Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

In that they awarded themselves the devices? I would state that there was in effect a game of collusionary prisoners dilemma. Despite not being able to vote for themselves, by being able to vote for each other their award was assured.

In the past the council have been issued devices by Nokia. This time it should have been announced that the devices were being issued to the council leaving the rest for the CA. Although, do you honestly believe there would have been no dissent in this case?

The devices came with the proviso from Nokia that the council were to choose the recipients. If the council were not allowed to enter the awards then how could they possibly be awarded one? It seems you are arguing that the council should have been non-eligible for a community award?

Being a Councillor is very time consuming and will be very tome consuming considering what tasks they are now facing. Time is precious. To plow your personal off time into something for nothing else than the satisfaction of being involved is quite remarkable. Perhaps you are a student or unemployed? I cannot say perhaps you do not understand how precious free time is around a full time job.

The mailing list has been the forum for council discussion since forever. Maybe some 5 years or so. As Woody has stated, he cannot cram it down your throats any harder. Unless you have been a member for less than a month, you KNEW about the community awards. If you did not then you are very much into the community.

Why would it be reversed? The councillors spent over 5 hours coming up with that list. 5 hours. That is about 1 entire day of offtime for me. For me that has to include family time, motorbike time, eating time and personal time. 5 hours. At minimum wage in the UK that is £35 or 44 euro. Furthermore the group of persons who were dis-agreeing with the results were more concerned with condemning the procedure.

Good for Woody.

We have established that they are deserving of a device, while it is clear they appeared to throw their lot in with everyone else their being awarded was assured. There was no doubt about that. The time to voice concern was before the competition. Do you want a council member to come to this thread and say 'yes I knew I would win a device as the other members of the council would win'. The only mistake I see here is them labelling their entries as entries and not just claiming their awards. However hindsight is 20/20.

Your use of the pronoun is inappropriate. They did not win an award. Simple as that. Perhaps when you see that they are not owed a device you will come to accept that is no injustice in this point.

This was not a coding competition. Just because they are devs does not make them super eligible right away. In fact I would like to think this competition had a slight bias towards non-coders, the people who can never win the various coding competitions.

INABT not winning does seem a little controversial. His apparent ace in the hole being the inception program that he helped write, is an important stepping stone to conquering aegis.

eyes in my opinion is not so controversial. Would you want a CA for lumiaman if he managed to port WP7 to the N9? Would that be contributing to the community? In fact ammyt is more involved in the community WRT nitroid than eyes. This is not to belittle eyes achievements. It would take me a year or two to get to the level required to port android to a new device, especially one as well documented as the maemos

Time to stop beating around the bush. You cannot make blanket statements like this in support of your argument. Who are you claiming does not deserve a device?

Here you are relying on the 'they need a device in order to develop their projects' argument. AFAIK both INABT and eyes have N9s. This will allow them to develop for the ONLY production Harmattan device in existence. No, I do not except that the N950 keyboard and some magic unnameable features make it a superior development device for Harmattan. Also, SSH works fine. My old embedded systems lecturer used to tell us the only thing you need to debug code is an LED. He was mostly right. This is a moot point. The N950s status as a development device is now void considering the N9 is available.

The real point that you are not prepared to admit here (and I do not blame you, no one wants to be judged as materialistic.) is that they WANT an N950 because of what it is. It is a freaking N950. One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.

This doesn’t even make any sense. It is insulting to award devices for things people have done as oppose to things they claim they will do?

I can only assume you are referring to 2 posts. 1 by myself and 1 by FMG. My own post was a joke, a dig, a troll spoon at the outrage and butthurt that was going down in that thread. Also, why should I develop for Harmattan? These are community awards not kits supplied in exchange for development. If you want to complain about that, look up the first list of submissions for the N950 device program. Those devices are on loan meaning Nokia can recall them and re-distribute them to appropriate developers as need be. Have you approached Nokia about getting a development N950? The fact is however you do not need an N950 for development for Harmattan you need an N9. This renders all arguments about dev-kit void.

As for FMG well, I think he has earned his place in maemo Valhalla and can pretty much say whatever the F he wants. Whether you agree with it or not is non-consequential. Also, awards for past achievements.

Do you honestly believe that supplying two devices that do not add to eyes and INABT ability to code for a platform will in any way influence what happens in 6 months? No. What happens in 6 months is going to be decided to how hard the council work and to a lesser extent how much of YOUR offtime you are prepared to donate.

It is unfair to award members of the community for all their time and effort over the years? Endless little things are irrelevant in comparison to two giant hacks?(ask your wife!) Cheers buddy.

Why not? 'conflict if interest' is not an answer. Have they not earned them? What decision precluded them from allocating the devices to themselves?

Why? What makes them less deserving of an award? what makes SD69 so deserving?

There was no evasion. The answer was stated ad-nausiem. The only evasion was not listing the merits and demerits of the entrants. Something I am glad off. If your ego cannot accept not winning a prize how are you going to react to the internal pain that comes with a list of your failings?

Do not be so naive; apologies need to come from both sides.

While the behaviour by some of the council members was inappropriate both sides are as guilty as each other. You do not come into an argument swinging your dick about and not expect to get punched in the nuts.

Do not worry though, behaviours have been noted, words shall be had.

And you are wondering why people are not taking you seriously? These are guys who are volunteers, not sleazebag speakeasy politicians. They signed up for the job before the CA was announced.

You are right, that was a weak argument and it has strengthened my doubts about the greed of the council.

…ad-nausiem

welcome to the 'mentalist traceur club'!

Albeit in a very biased fashion.

The council are not the ones who will not let this thread die.

The way you are speaking is as if the competition was SOOO corrupt and so fixed that it was not even worth the time of some people to enter as they had no chance of winning anyway.
Also accusations of the ‘old boys club’ are utter nonsense. Everyone knows the old boys got serviced in the first N950 device program.
If YOU could resolve this, without consequence, without answering to anyone. What would you do?

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

That's exactly the point I was trying to make in my previous posts - and I think this is the solution for the future - distinguish rewarding council with devices from CA, and nobody will be able to question that.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

I do not think that councilors ever got free devices automatically from Nokia. What has happened though is that councilors often participate in discounted device programs or been selected in other programs (by Karma or other merits).

Because, as has been discussed, councilors are councilors usually because of their merits...

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Very little of what is being discussed in this thread will make a blind bit of difference to the majority of TMO members.

Maemo/Fremantle/Meego/Harmattan are all pretty much screwed by Nokia from here on, so what I (and I presume most members) would most appreciate is less in-fighting and more effort trying to keep this forum and our various devices ALIVE. For as long as possible.

So try and forget all this b*tching and try to concentrate on some sort of future - for all of us.

Thank you

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Can anyone think of an example of another honored group giving itself valuable awards in this way? You might have to look in Russia or China, or maybe Zimbabwe.

I personally would have appointed some people deemed objective observers to give the awards -- Texrat comes to mind.

Since the current crowd are so oblivious to the obvious, I guess it is time to abandon hope, as I previously said.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

That's why i expected at least to see the discussion on the meeting, but it made it worse, and if before at least apology would be somehow enuf. Now i don't see any way to make it up, even if they'll give their devices to other people, i still would understand it's from pressure. And it's just hard to get that those people can make a decision for whole community.


vi__, i think 5 hours and their time is really big contribute, but they are still councils for a month, while there are people that worked for maemo even before harmattan, and only with harmattan but for almost year, so you can't say anything, as again it was stated that it's for past deeds and not time they'll spend judging. You can't ride both horses, telling that rule is A here, but in this situation -A is good too.

Edit: And btw few of contributors(we knwo the names) didn't get n950 on first time, some just jumped in after harmattan was out, but they contributed lately a lot, for example inception is the first door for CSSU in my eyes, i'm impressed wiith things MohammadAG did with it, and things other devs would do with it's power. And i don't think Nokia would give him any price or devkit. And it's not coding competition material.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

The Councillor did not come down in the last rain. They have been here for longer than 1 year I can tell you.

So your point about 1 set of rules for 1 and another for the rest is invalid. They have past deeds to attribute their award to going back beyond being members of the council.

The argument 'they won because they are in the council' does not mean they were awarded because they are simply in the council. They are in the council because they have been heavily involved in the past.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

A lot of people were here for past year and few more than 2 years =)

As it was mentioned 5/7 election do not prove anything.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Yes, that is what is being said. Them only being in the council for 1 month is inconsequential. To get into the council they had to already prove themselves.

What is your point?

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

We are on same noat, i just want out "leaders" in this hard situation to act as they should be. I think small things matters more that big, as it's a real exam for a person, and i know person that even in not that important situation is an example, he would be an example in any situation. And we don't try to b*tch and cry here, it's important to be fair and honest in hard times and future is written in history, if people wouldn't believe in council at some point they wouldn't donate for hosting if needed. All the good and an example should be made by leaders not to profit but for future of community, while here the conflict of interests exactly between personal benefit and community.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

So are you implying that because the councilors awarded themselves a device they are not to be trusted. Are you suggesting that people will be less inclined to pledge money/web space etc as the councilors might just make a break for el'mexico with the loot?

Consider how absurd this argument is please.

So all your words boil down to:

Regardless of whether they deserved to win or not, it was not fair for them to award themselves an award because they were the judges. This is despite being made the judges by Nokia.

Is it less fair of them to enter for the awards that they were to give out than to remove their opportunity to win by not allowing them to enter?

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

let's do the math, there were 7 people in elections, while AFAIK one didnt provide too much info about himself. So even if only 1 person would be good enuf(not a fact, just an example) you still needed to get 4 more right? so it's obv that you had to choose the less of bad to collect other 4. Or let's put it as math question for children.

You have 7 fruits, 6 apples and 1 pear. Pear is tasty and sweet, while apples are not ready and bitter. You need to pick up 5 to make the most sweet salad you can. How many % of sweetness you can get?

Or like it was said, in Russia even after politics fixed the votes, they still had a lot of votes, as there were not that much options anyway. if you A is better than B it doesn't mean it suits right, it's just suit better than A =)

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Not like that, but in some point it takes off most motivation and trust and yes less people would be just less willing to donate or support community, as people who would ask it would be council.

Edit: lemme quote myself :

If once personal benefit was chosen it might be chosen once more. As old proverb says : A friend in need is a friend indeed

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

So you are saying there was only 1 'good' candidate and the rest are fodder?

If you feel that the council is of such a low quality and it is of importance to you why did you not run for office yourself? Why are you not taking part in the process, making your voice heard on the mailing list, IRC, TMO, etc?

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Can't speak for another person, but I removed my own name due to wanting candidates that would be a great fit for the job.

This did not happen it seems.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

There is no conflict of interests, because it never was a 'code of conduct' announced!
Nokia gave the devices away, and they never said the judges should not receive any of them.
The council members have all applied for a device, because they are part of the very community.They are not some sort of 'elder statesmen' having retired and living from the benefits of their rich contributions here!

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

when its will end? Please? I just think about maemo.org, where it gonna be next year, i dont give a f**k about this award, lets move on and please to all Fremantle developer, give harmattan more love, its on same boat, dying on the maemo ship!!

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

true no one own here anyone anything, but what than makes us community and need in council?

For other arguments, i think it was explained several times in two threads, but it seems people are stuck on repeating the same excuses again and again in loop.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

I'm not oblivious, then or now.

When it started, the awards were going to be decided by Estel and Woody because they were not going to request awards:

http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...2&postcount=20

That was fine with me and I said so. But it changed after that, including that Estel later changed his mind and decided to request an award.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

But after you saw that it's already 4 of 5 in there ,could you at least and re think that it can't work and should be decided between you who would give up device or other optins or maybe take prev council as judges or other well-known stars of maemo to do it?

There is always an option. And we judge not you but choice, as we are community and you represent us.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Thanks for pointing this out. Seems like the conflict of interest is right here.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Apparently, Estel did not request an award until the last day of the nomination period and I didn't know that until the process for selecting awards had already begun. The thought didn't occur to me then, but even if it had, there was not enough time at that point to bring in other judges.

I still think everyone who received an award deserved it.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Thanks SD69. The community has got its answers.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

End of thread then...???

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

first reasonable and respectful answer, why didn't you speak up in last council meeting?

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Isn't this like saying someone at Nokia telling Elop President and CEO that he is not entitled to receive and test devices from nokia? I can't see any leader without the possibility to have access to a device or product for which he is working with. Its crucial!

Low level manager: "Elop, you are not allowed to use any nokia phone pre-release! Infact, you have to buy your own devices after release from now on if you want to try out a nokia phone."
Elop: "But I am the CEO, you cant tell me what to do!"
Low level manager: "Sure, you are the CEO. But you can test the system/devices with this powerpoint presentation of some basic use cases from design of the system and make the bushiness decision from that. I I can send you an early persentation of Meego."
Elop: "Ok, send over the snapshots rightway."
Low level manager: "Will do, BOSS!"
Elop: "Ok, now, Lets open the Powerpoint presentation of Meego Let's see how good Meego is for us. Ohh double tap to unluck the screen. very good. Very nice indeed! Great first slide! let's look at slide two...WTF! only one slide? This OS is UNACCEPTABLE! It's a BURNING PLATFORM without ecosystem. It's just a lock screen and nothing more. UNACCEPTABLE!"

and so that was the reason nokia left meego for windows.

True Story!

Do you want our council members without a phone to make strange decisions around the platform?.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Thanks to SD69 for pointing this out.
I also didnt pay attention to these circumstances, and deeply apologizes to those who at least had some truth in their statements.
Like SD69 I still believe devices were handed to people who does deserve it.
I think this may be a topic for next council meeting, at least how to avoid such a situation in the future.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

At the last council meeting, I didn't fully appreciate that Estel had never said, before nominating himself on the last day possible, that he had changed his mind and was going to request an award.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Appointed by whom? The council that can't be trusted? The community at large (in which case how is it different from the council)?

And what if the appointed observers asked the community if they could also apply, got a mostly positive response and ended up awarding devices to some of themselves, how would that be any different?

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

So, after reading SD69's statement... if one would be a bit snappy; he could now conclude that:
The most vocal opponent to people questioning the whole process/story, being at the same time the person that launched most personal attacks against said questioners, this person showed the most questionable/arguable behavior?

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Not true, which is quite funny as per se, considering who posted it :) No offense taken, Rob, but please, ask before spreading FUD like this.

I've declared, that I'll submit for CA in April - even before being elected for Councilor - and never changed my mind about that. If in doubt, go and read mailing list.

/Estel

// Edit

ZogG, gerbrick, etc - Honestly, I *don't* care if You like my tone, or not. Whole point is about You failing to acknowledge, that everything was discussed and approved for almost 2 months.

People like ZogG applied for device, accepting rules and never saying single bad word about it - then, after losing, they come here and start posting demagogic things. It's especially true for ZogG, who tries to say that "he don't need to read mailing list, TMO, news and IRC for 2 months", yet he applied for Community Award - so he was aware of rules and participants, for sure.

It's pathetic, ridiculous and miserable, and I'm *not* going to sugar-coat it You may cover Your words in demagogic sentences, that [b]*pretend*[/'b] to be polite or "adult", but it doesn't change merit - it's unjustified, childlish outcry of either CA losers, or people who found themselves in un-meritocratic side of fence, and don't have guts to excuse now, for accusing too early.

Again - I don't care if people like ZogG trust me or not. Don't like my work as Councilor? Don't vote for me for next period, *if* I'm going to throw my name in hat. Like my work as Councilor, but don't like me, and it's more important for You? do the same, fair enough. No matter what, I'll continue to volunteer work for the Community, with except, that the latter scenario will give me more free time, and less demands to re-phrase answer, that were given zillion of times already.
---

For ones that still don't get it:

1. We think, that throwing Council names for CA, instead of granting devices for Councilor automatically, was more fair.

2. We did discussed it well with Community, and - except for geneven's one liner - no one ever said bad word about it, for almost two months

3. Paople like e-yes, notabigtruck or ZogG applied for devices, knew rules and other participants. They haven't protested, since final results. After losing, they started - more (ZogG) or less (y-yes angry one-liner)disguised in long, demagogic posts - outcry/

4. We think that it's ridiculous, yet, we've given detailed answers, including reference links to mailing lists, archival posts, announcements, etc.

5. People like ZogG stand in position, that they don't need to participate in Community channels, yet, they *know* that Councilors applying for CA is bad thing, so they outcry even more. People like gerbrick think that they haven't got answers, despite fact, that answers were posted more than 20 times, already.

Conclusion:
Is it my, or Council problem? Definitely not.

I'm done with this thread, and with any similar off-spring. Have fun pretending, that You're acting like adults.

/Estel

// Edit

Because some type of western people think, that writing FU in 5 sentences, make You more "adult"... ;)

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Didn't like nieldk's response as he actually repeated from sudden of nowhere, though he had chance to talk before, and he used to insult. And than again even in apology:
he still blame those, as they say "~4". But i thought it is pointless as at least one council talked honestly (i hope).

But now Estel gives it another turn, when i think it's better you decide between each other first why and who and when and than straight the story up.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Why not say what you mean straight up if you planning to say it anyway? . The discussion would more correct and faster.

Re: [Council] Community Council Meeting (June 22, 2012)
 

I don't think it's advocating political correctness to ask council members to avoid inflammatory verbiage.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

What on earth does it take to make you happy?
I obviously cant say it clear enough!
You asked for an apology, I apologized, on a personal level once I became aware of an actual issue!
Insult, I dont think I insulted anyone, at least I have taken care NOT to.
But, what is the request from you REALLY, that you get a device?

Now, let me know from the rest of you guys!

1 should I resign from council?
2 Do you request that I forward my device?
3 all of the above

lets get some feedback on this, before friday this week, and I promise your voices will be heard, at least from me.

Whatever the outcome, I am not a coward that will leave this community to die, and I will stay and fight for its survival.

Re: [Council] Community Council Meeting (June 22, 2012)
 

Again, I ask: What should I have done? Quim and 6 of the other 7 nominees were all good with this solution, as were many past Council on the lists and TMO where this was discussed? What was my option? Withdraw my nomination for Council? I considered it.

And no, Gerbick, being Council doesn't make me some type of superior super-being that suddenly knows solutions to all things. I'm asking because I honestly don't see a solution to this. Especially not one that I, as a single Council member, can bring into being. Everyone seems to think that one Council member can single-highhandedly stop the entire community, and Nokia, and the rest of Council from doing something they're set on doing. So excuse me if I see the reply of "I won't comment" or "You should know what to do" as a cop-out.

First off... I (nor anyone) said anything about an ignore list. I think you're mixing things in your mind.

Second, did you bother to even read the logs, vs the 2 line excerpt Aries edited out of it? Did you not see the smiley face? Did you not get that I was making a joke?

And lets be clear here: I didn't call him a name, or insult him in any way. I simply stated a *FACT* that he said he was no longer using his N9, and that I would find it hard to lead a group based on a device while no longer using that device.

Was that a huge personal attack? One worth making a huge stink over? Was I calling out people by name as not being "worthy" of an award? I'd call that an attack. Or like calling people thieves, and a competition rigged, after being just fine with the rules when they were being formed when running for Council? I'd call that a personal attack.

I've yet to "personally attack" someone. All I've done is point out when others have been being rude. Don't think so? Please do prove me wrong. Go back and find somewhere where I've attacked someone personally and quote it here. You'll be hard pressed to find it. You'll find instead me telling people to stop being insulting, and for that, I'm damned.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

1. No, a councelier is selected for the term and I expect not less unless personal reasons.
2. No, if that is happening. Same should go for all winners. That would be ridiculous.
3. Please no! Someone like me or worse can be asked to take your place.

To all in this thread:
What are you doing to the guys in the Council. It should be fun to be a part of the community on all levels. I honestly don't understand why you all blow this thing out of proportion. It's amaze me. Stunning!

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

It's enuf to give a little bit about that problem, and not act like child. i dont appreciate the tone talked to me and about that problem. I would accept it from the begging and from truly meaning it. But now? I'll just leave you alone, and as planned to be in read mode only here.
And before i'll add personal: I not only think that some people dont deserve any price, but even to be a council and the log after proves it. And no it wouldn't work that way to now say that we do it coz we were in list. And i never thought i'll get i wrote even in that words in submition. And it's obv than other people who speaked up more logical to understand by that they'll not get the phone as it would be also not ethic.
EDIT: for more readable log — http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23mae...06-26T21:40:10

Re: [Council] Community Council Meeting (June 22, 2012)
 

And this quote from log? I think you was at the meeting, was you? Or it was so normal that you didn't pay attention?

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

I've looked and haven't found any such mail.

I know this post on May 28 where you and Woody were going to decide the awards:
http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...2&postcount=20

And I know this post on May 28 by you indicating submitting councilors (Me, Ivan and Niel) were stepping down:
http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...9&postcount=24

So as of May 28 you were one of two deciding the awards because you had not announced an intention to submit for an award (at least that's the way these posts indicate). And then you didn't nominate yourself soon after May 28, or during the subsequent debate about how to decide the awards, or say anything to indicate that you had submitted or that you would submit. I've also reviewed the council meeting logs of June 8 and June 15, and you didn't say anything then either.

Edit: link to mail on May 24 (after council election) has been provided which implies that Estel will apply for device

http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...9&postcount=24