Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

It often comes to my mind that only the big brother follows us: it takes a few hours or days to get the latest contents of talk.maemo.org indexed by Google. But if I publish something at an ordinary site, it may take several weeks until I can google its contents. So, in that meaning we are extraordinary :D

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Minutes

https://www.google.gr/search?q=It%20...rs%20or%20days

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Dome sweet dome? These domes might be a nice solution to quickly customize and build keyboards?

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

I agree with the overall dome-shape, as has been mentioned by others in this thread, but I would also like to add an important fact for fast typing: The "springyness" has to be soft to allow typing fast on small keys! It is nicer if there is a sense of click when one hits the bottom, but for fast typing it is actually more important that little force is required to depress the key into the contact state. Even the N900 keyboard would have been better if it were softer than it is.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Other thing I had some thoughts about:

Should the keyboard cover the total width of the phone? Like this one:\
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_E-HBtGdxmL...prada-ii-1.jpg

Or would it be better to leave a substantial space on the sides?
http://cdn.ubergizmo.com/photos/2010...oid-qwerty.jpg

It's a matter of size of the keys vs. distance your thumbs need to travel and have to bend to reach the outer en inner keys.

At the moment I think I'd rather have a keyboard that is not the total width!

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

With some usability studies, it must be possible to figure out the perfect size for a thumb-keyboard. If the phone is smaller than that, the keyboard should fill as much space as possible, otherwise it shouldn't.

Perhaps we can find some free-standing thumb keyboards that have been made without size constraints? The sizes of those will probably tell what the ideal size should be.

If there is space beside the keyboard, an analog joystick seems like a good choice for the space, i.e. an input device that the screen and keyboard can't fulfill by themselves.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

This might be irrelevant since that layout is probably impractical on the Jolla's OH, but the best QUERTY keyboard I have ever used was this one:

http://cdn2.gsmarena.com/vv/pics/han.../hst600_01.jpg

(I have never held the vertical QUERTY Blackberrys so cannot pass any judgment there but I am happy to believe they are similar.)

One could easily operate it with the thumb of the hand holding the phone while walking, and keeping the other hand free for e.g. holding the shopping bags etc.The N900 has a good keyboard but there is no way to manage the same feat: I have to stop and use both hands to use it.

I believe this is the inherent problem with all horizontal designs. The keyboard is too wide and the vertical distance too short to provide any kind of one-handed support, regardless of how much space you leave between the key and the edge. If anything, since a two-hand operation is required anyway, I would vote for using the whole space.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

To keep everyone happy, let's make a compromise solution:
Put the essential keys on a 10-column Qwerty keyboard (key columns 2 ...11). Fill the "marginal key columns" nr 1 and 12 with additional keys which are used less frequently. Among them can be Tabulator, Esc, Alt. Perhaps also the Sym key can be in the 1st or 12th key column (it would not be needed for English texts, because Sym would be used mainly with "multitapping" for "foreign" characters, such as the á à ä â ª å æ characters of the A key. But keys like Fn, Shift, Ctrl and Enter should be in the essential key area of key columns 2 ... 11. And no CAPS LOCK key, please (that key is too close to the Shift key on full-size keyboards). There would be less than 8 marginal keys on a 4-row keyboard, because part of the left-hand margin of a sliding keyboard would be needed for the 2nd hole, thru which you can shoot pictures with the sliding keyboard inserted. To get an idea of that special construction, please see what I wrote to http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...27#post1379527
Please note that I wrote this without knowing the exact distance of the camera lens from the top of Jolla phone.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Ehhhhhhh can you make a sketch?

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

No, not yet. First we should know the distance of the camera lens from the top of the Jolla phone. I have not followed actively which of the appearance pictures is the latest. But I've understood that the lens is now in the middle of the top (on the left side when you look at the sreen and turn the phone to landscape orientation). We should also know whether the keymat of the sliding keyboard (its visible part) makes 50% or 60% or more of the height of the phone in landscape orientation. Perhaps it is best not to draw any sketch yet, so please let your imagination fly and put forward your own layout.

But I can disguise something: the layout can be almost like this, but with the "marginal kets" partly where you now see indicator lights and partly on the 13th key column. And there would not be 13 key columns but 10 essential key columns and 2 or 4 marginal key columns.
http://i.imgur.com/jMYGijl.jpg
On the biggest phones (those with 5" or bigger screens, or with a camera in the middle of the the phone), it may be best to build a split Qwerty keyboard, like I explain in the "Phone, keyboard and camera grip put together" thread, but then we're not talking about an OH, but an integrated phone + keyboard device, which would make camera grips obsolete. An omitted OH is often the best OH :rolleyes:

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Okay I'm having some issues with this whole keyboard-design stuff. Let me explain why:

<Bold statement>No one has ever made a good phone keyboard!</Bold statement> Literally every qwerty-phone has a different keyboard design, which means there a people designing each time.

As I am looking through al the qwerty phones, I am looking whether I like the design, the layout, the size, the colors, the materials, etc. I know what I like and I know what I don't like.

Example 1: Nokia E7
Lots op people suggest this keyboard. It's boring! Grey on grey, not round, not square and not squirqle. In between.. Function buttons above the function key, which is not handy. Number keys across the top key, which makes typing in someons phone number less practical then just using the touchscreen!
http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/image...-photos_tb.jpg

Example 2: Galaxy S Relay
Same boring shape, but black on grey/metal which is a slight improvement. Dedicated number keys, so no function-key problems. The 'A' has somehow fused with the TAB key, which I find strange, because if they didn't make the A and P key bigger and ditched the microphone button (why is it there?!), this would be avoided. Still, boring keyboard.
http://images.mobiledia.com/phones/s...relay-4g-4.jpg

Example 3: Motorola Photon
Less boring. Dedicated FN, TAB, Shift and CAPSLOCK (?). Better so far. But, exclamation mark on the top left? Not convienent if the FN in on the bottom left! And what it lack in not being boring, it compensates by being plane old ugly.
http://androidandme.com/wp-content/u...oton-q-630.jpg

Example 4: HTC touch pro
Okay, clean and black! Except for that one green button... Really?! 5 rows of buttons, but the @ and ! are still in the top left. It is just the next plastic keyboard! But now it is black. It look cheap, it feels cheap, just bad design!
http://ic.tweakimg.net/ext/i/product.../9804/8405.jpg

What I am looking for is a keyboard that is clean. No weird key-layout. Not looking like a mess. Not too little keys, so you don't have to press 2 function keys for a symbol. Not too many keys, so that is doesn't look like a huge computer keyboard.

Example 5: Nokia 5730
Nice color around the keyboard, clean and black. Two FN keys, which makes the ! in the top-left not awkward, NICE! But what is that totally weird vertical bar in the middle of the keyboard?! It is ugly and out of place! Was the spacebar 2mm too narrow?!
http://www.gsminfo.nl/nieuwsmedia/im..._01_LowRes.jpg

Example 6: iPhone5Mod magnetic keyboard
This is much and much better! Thin, metal, white between the keys. It is beautiful! But why have a power button on your keyboard and why had is stolen the place of the backspace?? Spacebar not in the middle? Personal choice for everyone. Not usable.
http://www.poderpda.com/wp-content/u...phone5mod.jpeg

Example 7: Eten M810
WOW! This is awesome! But is got terrible reviews, terrible keyboard. Spacebar should be twice as large. I love the backlit slits though!
http://i-cdn.phonearena.com/images/r...-Design-16.jpg

Example 8: BB Porsche design
This is also very nice! No weird colors, very very clean! But not suitable as a landscape keyboard, spacing the keys will look totally weird! And I cannot make these buttons at home :p
http://cdn.slashgear.com/wp-content/..._2-580x419.jpg

Example 9: The almighty E90, "The Communicator"
This keyboard has everything! But half of the keyboard is clean and black. The other half is littered with blue icons...
http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/image...gsm_e90_01.jpg
Just kidding, this is a 2007 machine.... Brought out in the iPhone-year. Welcome to the furure they said... Sigh.

This is why the need for this thread is great! Each one has big big design flaws, which could have been easily prevented! No innovation has took place with the phone keyboard, absolutely none.

We will have to design and build our own I guess, but which features can be combined to make something good? That look good (and not boring!!), is practical and feels good!

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Hi dirkvl,

I have not yet had the chance to use a phone with hardware keyboard, but was interested in n900, e7 or Lauta from the start. I am neither good at mechanical design... So here are just some though about was I would like to have, with not much experience. My goal is to use onscreen keyboard for one handed portrait usage with small things, and switch to hardware landscape keyboard to benefit from the whole screen surface for content display, and have easier access to special keys, like the ":", "TAB" or "ESC" button for ssh and vi command line. Also should allow to type easily numbers, mail/websites/ip addresses, and if possible parentheses and brackets (can still be a 2 key combination for these).

Nokia E7:
What I always liked about E7 is the mechanism and integration with the device. When folded it is hard to see that it is not a N8, as there is not a clear separation between phone and keyboard. And when pulled, the inclination take the role of a "stand" to put it on a table and simply watch it.

Motorola Photon / HTC touch pro:
As all other 5 lines keyboard, this allow to have numbers without key combinations. Still no "ESC" key ?

Nokia 5730:
I don't see the second function key ? But yeah, it would allow to reach left keys while holding function key with right thumb, and right keys with left thumb on FN key. Would be a lot more ergonomic.

iPhone5Mod magnetic keyboard:
agree that the spacebar must be in the center, to be reachable by both thumbs.

Eten M810:
Not the design I prefer, but backlight is a real feature.

The almighty E90, "The Communicator"
I really like this one. Could be made better, but overall, it seems everything is here.
The pad is way better than the distinct arrows key that are where they can on other designs. For shortcuts that uses CTRL or ALT + arrow (like to navigate per word in text editor), it is better to keep the pad on the right side.

Finally, using my phone a lot as a music player, it would be convenient to have on the side (to be availlable even when keyboard is folded) at least 2 keys "Play/Pause", and "Next", so that they can be reach directly in the pocket, whithout having to get it out to change song, or start/stop it.

I will try to summarize all this:
- design so that the phone look as a single piece when the keyboard is folded
- allow the keyboard to be used as a stand for the phone
- 5 rows to provide direct access to all letters + numbers
- space in the middle
- all special keys : control, meta, shift, 2 x function (one on each side), escape (absolutely needed and usually not availlable)
- pad in place of arrow keys
- music controls on the side "play/pause" + "next". Could also add a camera button for direct access?
- some kind of backlight. keys name backlight is the top for usage, key contour backlight is the top for the look. Power consumption has to be checked here to choose the more efficient way to do it.
- if there is a caps lock, or num lock (FN lock?) function, then leds should be provided to show it

about how to make the keys : Silicon rubber ? hard plastic keys on a springy button ?
And how to make the foldable mechanism : straight like n900 ? inclined like E7 as it could double as a stand ?

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

key layout as E7, N950 & all
maybe ESC & Tab keys, if not physical at least directly accessible via SYM / Fn / whatever (now NE arrow) but...
long hold of SYM / Fn / whatever (now NE arrow) pops up a virtual keyboard which, obviously, can be entirely customized.

and it could still add a couple of different physical designs for e.g. Arabic (?) vs Asiatic vs. Cyrillic vs. Latin vs. ???
guess Asiatic would need a couple more "localizations".
Arabic maybe too?

N810 kbd looked pretty good too; drop 2nd Ctrl for a ESC & all done :D

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Here is my feeling about hwkb I was able to use :

n810 > E7 > N950 > BB10 alphac

N810 / ... keyboard design and configuration
 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:N810-open.jpg
The layout of the N810 keyboard is quite acceptable. AFAIR the Chr key has the same function as the Sym key of later models. But to make the keyboard symmetrical, I'd remove the 5-way rocker and the Menu button on the left, and put 4 arrow keys where N810 has the - key and below the : - + keys. The ESC, Tab, Shift, Sym, Fn and Ctrl keys can be dispersed on the bottom row of keys and in an extra key column on the left-thumb side. That makes 12 key columns in total. The straight sliding mechanism of N810 is a useful reference for the design of an OH keyboard. But perhaps the keyboard should slide out a bit more, perhaps about 65% of its total height.

Re: N810 / ... keyboard design and configuration
 

This is what I mean, besides that it looks cheap and boring, it has a far from perfect key arrangement. There a no current keyboards IMO that are remotely usable as a starting design.

If we would start from scratch, with no constraints, how would the keys be arranged? What would it look like?

Re: N810 / ... keyboard design and configuration
 

Would you specify what exactly makes keyboards boring, in general?
I'm asking, because the most fancy keyboard designs tend to be impractical in use.
The least boring but yet practical keyboards that I've seen are split keyboards. For example, this keyboard of Nokia E70 is relatively practical (considering how small it is): http://newlaunches.com/archives/noki...c_approval.php. I mention it here only as a reference of arts design, and not for the OH of Jolla.

Re: N810 / ... keyboard design and configuration
 

The N810's keyboard is grey-on-grey, made entirely out of plastic, semi-glossy, the lettering is dark-grey, not backlit, the blue is different but does not stand out. I cannot find a single argument why people would find this keyboard 'nice-looking' or 'innovating' or 'fresh'. It is really really boring.

Precisely, the Eten M810 got terrible reviews on its keyboard, but looks nice IMO! I think this problem comes from a very simple thing:
Each keyboard is designed to be nice OR practical!
In case of the N810, a powerful mini-computer, they were not building a 'design-phone' e.g. function over form.
In case of the Eten, they hired some crazy designer who made a beautiful keyboard, but without any knowledge of ergonomics or practicality, it turned out it wasn't usable.

So, here arises a problem: I will not settle for a bad keyboard! Neither should anyone else! Why would we?? How can we do what no phone manufacturer has done before; design a practical ánd stunning keyboard?? It should not be difficult!

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

yeah, forgot that... backlit
preferably a backlit that is always ON when the keyboard is extended
hate it when N900's kbd goes "dark" 'cuz the light sensor feels it might be bright enough :mad:
the white marking on black keys is definitely the best readable.

Re: N810 / ... keyboard design and configuration
 

why problem?
this is the whole idea behind the Other Half... to each her / his own

• back color? 5 bucks & done. well. probably a little more for all the "theme changing stuff"
• fancy looking keybaord, just to "socialize"? this is probably what most 3rd party will go for, for obvious reasons.
• a technically well designed complete keyboard? unless Jolla makes it themselves in the line of N9{0;5}0, i doubt we'll get it :( :confused:

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

how about this?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...e_MID_M528.jpg

number layout (dial pad) strikes me as most annoying feature - one of those "socializing" example :mad:.
easy to fix :D

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

And perhaps the backlight should be provided by RGB LEDs, so that it can follow the color tone from the current Sailfish 'ambiance' ;)

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Now we are talking! It could follow the phone like you said, or total disco mode!
http://cf2.thefancy.com/default/2682...1378028fa.jpeg

Re: N810 / ... keyboard design and configuration
 

Here is the result of playing some time with gimp and starting from the design of a full QWERTY desktop layout (from Gnome3 layout manager), and trying to arrange it to something that can be embedded.

http://i.imgur.com/x3hjeF8.png

All caracters for the keys are shown here, as I started from gnome layout manager where the goal is to see all key functions.
In a final design, we should make the main key text bigger and translucent (for backlight), and secondary functions could be shown as smaller text, and could not be backligthed.

The directional pad should something as found on the E90 or N810, and in the middle is the "enter" key. This gives all the buttons we need for typing text and navigating (page up/down, home, end).

There is also both "Delete" and "backspace", as it is handy for typing text, and lot of software need the delete key to delete something (for exemple spreasheet editor usually have different function for both).

The "Compose Level 3" key is the "Fn" key. It is availlable on both sides, as are shift and control, to ease making shortcuts. There is also the "Alt", "Super" (a.k.a. the "Windows" key) and Escape keys.

From the 105 keys desktop keyboard, only the "insert", "print", "scroll lock", "pause", "Menu" (the key that give the drop down menu, like mouse right click), F1-F12 and numerical pad are not availlable.

Then I tried to style the layout to get the idea behind the backlighted keyboard of the M810 (keys outline on 2 sides) and also the key names.
I am not good at design, so I know these pictures are not really good looking, but it gives the idea (working from bitmaps and not vector file don't help either...)

Here with a blue backlight :
http://i.imgur.com/hqgq76p.png

And then changing the backlight to orange to match the case color :
http://i.imgur.com/rhwbqoL.png

There is a lot of keys there, but as the phone is a bit bigger than an E7, it could fit. Some keys could also be made a bit smaller (line the bottom row height). I still haven't shown the media player buttons on the side, but imagine they are there !

What do you think (except that I should learn to use gimp :D )?
Would the keys not be too small ? In that case what keys should we throw out ?

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Wow, this looks quite intimidating! I like that is fills the entire space, imagine this with all possible backlight colors! :D

The double-size backspace and big spacebar are nice too! Arrow keys needs some getting used to. They take in a lot of space, is this proportionate to how much you would use it? Arrow keys on N900 were definitely too small!

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Yes, I tried to fit as much as possible, to avoid needing too many key combination to type things. This is the main problem I have with on screen keyboard : constantly switching from the letters layout, to numbers, to another set of special characters, to simply type a mail address. Here everything is there, with maybe a shift or function key to hold simultaneously. It also have easy access to symbols used for programming so that you can easily edit a bunch of qml directly on the phone ;).
For the fact that it uses all the space, we have to check if it is feasible (due to the camera lense and the slide mechanism), and ergonomic (keys on the side might not be that easy to reach, but as they are not the most used, It should be ok ?).

For the size, I don't really know... I started with nine buttons the same size as the others, and then tried to display them in the idea of the N810. I kept the size during the process, but made the "Enter" button a bit larger than the others.
This is only just a draft, and all this can be tuned a lot better, but it is not easy to see what is too large or too small when designing it on a computer screen. Monday (I have no printer at home...), I will try to print it real scale to see if it is ok.
If you have ideas about how to improve it in the meantime (move/remove/add keys, change size...), I can adjust it.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

This keyboard has a layout which is perhaps the best 4-row keyboard that I've seen:
- correct number of keys for the language-localizing of most European languages
- well balanced compromise between the size of keys and the available space
http://talk.maemo.org/attachment.php...1&d=1382428962

But I would make some changes to it:

• Move the four arrow keys and the number keys (of the Fn layer") one step to the left.
  Reason: the frequently pressed arrow keys are in the lower right-hand corner, near the palm bottom, which is the most difficult area of the keyboard. By moving the arrow keys to the left their use can be made easier.
• Move the Enter key one step lower (to the Alt key of the photo).
  Reason: the two keys on the right-hand side of the L key are essential for the localizing for most European languages. By moving the Enter key away, the localizing can be made easier. For the localizing will be needed also 1 to 3 more keys, depending on the language. Those keys are found near the ArrowUp key by replacing some punctuation characters with the additional characters of each language.

There are innumerable other reasons which affect the layout design. I don't explain them here, but go straight to my suggestion of how the layout of the above photo could be changed and localized:

• Size and shape of keys: like in the photo
• 1st approximation fo the number of keys: like in the photo, but moved 1 key width to the left.
• Labels on the keys:

Esc Q W E R T Y U I O P Backspace
Tab A S D F G H J K L ; '
⌂⌂⌂ Z X C V B N M / ↑ = Enter
Alt Fn Sym , . Space - ← ↓ → Ctrl
In the above elementary text-format diagram the bottom row is misaligned from what it would be - see the photo: the ↑ key would be above the ↓ key. The "Shift arrow" is written in the diagram as ⌂⌂⌂, in order to align better the key columns. All the keys are supposed to have the same size, except the two keys wide Spacebar, like in the photo. The widths of the bottom-row keys can be adjusted later, if need be.
The Ctrl key is on the right-hand side, in order to make it easy to make the most common shortcuts: Ctrl + A, Z, X, C, V, B.
Those keys which in the above diagram have a red character are the 'language-localizable keys'; those keys where go the Ö Ä Ü ß keys of the German Qwertz keyboard, for example:
Esc Q W E R T Z U I O P Backspace
Tab A S D F G H J K L Ö Ä
⌂⌂⌂ Y X C V B N M Ü ↑ ß Enter
Alt Fn Sym , . Space - ← ↓ → Ctrl
On the Scandinavian Qwerty keyboard there are labels Æ Ø Å on the keys which have Ö Ä ß on the German Qwertz keyboard (for 6 languages, actually there are double or triple letter labels on two keys: ÖÆ ÄØ).
And for the Qwerty/Qwertz layout on the same keyboard, there are double labels also on the YZ and ZY keys. Now, please don't stick to details, good localizers surely know what labels there are. The full-size Qwerty keyboard is the most important reference, but some modifications need to be done to make it possible to use the same keyboard variant (keymat) for several languages. For example, with only a few minor modifications, a special 7-language keyboard can be made for Germany and Nordic countries (Iceland, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Estonia), and perhaps a couple of more countries.
http://talk.maemo.org/attachment.php...1&d=1382222624
The number keypad area is highlighted here with bold blue numbers. They are written as the combinations of letter keys and the Fn key.
Esc Q W E R T 1 2 3 O P Backspace
Tab A S D F G 4 5 6 L ; '
⌂⌂⌂ Z X C V B 7 8 9 ↑ = Enter
Alt Fn Sym , . Space 0 ← ↓ → Ctrl
The 0 key is below the 8 key, like in the photo (but moved next to the Spacebar). This diagram only displays the principle were the number labels are; the other characters of the Fn + letter-key combinations are not marked in the above diagram. (those labels to be printed in the same color as the Fn key).
There is no CAPS LOCK key (press the ⌂ twice to turn on CAPS LOCK, like on virtual keyboards). But there is the Sym key, for the "multitapping" method to enter letter variants, and for an array of additional special characters and symbols (opened by pressing once the Sym key). If more space is wanted, perhaps the functions of the Sym and Alt key combined to use the same key.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Hi Egon,
That makes quite big keys seeing the size of the device (2 cm taller than the Jolla) and small number of keys, if we compare with other phones with keyboard. It is perhaps the reason you find it better ?

I find that French keyboard tends to not be good on small keyboards. I usually stick to english Qwerty which works better, as French is still readable when you throw out accents...

Anyway, as we are talking of this, here is the "AZERTY" layout we have on french keyboards (green for the basic set, orange for the french specific set):
http://i.imgur.com/XrkpAPQ.png

Differences with QWERTY are :
- A <-> Q
- Z <-> W
- M <-> ";"
- special characters are spread out everywhere
- frequently used accented letter are shared with numbers (é, è, ç, à). The HUGE difference is that numbers are reached using the shift key, whereas in english, number are directly reachable and shift key is for special characters!
- there is also the "ù"
- for other less common accents (like ê, ï, ...), we have to first type the "^" or with shift "¨" key, then the letter...

It doesn't really fits well on small keyboard (looks like german or scandinavian fits better), so I generally prefer to stay on QWERTY on small devices, even if I use AZERTY on my computers.

Qwerty and Azerty 4 x 12 HWKB / ... design and configuration
 

No, I don't know the size of the phone and keyboard in your photo. I mean how aethetically well balanced the layout of the keyboard is, there are all the four arrow keys, enough keys for language-localizing, etc. And it fits to a small size. Naturally I'd also appreciate an extra row of keys, but it may be difficult to build a 5-row keyboard for Jolla. If the keyboard slides out 70% or more of its total height, the remaining length of the rails may not be enough to make it durable enough (if you drop the phone + OH-keyboard, for example).
Yes, the French Azerty layout is quite a challenge. And there are enough challenges also with the localizing of other European languages. So, let's analyze them. To get an idea of what will be needed and what kind of compromises could be made with them, please activate the Español, French, French (Canada), Italiano, Magyar, Polski, Português and Română to N9 phone. Then edit text with MeeTxtEdit or Notes application, and change the keyboard layout by sliding your finger on the keyboard, starting from the left or right edge of the screen. You will notice that with 2 ... 4 "localizable" keys it is possible to use another variant of the 4 x 12 keyboard for several languages. The "localizable" keys are the same which have red labels in the layout picture of my previous comment. Depending on the activated keyboard-driver variant, they can work as sticky accent keys (like the accent keys of the Spanish, Italian, Hungarian and Polish keyboards of N9, and like the accent keys of full-size HW keyboards), or as a letter (such as Ñ for Spanish, Ç for Portuguese, Catalan etc, as well as Ł Ę Ą for Polish, ...). But the text entry on the new kind of multilingual keyboard does not match completely with the ease of choosing more letter variants on virtual keyboards (done by tapping and holding your key on a key and sliding onto the wanted character). But thanks to the use of four "localizable" keys, also those letter variants can be entered with sticky accent keys, for most languages. For example, for Portuguese texts, just like they can be written with the Portuguese full-size Qwerty keyboard.

Because on the relatively small outbowing keys it is difficult to add more than 2 or 3 backlighted labels, the labels on the "localizable" keys won't match with the letters of all the languages of a multilingual keyboard variant. But because there are not more than 2 ... 4 "localizable" keys, they can be memorized easily, because all the other labels (also those of the Fn layer) match with what you get with each key. For example, even if there were printed ÇÑ on a key, it does prevent Polish people to use it for their Ł letter. Or, if a key has the ^Ę label, Hungarian people can use it as the sticky ˝ key for their ű and ő letters. In this way the number of country or language specific kayboard variants (i.e. the number of keymats) can be reduced, just like can be done with the 7 or more languages of Northern Europe.

Although for France can be made double labels on the QA, WZ, AQ, and ZW keys, a separate Azerty keymat might be more useful for France (then also the new kind of key coding on the right-thumb side of the N and L keys would not become too complicated). Another reason is that the text entry is very different also in other respects. For example, part of the "French" letters are typed with sticky accent keys and part are written with their individual keys on full-sized Azerty keyboards. So, even though the French Azerty variant of the 4 x 12 HW keyboard would not be 100% perfect, it would match with the needs of most French people a lot better than the Qwerty/Qwertz variants of the same OH-keyboard. Also a "South European & Latin American" Azerty/Qwerty/Qwertz keyboard (one with QA, WZ, AQ, ZWY and YZ keys) might be preferred by French people, instead of the English Qwerty keyboard.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

On the N900, the enter, delete and shift keys (and all other function keys) are all the same size as the standard keys. Only space is larger; exactly two standard keys wide (and to the side).

I was a little concerned the first time I saw this, but my experience is that it makes no difference at all. Having an enter key the same size as my 'a' key works just perfectly, and just like I rarely hit the wrong key when trying to type 'a', I rarely hit the wrong key when trying to type 'enter'.

So I am wondering, is there really a real reason for a larger backspace, enter, delete, shift, ctrl and so on? Or is that perhaps just a myth? Have other N900-users experienced problems with hitting the right key when they try to hit, for example, enter? Maybe a larger number of keys (duplicted ctrl and shift) or a tighter keyboard (less reach for distant keys) is more valuable than larger keys?

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

N900 keyboard was perfect, but I have to say that from economy point of view, very few people will buy it. If I was Jolla, I wouldn't waste effort of a small company on physical keyboard. If it is popular enough, some other company may develop it. Just like you can get excellent physical keyboard for iphone from third party sellers.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Just saw this pic at www.jollausers.com
http://www.jollausers.com/wp-content...ge-648x375.png

Did you notice that little Jolla logo on the right side ? ;)

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

+1

I have always assumed that larger control keys - which, incidentally, always happen to be at the edge - are nothing but a side-effect of the staggered layout of the main keys. To keep the left and right edge nicely level, the edge keys have to be wider. Nothing more to it.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

It's only fan art, but done great with attention to details !
Coming from here (as said in the article source) : https://twitter.com/capricotwi04/sta...27674147581952

I don't know which keyboard he took as a reference, seeing the "SMS/MMS" and "Mail" direct access buttons ?

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

You stefanmohl are absolutely right about the size: the modifier and Enter keys do not need to be any larger than the letter keys, if also those keys have a spherical shape which is outbowing enough. If you look at the spherical key elements in the photo on top of the http://www.tactustechnology.com/technology.html page, you'll see that it will not become any easier to hit the correct key if you combine two adjacent key "bubbles" so that they get a cylindrical shape. The point is 'orientation': you will more or less subconsciously feel with your thumbtips where the center of each key is, prior to pressing the key.

So it is best to make also the Shift, Enter, Fn, Backspace, Sym keys as small as the other keys. Also spacebar could have the same size as the letter keys, but it best to make it two key widths wide, in order to make it easily identified. And please remember not to make the keys too flat!

On virtual keyboards it is OK to make keys like #123 and Shift larger than the letter keys, becauses on touch screens there is nothing which could help you to feel where the key centers are (orientation is helped mainly by your eyes only). Whether also the Enter key of a virtrual Qwerty keyboard should be a big one, depends on the purpose for which it is needed. Personally I think that the Enter key does not need to be especially la, in order to provide enough space for labels, such as OK, Send or Search, and the corresponding language-localized labels. What finally matters more is the place where you put a Send key, for example. I cannot understand the designers of some messaging applications which put a Send key close to the frequently hit Backspace key: if you accidentally hit the Send key (when trying to hit the Backspace), your unfinished message may be sent, if there is no "Are you sure..." reminder.

There are certain reasons why the modifier and Enter keys on the left and right-hand edges of full-sized Qwerty keys are made bigger than letter keys. One of them is the fact that those who have the more or less perfect "10-finger touch-typing" skill, hit those keys with their little fingers, the pointing and hitting accuracy of which is a lot worse than that of the other fingers of your hands.

Why some phone companies still try to make their Qwerty keyboards look like the appearance of full-size Qwerty keyboards? I believe that it is because of the ancient obsessions of arts designers and marketing people who don't know much about the ergonomics and other factors which affect text entry, and apparently do not want to listen to specialists. Their misconseption is that a Qwerty phone sells best if the keyboard looks like a 'real full-size keyboard'. For the same reason they are eager to make the outbowing keys lower than required by ergonomics (in order to make the phone 0.1 or 0.2 mm thinner), and to arrange the key columns tilted, more or less in the same way as on full-sized Qwerty keyboards. Actually there are no reasons to do so - it is better arrange the keys in vertical columns, like on the keyboard of http://talk.maemo.org/attachment.php...1&d=1382222624 . The result of such poor design is: most of the few hardware Qwerty keyboards on the market have a poor quality, which is one of the reasons why there are so many misconceptions of whether HW keyboards are needed or not. For these reasons it is the duty of people who know something about text entry and its ergonomics, to remind that it is not only the the "marketing specs" that matter - also certain facts of text entry should be taken into account.

Re: Qwerty and Azerty 4 x 12 HWKB / ... design and configuration
 

The phone is 68mm large, so 70% would give 47mm out, and 20mm for support. If it is enough to hold it (I don't know... anyone can mesure this on a n900, e7 or n950 ?), then we can have 1cm tall key on 4 rows, or about 8mm tall keys on 5 rows.
For the width, the phone is 131mm. If 5mm on each side is enough for the sliding mechanisms, we have 120mm remaining.
So for a 12x4 matrix, keys would be about square of 1cm.
For 14x5 (the heavy layout I proposed), it would make them a square of about 8 mm.
I don't know what are the acceptable mini and maxi limits for key size...

After thinking a bit more of these problems, I now see that for myself I don't want a keyboard to only type text. What you propose is probably the way to go to provide a keyboard to fit SMS/Mail usage, for everyone.
What I want, is a developer keyboard that will allow me to do almost anything where I need to bring my laptop now (I work most of the day with embedded devices): take control of devices through SSH and use command line, and vi (so needs easy access to keys like Escape, :, |, >, <, &, ', ", `, $, ^, \, /, tab), take control though VNC of desktop application (so need to do almost any shortcut as possible... like CTRL or ALT+something) edit some code (needs symbols like [ ] ( ) { } # -> . _ " ' / \ : + - = * % | &), and finally naviguate more easily through text (so shortcuts like CTRL+Left/Right/Home to naviguate per words or to the top). Of course I also need to type text like for mails or sms, so the punctation is needed too (. , ; : ! ? ( ) " - ), some special characters (€, %, @) and numbers.
I can see now that we are not trying to solve the same problem. It may be that I am completely wrong and that this can be done with less keys using some combinations, and stay ergonomic.

If there are owners of n900 or n950 here that would share their feeling about that kind of usage, I would be really interested in their feedback !

Anyway the good point is this difference is only in the layouting (and key size obviously), but they still share everything else : the electronics, mechanical slide, backlight, ... can be the same.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

That "fan art" sample is just another "English only" keyboard: too few keys are available for decent language-localizing. Yes, some attention has been paid to details, but not enough to make it "international".
http://talk.maemo.org/attachment.php...1&d=1382299195
Fortunately this keyboard is easy to improve: shrink the Shift and Enter keys to the size of other keys, and you will get two more keys, which allows it to be localized for different languages; see my other posts in this thread. The keyboard can be improved further by replacing the marginal SMS/MMS and Mail direct access buttons with ordinary keys (for SYM and hyphen - for example). The UI of smartphones is full of all kinds of shortcuts and icons to messaging application. Therefore I don't see any reasons why the limited space of keyboards should be misused for the direct access buttons to messaging.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Yes, I was simply refering to the image when saying great and with attention of details. When comparing to what I can do with gimp, this guy has made an image that look real !

Yes. My question of which keyboard he used as a reference was only to see how far in time he went to find such shortcuts. Not a single layout presented here had these, for the reason you explained.

Re: Qwerty and Azerty 4 x 12 HWKB / ... design and configuration
 

I believe that no exact rule about the key sizes can be defined. Actually, it is not the exact size, but the shape and tactical feel (the "click" of the keys, etc) which matter most for keyboards on which you enter text with your thumbs. The dimension of each keys is rather the result of various dimensions, such as the maximum allowed distance to the most distant keys in the center of the keyboard.
I believe that more than 5 mm of free space will be needed on the edges of the keyboard. Also on top of the keyboard, where the edge of the phone is above the top edge of the visible part of the keyboard. Mock-up samples which have the final dimensions and weight will be needed for tests, because your grip on the phone + keyboard OH may be diffent from the grip you hold N900, for example - also the shape and thickness of the left and right edges affect the grip. The difference is caused by the fact that the center of gravity is quite low in the Qwerty half of N900, but in the combinations of Jolla + keyboard OH the center of gravity would be quite high in the Jolla phone.
Yes, some potential buyers of the keyboard OH apparently want a "Hacker's English-only keyboard", and some want an advanced HW keyboard on which they can write text in their own language(s), almost as easily as using a Qwerty keyboard which is localized to their own language(s). But finally the diffences of these 2 types of keyboards are quite small. Also with a 5 x 12 or 4 x 12 keyboard with 4 arrow keys you will be able to enter a wide choice of characters: the :, |, >, <, &, ', ", `, $, ^, \, /, etc characters will be found on the keys, in the same color as the Fn key. And a wider choice of less frequently needed symbols and characters could be found on a virtual keyboard array, which would open by pressing the SYM key. And the whole choice of letter variants could be entered both on a virtual keyboard and by combining the SYM key with a letter key, quite in the same way as with the AltGr key of full-sized keyboards. The use of the suggested "5 x 15 hacker's keyboard" would be quite limited, because the language-specific letters of each language simply are not entered with the combinations of letter keys and modifier keys (Fn, Sym, etc). For most European languages will be needed typically 2 ... 4 keys (of letter variants, or sticky accents) which are found on the right-hand side of the keyboard. English and perhaps Dutch are among the few exceptions in this respect.

It looks that by now practically all smartphone companies have gone wrong by designing HW and virtual keyboards first for the English language. The best way to avoid that mistake is to design the layout so that it can be localized to several languages. The best way to accomplish this is to add about 4 extra keys, and in the first prototypes not to stick too tightly to the English layout only. How to do it can be read in my other comments in this thread.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Magic of google images: save the picture, cut everything that is not the keyboard layout, pass it to GI, and the answer is: HTC S740 :D

BTW: let's suppose that Jolla is indeed preparing a OH kbd for worldwide users. If 100 is the cost of designing & manufacturing a keyboard in only one possible layout, does anybody know what would be the cost to support many layouts ?