former goes dead.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

I appreciate there might be an overlap, but I think my point is valid. Please don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to force an early election or anything, I'm only seeking clarity.

There is the important work you have of overseeing the transition, and this mention of a shorter term just clouded the issue a little. I don't actually see a problem with a 6 month term at all.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

To clarify:

It is my intention to urge toward a new Council election taking place in September instead of October/November unless doing so could compromise the formation or stability of the community, or a newly formed entity for the community. Said another way: I will err toward early elections unless there's a really good reason to not do so.

Understand though, this is my personal commitment on this topic. By the letter of the law, the current Council Chair (which is now me) must decide when to hold the next election, which must be within 6 months of the end of the last election. The main reasons for the last Council term extending past 6 months was due to procedural issues extending the election (see 11-1 in link above). I am hopeful that will not be repeated this cycle.