Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

One thing to consider in moving the community is supplementing the forum with a Q&A site such as stackexchange which is a much better format for the vast majority of users seeking answers to their questions compared to a forum that is more discussion based where answers can get lost in the noise.

There is an open source alternative software to stackexchange:OSQA

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

How much of that would you say is utilised during peak (regular, not DDOS) times?

Wouldn't that be much easier on an open source platform though? A community-developed VB plug-in seems like a non-starter if every volunteer developer has to shell out $195 just for being able to play.

Hm, that would effectively make migration practically impossible so perhaps the rest is moot :-/

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

We can always migrate posts content, without migrating users (as content was already publicized in... well, public.). At least in EU it works and is legal.

/Estel

// Edit

Of course, it would be only about content from users, that are not interested in giving permission (can't be pinged, or not willing to).

// Edit 2

In worse situation, we may do something like our own "wayback machine", i.e. big archive of "snapshot" from content of threads presented already, ending with link to actual, "live" discussion in future forum.

Not most convenient, but there are tools to do so via batch, and it's better than nothing.

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

In the bottom left of this and all tmo pages it says all content cc isn't that enough for migration?

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

Good catch, qwazix. Also, users agree to TMO rules upon registering, so it's possible that this "all content creative common" is covering us.

By the way, I agree with lma, that migration for Open forum engine is a must.

/Estel

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

As long it has the Thanks! button, I'm okay with that. :)

(Got used quite a bit to the current one though. :))

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

Hm, yeah, there are a couple of issues at hand: content (ie public posts), and user data. If we can't migrate the latter then all we have is a read-only archive.

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

Well, quick&dirty system for handling auto-asking for allowance - if it's really needed - could be set-up. This could be even beneficial - during transfer, we would drop accounts of MIA/uninterested people (i.e, those that fail to permit their accoutns migration during, lets say, 5 or 6 months deadline).

But, considering that *everything* is CC, it seems to apply for visible user profiles to. As for rest, we're not keeping any personal data, like address or real name (unless someone provided it to TMO, agreeing to CC content), so I think it's really less of an issue, that looked initially.

/Estel

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

We need to speed this up. Nokia keeps increasing the angle of attack with every news release.

So the more news about Nokia that comes out, the closer they are to implosion. 4th quarter income warning may be the final item to do them in. So we need to be out of here in 4-5 months...

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

i hope i can help :o

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

Though we can't transfer data first and then ask permission after the fact. One way to do it would be to keep the old system running and set up some mechanism with which a user could initiate transfer from that to the new one. But then again, if we can keep the old system running why not, you know, just keep it running?

Any public data may be fair game, but some data, for instance email addresses, PMs and various other bits depending on profile privacy setting, was given in confidence. I don't think Nokia lawyers will allow that data to be transferred elsewhere. We may only care for email addresses, but they are kinda important...

As for the content itself, the current terms say "you license and grant Nokia and its affiliates and sub- licensees (or warrant that the owner of such rights has expressly granted) a non-exclusive, royalty-free and free of charge, perpetual, worldwide, irrevocable, and fully sublicensable right to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, communicate to the public, make available, publish" ((emphasis mine) which seems fine to me (disclaimer: IANAL). But what about users registered / content posted before this became talk.maemo.org? Have they agreed to similar terms (I haven't kept them unfortunately) or could someone appear out of the blue and say we are violating their rights?

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

@Reggie, you said earlier:

The implication is that you are stepping down. I don't recall anyone else asking so just for clarity are you interested in continuing in your current role?

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

Post #20 in this very thread suggests not :-(

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

OFF TOPIC
i guess just like me ,everyone will be confused and sad enough while being afraid of losing some great geeks over here and this lovely forum.I dont know whoever is controlling this maemo domain and if it is nokia then whats actually they are trying to prove ?people could easily advertise their products and new stuff here but what the **** is wrong with these monkeys ?
anyway its been about 2 years since i am keeping my lovely N900 and it is frigging faster ,newer and totally outlandish.And really without you guys ,without this forum it was never possible .And tell you what i grabbed iphone4s,sgs2,cheap chinese with ICS installed but really nothing really can be compared with this monster N900.They are so fking boring.
just saw gidzz today with this new game that he has managed to throw for our geeky N900,look at the brilliant minds over here ,look at the latest projects coming with every new day .
maemeemo,meecloy,nicolai's front camera app,ammyt's work on ICS release ,last but not the least,look at taixzo with his bloody damn good saera program.Where else we could have such brilliant people ?
i might have missed loads of names but truly every single person in this community means something .Never mind !some words were meant to be poked out in sucha dire situation,Sighs !
On topic
so if the decision has really made about the future of maemo.org,how the nokia is responding to the current situation ? Has any one asked about this from qgil? And if maemo.org is really not going to be funded after 2012 ,how the council is gonna respond to that ? beside moving the whole database from maemo.org to some other open source project site ,why not talk to any of nokians about the issue,we might able to buy a bit more time out of the equation ?
I would still recommend to be ready for whole thing in case of any prior,sudden alarmed warning .I hope we get through this easily !

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

I can't say for sure. There are too much uncertainties now on what the plan is for the community and where it is heading. If it intends to merge with some other community, or maybe gets relabeled, I might not be interested since things can be quite complex. If that happens, maybe the current TMO can just be archived at talk.maemo.org and launch a new forum where ever the new site will be -- it will be simpler.

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

Keep in mind there are over 60,000 registered members. We obviously want an archive of postings and to reserve user names. People interested in migrating and keeping their same username are probably going to have to take some affirmative action to do so. We will want to use the email address to verify identity. Cooperation from Nokia seems necessary to do that.

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

imo: Kate and I are already working on this and following. In fact this thread exists because we raised the topic in the first place.

One comment NOT as Nokia dude but as someone that has gone through forum migrations before, as user and as admin: I really don't think you want to migrate this big forum (in all senses) into something different. It's a lot of work to migrate, and a lot more work to whoever will be administering and fine tuning it in the future.

Unless other complicated pieces laying around, the forum is actually a simple piece. It lives in its own server, it can point to any domain and it can probably be sustainable with the right dose of ads, just like it was before. Reggie could decide the personal involvement he wants to keep in terms of time dedicated and whether he would still want to handle the hosting invoices (and ads revenue) or not. In any case, changing ownership while keeping the same infrastructure is peanuts compared with a whole migration.

You would also avoid the serious risk of seeing how a big % of users never makes it to the new forum. I have seen too many cases of communities never making it through a infra migration like this.

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

Let's see the lists of users in more detail:

- The forum has its own list, and actually I believe Nokia has little to do with it.
- Garage and Bugs have their own lists but do you need these services forward?
- The static website relies on the Garage users, but wouldn't be just simpler to have a new CMS and create whatever is needed? Maybe just a wiki, as many community projects do these days?
- About the wiki you could just copy whatever makes sense to keep, and we good with it. Or have a database dump of the content and export it to a new MediaWiki, starting with new users there.
- Users karma would be perhaps lost, but do you mind?

The part that looks more complex is the Autobuilder + Downloads. If a new infra is created based on OBS then perhaps there is a way to transfer all the existing packages and restart the list of owners? Or perhaps just a login prompt with acceptance of new Terms and Conditions for moving your data to a new database is enough. I'm sure Nemein can come with a proposal for this.

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

Who "owns" (ie is responsible for and can give access to it) that data though?

Maybe it's time to finally implement an SSO infrastructure like what was being discussed and worked on for ages but never happened :-b

In some form or other, definitely, source control and bug trackers for community projects are a must. Though perhaps something more tightly integrated and easier to manage than gforge, eg trac or redmine, along the lines of fedorahosted.org?

I think a dump would be the best starting point. Even if we don't go with mediawiki it should be able to be imported into most other wiki engines with relatively little effort.

Not at all IMO, good riddance :-)

Caveat: if I understand correctly (and I'd love to be wrong about this) OBS can't support anything earlier than Fremantle at the moment. So we need a plan B for those platforms, but that's a much larger discussion than package ownership.

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

Reggie owns the forum and all its data.

Sure, it is great to have bug tracker and what not. However, if you have to pay your own bills and admin your own servers and you don't have your back covered like e.g. the Fedora Project... then you have a problem. You probably want to cut as slim as possible. There are plenty of services for open source development out there, freely available and admin-free.

Someone proposed asking OSU OSL. Is a good idea, at least to know how they feel about it.

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

IMHO it's essential for any software development project.

In general true. Can you comment on the amount of server and network resources garage is using? I suspect (entirely speculatively of course) that it's peanuts compared to eg the builder or the apt repositories.

As for admins, I'm fairly sure we can find enough BOFHs in this community. I'm certainly willing provided that the terms are not too onerous and the result scratches at least some of my itches (read: if support for Diablo is dropped, my interest goes to zero).

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

We have to take care for packages where source and/or
bugtracker link to those garage projects. If we ever move
maemo.org to some other place and maintainers of those
package aren't active anymore I volunteer to maintain
orphaned packages.

nicolai

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

Nicolai, that would be a huge work, thanks for volunteering.

In any case, we will need distribution or section maintainers, in opossition to single package mantainers.

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

Thanks for reminding me about it. You did emphasize that before, when you offered moving the itT forum to maemo.org, so thanks for holding to that promise.

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

OBS is actually already well underway, and a good chunk of the work for Fremantle (using SB2) has been done, but still needs some love. We also still need help with documenting (one volunteer so far) and testing (couple of those). Also, if others have experience in OBS config/migration, as noted there are still issues with Diablo, Chinook, and the like, which could use work.

There are meetings every Monday on IRC (FreeNode, #maemo-meeting @15:00UTC). The OBS wiki page has details and minutes of past meetings, as well as full logs for those that want to join in and/or see where things are.

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

Wonko: could you please update first post pointing to Wiki page and adding links to latest Council meeting minutes (this was a discussed topic) and include reminder about Council meetings every Friday at 18:00 UTC?

I'm on the go with limited connection so I don't have possibility to add links at this moment.

Thank you.

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

Is there a mailing list, or other asynchronous communication medium, for those of us who are occupied with unrelated day jobs at that time?

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

I think Quim's point is that do "we" (as in the maemo community) run our own garage/bugs type system, or instead let individual developers choose to use sourceforge or github or whatever? Personally, I think we should just let people use external hosts for this. Although it's less friendly for individuals (they'll have to do research on what is best and setup more accounts etc.) it's a lot less work for maemo community server admins.

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

I think we have to resign from the garage.maemo.org project hosting, there are better alternatives (e.g. sf.net, github, gitorious). Anyone can choose what he likes. A bugs engine for all the projects is nice, but it's a no must-be.

An autobuilder (or counterpart) is a must-be. Why? Imagine you have gcc 4.6 on your scratchbox, from devel. You compile... and kaboom! The app doesn't run as gcc on device is outdated.

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

I respectfully disagree. For one thing, users shouldn't suddenly have to set up a gazillion third-party accounts in order to participate. Having cohesion in the community infrastructure is important. If "anyone can chose what he likes", where do we draw the line? Why not dump the forum for example as well, surely an argument can be made that it's also very expensive to run and there are better alternatives elsewhere. Why not also dump extras, it eats a lot of bandwidth after all and people can just set up their own repositories on various free hosting services around.

Shouldn't we find out how much such a thing would cost? It may well be that we can't afford to host it (in which case we probably can't afford to host the repositories and autobuilder so we may as well give up), but throwing it out without consideration would be a shame.

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

There is mainly the wiki page and IRC, as right now most of those involved are able to (and prefer to) interact via IRC. If that changed, I'm sure using one of the community mailing lists (probably devel) would work.

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

Outside hosting does not necessarily conflict with consistency. Qt project moved to gitorious without losing it's coherency as a project or a community. We could discuss with one of thos providers and move tactically there.

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

That's a single software project though, while maemo.org is composed of literally hundreds.

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

I agree with this, but there's nothing to say you can't have cohesion while using a public services. There are plenty of communities on SourceForge that have tons of unity, even across multiple projects. The "all or nothing" approach is just as unhealthy as the "scatter wherever we can" approach, IMHO.

I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise. I think the suggestions coming in are reasonable ones about which tools have viable/cheaper/free alternatives. I don't think anyone is advocating that we discard those services here on a whim without even looking at a cost/benefit factor.

Before we can evaluate costs though, we need to know which tools have alternatives, and which tools are not available elsewhere. For example: It doesn't make sense to choose hosting repos over OBS based on cost if we can't get OBS outside of our own funding, but could get repos for free somewhere. We must separate needs from wants, just as much as we need to evaluate costs, before we can decide which parts to fund with the limited budget we'll wind up having.

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

i think this is an important aspect to consider, careful planing sort'a thing...
what's the point setting up Paypal accounts & all, possibly collecting considerable amounts (which members of this community are certainly able & willing to muster) to eventually have to admit... nope, sorry, can't afford it :'(
and then all those horrendous fees Paypal taxes under the pretense of exchanges and then keeping the money for ages for themselves to heavy interests on it :mad:

no no, no go
certainly not if it all ends up being too expensive

like a saying goes... nothing but expenses :eek:

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

do we need repos at all?
i mean, the packages ARE FOSS, after all?
this is what torrent was designed for, in the 1st place, no?

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

Do you have a version of apt-get on your N900 that supports getting packages from torrent streams? I don't.

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

Google is your friend, my friend...
(hint: look for the 5DVD set entry...)

EDIT: and i'm not even using that f###ing deb package management on my home systems... long live RPM >¦-)

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

once this is setup locally, it is merely a matter of releasing a new torrent with the same directory structure to release updates.
torrent file could be called cssu-20120629-0102.torrent or something...
use your imagination, for crying out loud :mad:

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

Which is all fine and dandy for an experienced user. Not so easy to setup for someone with limited skills that may not even have another system to start up with. And no, you can't just use your N900, because to do that you need to install apps to do BitTor and the like, which means you need a repo to get those from to start with. (Chicken/egg situation.)

Those of us with a technical background don't need repos at all, they're just a nice convenience. I've run Linux since pre 1.0 days, and am not unfamiliar with life before package managers.

But this project isn't for 4 or 5 people hacking things in their dorm rooms, it's for a community. For a community, we will need repos. Whether those are hosted by Nokia, or us, or Debian.org, or some other entity is what's being asked; the question is where or how, not if.