Re: Man arrested for stealing (wifi) broadband
 

That big dog will protect your house while your gone.

That gun will be stolen when your gone.

So, if your gonna have a gun, get a big dog to protect it :cool:

Re: Man arrested for stealing (wifi) broadband
 

Why would I need that? The gun is on my hip with a CCP in my wallet.

Re: Man arrested for stealing (wifi) broadband
 

Don't even need a ccp here.

Re: Man arrested for stealing (wifi) broadband
 

How about arresting an owner of the open broadband for incitement to commit a crime? Let's go crazy all the way...

Re: Man arrested for stealing (wifi) broadband
 

it is an odd state of affairs that most people would find completely unreasonable in any other field.

The cable to my neighbours phone passes over the top of the corner of my garden, and they haven't made any attempt to protect it, so I guess I can use it too

Well, in the UK it is not theft*, it is copyright violation, but that still doesn't make it any less wrong.

*Here that means removing and illegally depriving something from its recognised owner, I don't know what the US definition is.

Re: Man arrested for stealing (wifi) broadband
 

Thanks for prodding me to clarify, tabletrat. I meant "Theft of Intellectual Property", which in the case of digital media is the same as copyright violation.

Re: Man arrested for stealing (wifi) broadband
 

Well, no but it is a matter of degrees. As previous examples have said, if you leave your car outside the house unlocked and someone nicks it then yes, they have committed a crime, but your insurance company won't pay you the full value of the car as you didn't take reasonable steps to secure it.

If you have a metered service and someone has leeched all your bandwidth which you didn't take steps to protect the you are still going to have to pay for that bandwidth. It doesn't make the other person any more right though.

Really wireless networks should be made so that by default they are protected and to have them unprotected requires more specialist knowledge to setup.

Re: Man arrested for stealing (wifi) broadband
 

Apologize if the posts have moved on from the flashlight analogy, as I see people are discussing this issue in more technical terms (Iball, where do you even get those law posts?)

However, I just wanted to give my 2 cents on unauthorized Wifi usage as being an extremely minor offence (i'm just assuming email checking, like what the UK guy was arrested for, and not hacking or torrents/illegal downloads), that you could argue the following:

1. Intensity of the intrusion is low
In the flashlight example (one neighbor turns on this light inside his house, the glow outside akin to Wifi, and another flashes one a flashlight into the Wifi owner's house, akin to accessing the Wifi by sending a Wifi signal from his wifi adapter), this 2 way communication has very similar levels of intensity, and if the flashlight is flashed into someones eyes, or invokes suspicious behavior, I can see how this is not acceptable.
However in actuality, Wifi access (for emails) accesses a very small amount of bandwidth (negligible in some cases if the access line >3Mbps), which we cannot say its hardly causing any trauma. I liken this 2 way communication like an echo of a radio blaring, which the radio sound returns back to the radio owner at a fraction of the original amplitude.

2. Wifi connections extend beyond the owner's property
Analogies of leaving the door open and stealing a TV in an extreme exaggeration compared to an actual wifi access. Again, wifi access is a transfer of Ghz waves that does not cause monetary damage, and does not include actual trespassing. If we really wanted to use an analogy (which does not really illustrate a wifi access, but shows no trespassing), lets say that if you found a penny in the street, would it be okay for you to pocket it?

I think lets get away from using analogies and stick to the actual wifi access, as analogies tend to over simplify, leading to exaggeration of the actual issue.

Re: Man arrested for stealing (wifi) broadband
 

Depends on whether you mean legally or morally. I don't think that morally anyone would have a problem with you keeping it, but at what point does it become morally unacceptable, £1*, £5, £20, £50, plain brown bag full of notes?

Unfortunately laws have to be written, and they either get written with woolly language like 'acceptable' and 'reasonable', or they get an absolute limit, and in the world of IT, any absolute figure is going to look silly in a few years.
Or you just write 'you can't do this', and although most people will get away with it, if to some policeman that doesn't like the look of you, or being in the wrong place at the wrong time for you to get done.

It is really hard to write a law saying 'you can't intrude into someones network, unless you want to just check your email, and it is only briefly or in passing, and only if they have it open'



* Obviously finding a $1 where I am would be unlikely and also completely unhelpful! ** Luckily with the exchange rate now, just multiply by 2.
** actually thinking about it, not so useless, I am in the states for a 2 week holiday in september!

Re: Man arrested for stealing (wifi) broadband
 

The penny example IS a bad analogy, but that doesn't ipso facto discredit certain other analogies made.

There is significant different between picking up a lost/discarded coin on the street and intentionally connecting to another person's paid service. Perhaps not seeing that induces a person to misunderstand the relevant analogies?

Using analogies to shed light on a subject CAN be very helpful, but only so long as the intended audience can grasp them. When people scoff at relevant analogies and/or pose irrelevant analogies of their own, that tends to indicate a fundamental lack of insight into the actual issue. That's very difficult to overcome, especially if sheer argumentive stubbornness is the cause of the impasse.

Re: Man arrested for stealing (wifi) broadband
 

The penny on the street had a disclaimer..it was not used to illustrate unauthorized wifi usage..it was used to illustrate proximity of the offence, per the disclaimer on the original posting. Readers are advised to read the whole posting, as the previous sentences provides the context for proximity.

If the penny was inside a house, undoubtedly it would be a serious offence..hence similar analogies of having a open door, open car door with keys etc..

However, the penny, or a wifi connection is usually encountered outside of the owner's (penny or wifi) property...so now the offence has a different context.

Couple proximity with low intensity (I used a penny to illustrate this, versus 1 GBP or 1 million dollars), the offence of checking emails of another person's wifi connection is of an extremely low magnitude.

Re: Man arrested for stealing (wifi) broadband
 

There is a larger context in play here, and that is the topic itself... when combined with your oft-mentioned distaste for analogies and subsequent employment thereof it muddies your message. On one hand you want to separate the penny analogy from the wifi usage, and in the next breath you say they're connected. It isn't simply a matter of anyone "not reading" your entire post or ignoring a narrow context... it's about noticing that you often want to have an argument both ways at the same time, Liam1, and when pinned on a point try to squirm out by saying you're not saying what you're saying... then proceed to say it again.

And checking another person's email in ANY context is by no means "low magnitude". As iBall has been saying, see if a position like that makes it past the FBI or similar law enforcement.

But just to be clear: I said the penny analogy falls flat because, regardless of which way you intended to use it, proximity of a penny vis-a-vis one's domicile is just not parallel with proximity of wifi. One hard reason is the fact that, as already stated, it is impractical to expect users to contain their wifi signals (the way a penny can be contained). There are other reasons (some mentioned in this thread), and I'm sure if you actually thought about it, you'd see them. You're a smart guy, just a little misguided it seems.

Re: Man arrested for stealing (wifi) broadband
 

I really didn't want to use any analogies, but as some posters really like it, the penny analogy would be a better fit to show proximity and magnitude..but note that it is not perfect

A wifi access for $50 a month, translates to 0.002 cents a second. So if I checked my OWN email on a high speed access line, an email download (text only) would translate to a 2 second download, which is about 0.004 cents. However, lets assume that I take a 500 seconds (or 8 minutes), that will translate to 1 penny of free email for me.

Huh, who said anything about checking another person's email?

Thank you for your guidance..

Re: Man arrested for stealing (wifi) broadband
 

I use aircrack wherever i go, unless there is an open access point.

Re: Man arrested for stealing (wifi) broadband
 

who cares! This is a stupid thread. People will always use open spots if one is available and they need to connect to the internet - simple as that. Lock your network if you don't want people on it. Stupid as* people. If I don't lock my network and I find someone on it I can't be mad because I left it open. People will always use open internet - why the hell wouldn't you - its just bandwidth left open to share in the first place. Stupid article. Now if someone were hacking into the computers sniffing info, then thats a different story, but just to check your mail... o my gosh - BIG F**KIN deal. Close your network if you are going to complain about it.

Re: Man arrested for stealing (wifi) broadband
 

You did, of course, or so it appears:

And thank you for the sarcasm. ;)

Eh, has it been beaten to death yet? Lord knows I tried :p

Re: Man arrested for stealing (wifi) broadband
 

I thought about this way back and now to see someone arrested seems that there is a law properly in place for this? or not?

If we cannot see Satan the devil, does it mean he does not exist misleading the mids of many?

If WI Fi signals were large metal beams pushing out through our neighbors homes randomly at any given time would that mean trespassing on another persons property, amongst other potentially harmful effects.
Yes what we need to do is arrest the man for using his neighbors metal beam extending thorough his living room as a coat rack!

The fact is there is free airspace that has no "rules" for wireless devices except unless you have a F16 fighter jet flying around North Korea..then air is no longer free anymore especially when you mysteriously get shot down..

If a 16 year old boy kills his sister due to an accident or failed to take precautions when playing around, does he not still go to jail? or is it because his sisters fault for she should have yelled louder when the pain was to excessive?

So 10 years later I now have cancer because it is now proved that linksys, d-link wireless routers produce a dangerous thing called radio waves that can now be determined to be a factor in contributing to worldwide caner like cell phones. Did my neighbor potentially just slowly kill me like that little 16 year old boy? maybe I didn't yell load enough when the pain was overcoming my body?

Enough of this madness soon to end,

There needs to be new laws in place for this sort of thing to protect the consumer and the producer.
Example: As long as im in my house a frequency freely distributed should give the user a choice before the range is extended to them. (contract service agreement ..we "radio station" will push the green button to send you direct signal of 97.3 EASY ROCK) if not you do not get served and you do not get nice tunes or that future cancer.

Wireless routers:
Should have a feature were its not uncontrolled as they are now. They should go from your router and find your devices directly, not broadcasting (and it does not need to be seen in your" available wireless connections" to know its there "Satan")

So to sum things up technically:

My neighbor had just plugged in his brand spanking new router and is excited and ready for some fun! blah I don't need to read the manual. "16year old boy playing with sister"
Shoots out his wireless signal to the whole neighborhood. "Trespassing neighbors property"
Then 5,10,20 years down the road neighbor(s) now has cancer because of wireless signals. "most likely linksys,d-link and others fault or maybe his own cordless phone who knows"

and.. its the neighbors fault to go to jail for eating his neighbors apples that fall freely over to his lawn because the branches come over to his side of the fence.

Cut your branches, put security on your firewall or don't complain your neighbors are eating your apples that fall on his property! until there is a law in place for it. It is not like there is no way to stop someone from getting your internet access.. its call password and encryption protection! Uproot your tree and plant away from there lawn.. sigh yes you have to read the manual!

New laws need to be address for this but sadly until then these types of things will happen till then..

Re: Man arrested for stealing (wifi) broadband
 

Yup, when posts like that come in at this point, it's obvious that it's a lost cause. :D

As much as I think you have a fundamental point, good luck with that. The FCC hath spoken.

Re: Man arrested for stealing (wifi) broadband
 

Oh pot, give it a rest already, your right as usual and we are all not worthy.

Re: Man arrested for stealing (wifi) broadband
 

Your right, sadly that is the case.:rolleyes:

Re: Man arrested for stealing (wifi) broadband
 

Hah..I see the issue, no wonder this caught the attention of our senior member. Spelling issue, "of" should be spelled "off"...



Penguinbait, who's pot? Be careful with your spelling, a senior member might read "your right" not as "you're right", but infer that you are talking about your right hand...

I will also rest my case, as you can never win these discussions..

Re: Man arrested for stealing (wifi) broadband
 

A couple of points are sticking out in my mind and I don't think they've been addressed by others, yet:

The FCC and accepting interference: if I could demonstrate that my neighbour's WiFi spoiled my soufflé, I'd still have grounds under the common law to seek damages. The FCC may be a regulator, but they aren't the only authority. If they were, after all, we could just call unauthorized use of an open access point "interference" and say that you have to live with it.

Permission: Do I have permission to view this Web site? I've cavalierly assumed that an open port is an invitation to send requests for pages. Since the intent of the law is not to criminalize Web browsing, it must be the case that sending a request for a connection on port 80 constitutes a request for permission, and an accepted connection implies that permission has been granted. You can argue that accepting the TCP/IP connection is merely an invitation to make a further request at the HTTP level, but it boils down to the same thing. Similarly, then, I think that it's reasonable to suppose that a WiFi access point is fair game if it is accessible by customary means as set out within the standard that defines the protocol, and if no other illegal, immoral, or fattening behaviour is necessary to effect the connection. If the connection is secured, even laughably poorly, the presumption has to be that you're not welcome.

Re: Man arrested for stealing (wifi) broadband
 

Yeah, the points have been addressed. One applauded, one soundly debunked. Your mission, should you decide to accept it: figure out which is which!

This thread should self-destruct in 5 seconds. It really should. Hell, 3 even.

Re: Man arrested for stealing (wifi) broadband
 

Everybody is missing the point, you aren't just connecting to "the internet"! You're connecting to someone's private home network. Unless you go up and knock on the door, assuming you even know where the wireless is even coming from, and ask them if it's okay to use, or it's named "free open wifi" you're breaking the law. Just because it's open doesn't mean you can just hop on. They might not know any better, most don't.

Re: Man arrested for stealing (wifi) broadband
 

That's always the case, though. There is no "the Internet" -- it's a bunch of networks, and they all belong to somebody, and they're interconnected under various terms, some commercial, some co-operative. We don't really notice this because, guess what, we just fling packets without phoning each other up first to ask for permission. Either we're all breaking various laws, or permission is given automatically.

Well, hang on, if I go up to their door, I'm on their property, am I not? How is knocking on the door better than remotely requesting a WiFi connection and DHCP from an automated system that advertises its availability?

Are you sure? Maybe it got that name by accident. And who gave you permission to intercept transmissions containing the SSID in the first place?

Ignorance is now an excuse? Excellent. I didn't know about the law, then. :confused:

Re: Man arrested for stealing (wifi) broadband
 

Boo-hoo-hoo.... ;( cry about it. we're not missing any point - no one cares. Knock on the door - funny. Lock your network or stop complaining - read the manual and if you can't read maybe you shouldn't have the internet or a wireless router in the first place. :) internet should just die anyway, everyone is getting to lazy. when last have you been to the library instead of sitting on your fat as* on wikipedia - more to life than internet convenience. :) read a book instead of an e-book on your $400 IT. HAHA! Losers.

Re: Man arrested for stealing (wifi) broadband
 

If you don't f*ing secure your wireless access points then it's assume you want it open to the public...why else would you do that. So there's no breaking the law here. Just friendly people who wants to share their internet connections.

Re: Man arrested for stealing (wifi) broadband
 

Where did you ever see that my network is open? Wikipeda is a joke. So are e-books. This thread, just like many others I've seen just puts it back into perspective. The world is full of a bunch of freeloading scum sucking thieves. Maybe if you looked at my profile, you'd see that I probably know more about networking and wireless networking than you do. ****ing *****. Some one close this thread, it's bringing down the IQ of the forum.

Re: Man arrested for stealing (wifi) broadband
 

yes all mighty one, king of all networks and wireless routers. we do as you say and bow down. haha - loser (barry99705 - more like barrycock99705) let me guess, you've never downloaded anything in your life that was copyright protected. haha - i bet you are a fat black hat that eats potato chips while watching downloaded episodes of 24 from torrentleech or piratebay. :)

Re: Man arrested for stealing (wifi) broadband
 

Whatever. No, I don't steal music/movies. 24 is probably one of the lamest shows on tv now. Not that it matters. I don't watch tv.

Re: Man arrested for stealing (wifi) broadband
 

And what makes you an expert on ebooks, by the way? Nobel prize in literature, perhaps?

Re: Man arrested for stealing (wifi) broadband
 

earl00, you'd do well to read the administrator's warning about your sort of behavior.

And from all appearances, Barry is running intellectual circles around you, so you might want to rethink your approach anyway.

Re: Man arrested for stealing (wifi) broadband
 

NokNok, read the laws. They ARE being broke, which was the original point.